'Premier League' Heritage Railways

[Calthrop]

Category 5
Really don't bother with this railway...

Getting a bit off the thread's strict topic (and having in mind that IMO anyway, this whole thing is more than a little subjective): this prompts thoughts of a, to me, wickedly funny passage in the book Map Addict by Mike Parker: referring, on the subject of "tourist" things marked on modern Ordnance Survey maps, to a certain "lesser light" in the preservation movement, whose name I won't mention here; but which strikes the book's author and me, as very definitely "Category 5". He writes: "There should be a special symbol for these toy trains that doesn't confuse them with the real thing: my suggestion would be a pictogram of a grinning old man dragging a reluctant grandson along. Such an image could be misconstrued, I realise, but perhaps not entirely without justification."

 

[bramling]

Correct. It’s run as a multi million pound business with the boats, buses and trains. In 2016 it turned a profit of £1.4m on a £5m turnover.
Sir William McAlpine was one of the largest share holders at the last set of accounts. Unsure how that stands since his death.
The railway staff I believe all hold PRIV passes as well.

Quite a few railways have staff holding PRIVs. In the case of something like Snowdon Mountain Railway it offers a very hefty discount in return.

 

[E759]

Ones i like Hence why the ELR isnt on there. I found it dreary and boring tbh

Does that summing up include the bars and beer on offer? Can't believe dreary and boring applies to the excellent beverages on offer at the ELR

Provision of good beer and cider is an important criteria I think given the demand I see from enthusiasts

 

[E759]

As far as I'm concerned a railway can only be in the 'Premier League' if it has a main-line connection, or is actively working to establish one. By 'a main-line connection' I mean it should be feasible and easy to arrive as a passenger off the network and transfer to the heritage line without resorting to road transport, and even better, in addition to this, a physical rail connection to enable incoming charter traffic or visiting locomotives to transfer to the heritage line.
So the Llangollen or GWSR are not in my definition of Premier League railways, whatever their other attributes. Hopefully the GWSR will extend to Honeybourne at some time in the future, but the Llangollen seems content to remain isolated, so I have never visited.

Llangollen is just about ok, the bus has WiFi and USB charging points although the driver won't tell you when to get off so you need to use Google Maps for your first trip.

GWSR definitely suffers from a bus and walk, or just walk the whole thing as the bus stops in middle o town for 5 minutes, to complicate the getting there. I did it in good weather on Monday 27/8 but if it had been raining then I just know I would have arrived in a foul mood and would find it difficult to enjoy. [It also takes a stupidly long time to get to Cheltenham by train, 5 hours for me, compared to only 5 hours 20 minutes to Weardale which is over twice the distance... Still, not the fault of GWSR.]

Another point loss for the GWSR is the lack of any meaningful gradient. The locos never really have to work hard. Travelled behind 3 different kettles, plus their immaculate 37, and very little soot. Soot Factor 2 I think I'd award. This is in marked contrast to smaller lines with smaller kettles and some good gradients where you can get drenched in soot.

 

[4141]

Another point loss for the GWSR is the lack of any meaningful gradient. The locos never really have to work hard. Travelled behind 3 different kettles, plus their immaculate 37, and very little soot. Soot Factor 2 I think I'd award. This is in marked contrast to smaller lines with smaller kettles and some good gradients where you can get drenched in soot.

I blame the GWR for originally choosing the most favourable route to avoid steep climbs - but I do take your point.

 

[philthetube]

Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch - If you scaled it up would blow all the others out the water with double track running, scale 75 mph speeds and Pacifics everywhere...

Dartmouth Steam Railway - The only one that pays its shareholders a profit I believe? Still bringing trainloads of passengers into the town.

The Swanage - Beautiful scenery, taking traffic off the local roads. Mainline connection with railtours arriving at a seaside destination.

It’s completely subjective as others have said. No one railway has every single positive thing to tick all the boxes.
You could draw up some kind of chart with different headings and decide what things count for a certain amount of points, i.e - mainline connection, atmosphere of stations, places served etc and tally them all up for each line.

Or you could just not worry about it too much and go to the pub instead.

Great post, especially the first line!

 

[E759]

Great post, especially the first line!

You meant the last not first line of course

 

[philthetube]

Someone already got in with the first line, so I picked the next best.

 

[UP13]

Took my two little ones to the RH&DR. They loved it. We rode behind JB Snell (will always be John Southland to me), Hercules, Winston Churchill and Southern Maid. Beautiful machines and my wife made the point that they look more well turned out than standard gauge engines. They were the ideal size for my kids and it was fun watching trains whizz past on the mainline.

Also I feel that the railway goes between two different worlds - Dungeness and it's landscape feels completely alien to leafy Hythe or the marshes between Dymchurch and New Romney. Are they any other railways that can boast such a contrast in landscapes?

 

[Flying Phil]

The McAlpine Estate now holds the shares, and Jeremy Hosking's increased his shareholding in the company since then. In 2017 the company made a profit, post tax, of £406,916. The year prior the company itself made a record profit, but a huge portion of this came with a one off sale of £950k, which was used to settle a loan that had no penalties for early payment.

=========================

As for "what defines a premier league line" I'd say it would be general appeal and economic impact if it wasn't there. Between them, the WHR and FR draw in a staggering £25m in extra economic activity per year. When the SVR closed due to the track erosion businesses actually went to the wall due to the drop in people coming to the region. Even a "tiny" line like the KWVR can count itself as a member of the Premier League due to its ability to nab the Bronte crowd and historically interesting stock roster.

So, a Premier League Line should generally go from "somewhere" to "somewhere" ideally with both ends of the line being interesting places in their own right. They should encourage people out of their cars for day trips through an area that might otherwise be clogged up with traffic and, hopefully, act as an initial "draw" for a family or couple to head to the region to begin with.

So the Premier League is still defined as a bit nebulous, but there are probably around 10-15 or so railways that can consider themselves in this bracket. (Out of around 100+ or so railways...) The top of my head list is below, showing 14 that fit this category.

• Severn Valley Railway
• Keighley and Worth Valley Railway
• WHR&FR
• Talyllyn Railway
• Kent and East Sussex
• Gloucester & Warwickshire Steam Railway
• Dartmouth Steam Railway
• North Yorkshire Moors Railway
• Bluebell Railway
• Swanage Railway
• West Somerset Railway
• East Lancs Railway
• Strathspey Railway
• Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway

We are indeed lucky to have so many lines that could be considered "Premier League" but the Great Central Railway really should be included as it has 6 miles of double track, Swithland Sidings complex, four different themed stations, usually three or more locomotives in steam every weekend - more for Gala events......and its own branch line!

 

[Cowley]

We are indeed lucky to have so many lines that could be considered "Premier League" but the Great Central Railway really should be included as it has 6 miles of double track, Swithland Sidings complex, four different themed stations, usually three or more locomotives in steam every weekend - more for Gala events......and its own branch line!

Absolutely. There’s no other railway like the GCR.
I remember being at a diesel gala a few years ago traveling behind a class 25 through Swithland sidings when a 37 stormed past us in the opposite direction flat out. My mate jumped at the sudden noise and I had to remind him that it was a common occurrence back in the day when we were out bashing. In fact the sound of it passing would normally have meant that we’d missed our ‘minus two’ at Taunton (or wherever) and would now have to spend an hour waiting on a platform feeling disappointed...
The GCR is very special.

 

[Clip]

Top of the North West Counties Premier League:-

Ribble Steam Railway

 

[MK Tom]

• Severn Valley Railway
• Keighley and Worth Valley Railway
• WHR&FR
• Talyllyn Railway
• Kent and East Sussex
• Gloucester & Warwickshire Steam Railway
• Dartmouth Steam Railway
• North Yorkshire Moors Railway
• Bluebell Railway
• Swanage Railway
• West Somerset Railway
• East Lancs Railway
• Strathspey Railway
• Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway

If we're counting Welsh narrow gauge the Vale of Rheidol is longer and more scenic than the Tallylln arguably. But I really feel narrow gauge is its own distinct category.

For me there's really just two ends of the scale, one being the big railways that have been going since the 60s/70s, have 3+ stations, a fully restored period look, large varied loco/carriage fleets, can operate multi-train services, draw big crowds and run weekday services at least some of the year. I'd certainly include the North Norfolk and the Llangollen in this top tier category, if perhaps at the smaller end of it.

Then at the other end there's the little one-station and a bit of track operations, some of which are going for a small branch line feel (think Mid Suffolk Light Railway) and others that are just general heritage railway working museums not going for any particular image or period. They're much more 'for' the enthusiast but they still have mainstream appeal as a small local day out rather than a major attraction.

And then you also have lines working their way from one to the other. The Mid Norfolk is very much in that category, as well as an emerging first example of a line really consciously trying to go for a 1960s-1980s period look.

EDIT

Having said all of that the examples of the Wensleydale, Weardale and GCR(N) Railways have just occured to me, all of which are 'top tier' in terms of length and station count but much more akin to the smaller operations in their look, feel and audience appeal.

 

[Bedpan]

Two things that I think warrant high scores are the "busyness" of of the railway, and also the visibility from the carriage window. Re busyness, I mean sitting on a station platform and having comings and goings and a lot going on, whilst as far as visibility is concerned, I don't mean how scenic the countyside is, but how much of it you could actually see.

I went to the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire a couple of years ago and it was a pleasure to be able to look out of the window all of the way without having the view obscured by lineside vegetation. They had a DMU running from Laverton to Winchcombe (of necessity as far as Laverton was concerned, as of course no run round facilities there) and a loco hauled service from Cheltenham Racecourse to Toddington. so to go from end to end yiou had to change trains which made for a good experience - different trains going to different destinations made it feel as though you were changing at a country junction, even though you weren't, added to which there were twice as many trains coming and going as there would otherwise have been. (Moreso, I don't think I've been on a first generation DMU since the 70s or 80s so that was good in itself).

Then a few years back we were at Bewdley, arriving too late for a round trip, so sat on the platform for an hour or so. As well as a couple of passenger trains heading towards Kidderminster there was activity in the yard and also at least one light engine coming back from Kidderminster. Mrs Bedpan enjoyed the activity despite having no interest in railways.

That is not to say that smaller railways are not just as enjoyable. Catch a train at the wonderful Chinnor station and you wait on the platform for the train to arrive (admittedly only from the yard), and then have a ride that is in many ways more authentic, 25mph and a small tank loco being more authentic for a country branch line than a "big" railway.

 

[reddragon]

As far as I'm concerned a railway can only be in the 'Premier League' if it has a main-line connection, or is actively working to establish one. By 'a main-line connection' I mean it should be feasible and easy to arrive as a passenger off the network and transfer to the heritage line without resorting to road transport, and even better, in addition to this, a physical rail connection to enable incoming charter traffic or visiting locomotives to transfer to the heritage line.
So the Llangollen or GWSR are not in my definition of Premier League railways, whatever their other attributes. Hopefully the GWSR will extend to Honeybourne at some time in the future, but the Llangollen seems content to remain isolated, so I have never visited.

At least the GWsR can / hopes to connect at one or both ends, whereas the Llangollen cannot as the track bed is blocked all ways

 

[Belperpete]

I think that this discussion has got confused between what are people's personal "best" and what are the generally-agreed premier-league railways. My understanding has always been that the premier-league lines are those that bring in serious numbers of visitors, and serious numbers of volunteers, so that they have the clout to do significant things. At the other end of the scale are the tuppeny-halfpenny operations who spend decades never really progressing very much. Whether they run through attractive scenery, serve good beer, have a mainline connection or not, whether you personally would want to visit again, are all irrelevant.

So the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, Bluebell are definitely in the premier-league. I would struggle to include the cash-strapped Talyllyn in the premier-league these days, even though it is one of my favourites to visit. Likewise the Llangollen is another favourite of mine, but I would struggle to include it in the premier-league: no question it is achieving things, but it doesn't have the passenger numbers and clout to achieve them very quickly.
Some lines, such as the SVR and Bluebell, have an inherent advantage in being near to major centres of population. Others, like the F&WH and NYMR, are in major tourist catchment areas. But there are plenty of other lines, such as the K&WVR, that have these advantages that I would struggle to include in the premier-league.
An interesting case is the Ecclesbourne Valley, a relative newcomer that is achieving big things relatively quickly, but probably doesn't yet have the passenger numbers to put it in the premier-league.

 

[UP13]

I think that this discussion has got confused between what are people's personal "best" and what are the generally-agreed premier-league railways. My understanding has always been that the premier-league lines are those that bring in serious numbers of visitors, and serious numbers of volunteers, so that they have the clout to do significant things. At the other end of the scale are the tuppeny-halfpenny operations who spend decades never really progressing very much. Whether they run through attractive scenery, serve good beer, have a mainline connection or not, whether you personally would want to visit again, are all irrelevant.

So the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, Bluebell are definitely in the premier-league. I would struggle to include the cash-strapped Talyllyn in the premier-league these days, even though it is one of my favourites to visit. Likewise the Llangollen is another favourite of mine, but I would struggle to include it in the premier-league: no question it is achieving things, but it doesn't have the passenger numbers and clout to achieve them very quickly.
Some lines, such as the SVR and Bluebell, have an inherent advantage in being near to major centres of population. Others, like the F&WH and NYMR, are in major tourist catchment areas. But there are plenty of other lines, such as the K&WVR, that have these advantages that I would struggle to include in the premier-league.
An interesting case is the Ecclesbourne Valley, a relative newcomer that is achieving big things relatively quickly, but probably doesn't yet have the passenger numbers to put it in the premier-league.

Great post.

 

[bramling]

I think that this discussion has got confused between what are people's personal "best" and what are the generally-agreed premier-league railways. My understanding has always been that the premier-league lines are those that bring in serious numbers of visitors, and serious numbers of volunteers, so that they have the clout to do significant things. At the other end of the scale are the tuppeny-halfpenny operations who spend decades never really progressing very much. Whether they run through attractive scenery, serve good beer, have a mainline connection or not, whether you personally would want to visit again, are all irrelevant.

So the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, Bluebell are definitely in the premier-league. I would struggle to include the cash-strapped Talyllyn in the premier-league these days, even though it is one of my favourites to visit. Likewise the Llangollen is another favourite of mine, but I would struggle to include it in the premier-league: no question it is achieving things, but it doesn't have the passenger numbers and clout to achieve them very quickly.
Some lines, such as the SVR and Bluebell, have an inherent advantage in being near to major centres of population. Others, like the F&WH and NYMR, are in major tourist catchment areas. But there are plenty of other lines, such as the K&WVR, that have these advantages that I would struggle to include in the premier-league.
An interesting case is the Ecclesbourne Valley, a relative newcomer that is achieving big things relatively quickly, but probably doesn't yet have the passenger numbers to put it in the premier-league.

This is an interesting and insightful post. Out of interest, which heritage railways are those most comfortable financially?

 

[E759]

I think that this discussion has got confused between what are people's personal "best" and what are the generally-agreed premier-league railways. My understanding has always been that the premier-league lines are those that bring in serious numbers of visitors, and serious numbers of volunteers, so that they have the clout to do significant things. At the other end of the scale are the tuppeny-halfpenny operations who spend decades never really progressing very much. Whether they run through attractive scenery, serve good beer, have a mainline connection or not, whether you personally would want to visit again, are all irrelevant.

So the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, Bluebell are definitely in the premier-league. I would struggle to include the cash-strapped Talyllyn in the premier-league these days, even though it is one of my favourites to visit. Likewise the Llangollen is another favourite of mine, but I would struggle to include it in the premier-league: no question it is achieving things, but it doesn't have the passenger numbers and clout to achieve them very quickly.
Some lines, such as the SVR and Bluebell, have an inherent advantage in being near to major centres of population. Others, like the F&WH and NYMR, are in major tourist catchment areas. But there are plenty of other lines, such as the K&WVR, that have these advantages that I would struggle to include in the premier-league.
An interesting case is the Ecclesbourne Valley, a relative newcomer that is achieving big things relatively quickly, but probably doesn't yet have the passenger numbers to put it in the premier-league.

You're missing the Snowdon Mountain Railway from your list; 130K visitors pa in 2014. GCR was 130K in 2016.

One other thought, do the clubs with the biggest gate always win their league? Or is it the club which scores the most points, irrespective of gate and gate receipts?

PS: Clout means influence. I'm guessing the word you were looking for is cash.

 

[Belperpete]

I would include the Dartmouth line in the premier league: it is steadily improving itself, not just struggling to maintain the status quo. The Snowdon no doubt attracts lots of visitors, but is it making enough income to maintain and improve itself? The last time I looked at Llanberis station, it looked decidedly dilapidated.

Clout no doubt has a lot to do with cash. But some railways manage to achieve a lot of clout with relatively little cash, if they have the right people behind them (such as the EVR). Clout is I think more to do with success - people are attracted to lines that are seen to be successful, to be achieving things. Likewise councils, grant-givers and such-like are much more likely to cooperate with enterprises that are perceived to be successful.

{One other thought, do the clubs with the biggest gate always win their league? Or is it the club which scores the most points, irrespective of gate and gate receipts?}
Just because a club wins the FA cup does not mean it gets to be in the premier league.

 

[A Challenge]

The problem with the WSR is that has a rail connection but it isn't used much, and unlike the Bluebell for example it's a very long way, so not doable to walk.

 

[Belperpete]

For obvious reasons, whether a line is rail-connected or not is important to many on this forum. However, most if not all lines get the bulk of their passengers by road. So whether a line is rail-connected or not has little to do with whether it counts as a premier-league line. The Bluebell was a premier-league line long before it made it to East Grinstead, for example.
The last time I travelled on the WSR (admittedly quite awhile ago), it was fairly easily accessible by local bus. Certainly no greater walk than say to the GCR.
In Switzerland, bus and train are seen as one coordinated public transport system. Why do so many rail enthusiasts in this country seem to regard buses with antipathy?

 

[UP13]

The only time rail connections have been a necessity to me have been the ones at the Watercress for the RAT and the West Somerset Railway when we were staying on Somerset without a car. The one at Alton is very convenient but it was annoying getting the bus from Taunton to Bishop's Lydeard.

To be honest I now normally drive to the Watercress because it is cheaper and easier to drive. We do normally get a train to the Bluebell but only because it's a much simpler train journey for us and it's exciting for my little ones. It would be cheaper to drive.

I'm aware not everybody drives...

 

[E759]

The problem with the WSR is that has a rail connection but it isn't used much, and unlike the Bluebell for example it's a very long way, so not doable to walk.

22 mins by 28 bus every thirty minutes. I'm not seeing a problem. GWSR is a 20 minute bus plus a 15 minute walk. Given we're on

The problem with the WSR is that has a rail connection but it isn't used much, and unlike the Bluebell for example it's a very long way, so not doable to walk.

Number 28 Bus every 30 minutes will get you there from Taunton in 22 minutes. "Problem" solved

 

[E759]

For obvious reasons, whether a line is rail-connected or not is important to many on this forum. However, most if not all lines get the bulk of their passengers by road. So whether a line is rail-connected or not has little to do with whether it counts as a premier-league line. The Bluebell was a premier-league line long before it made it to East Grinstead, for example.
The last time I travelled on the WSR (admittedly quite awhile ago), it was fairly easily accessible by local bus. Certainly no greater walk than say to the GCR.
In Switzerland, bus and train are seen as one coordinated public transport system. Why do so many rail enthusiasts in this country seem to regard buses with antipathy?

GCR: Walk = 17 mins (no waiting)
WSR: Bus 16 mins + walk 6 mins = 22 mins (plus waiting for the bus)
Llangollen: Bus 17 mins + walk 8 mins = 25 mins (plus waiting for the bus)
NYMR: Bus 23 mins + walk 8 mins = 31 mins (plus waiting for the TPE plus waiting for the bus) [Been advised going Bus via York instead of Malton is best during these troubled times.]
GWSR: Bus 21 mins + walk 15 mins = 36 mins (plus waiting for the bus)

So in this public transport accessibility league (not all lines shown) GWSR comes bottom

I've seen many, many heritage rail enthusiasts use train plus bus to get to heritage lines. Sometimes the same people I doubt "so many rail enthusiasts in this country seem to regard buses with antipathy", it's just the usual internet forum thing where a few are representing the few not the many.

PS: Quite a few rail/heritage rail enthusiasts are also quite into buses too. I'm starting to go that way myself

 

[UP13]

22 mins by 28 bus every thirty minutes. I'm not seeing a problem. GWSR is a 20 minute bus plus a 15 minute walk. Given we're on

Number 28 Bus every 30 minutes will get you there from Taunton in 22 minutes. "Problem" solved

Extra time and money for a bus isn't that convenient for a line with a mainline connection.

It wasn't fun being at Bishop's Lydeard after leaving the last train to find you just missed a bus and have to wait nearly 30 mins with a tired family and not even have any more trains to watch. At least at East Grinstead or Alton you can sit on an EMU before it leaves.

 

[Shenandoah]

Convenience of connections is important for family visitors. It could explain why some lines, as evidenced by the previous post, fail to increase their passenger numbers.

 

[Calthrop]

Am moved to quote yorkie in post #2: official definition of heritage-railway premier-league-ness (my wording there) is "not an actual thing; it's effectively a figure of speech and highly subjective." Indeed: "premier league" in this connection, is essentially whatever one feels it to be -- and a variety of posters in this thread have thus defined it, according to their various fancies. For me, it's largely about whether a railway has a very-close-at-hand main-line connection and / or makes geographical sense as "linking somewhere with somewhere" -- I'm as much, and as little, entitled to characterise "premier league" thus, as is anyone else to put forward their favoured definition. I feel that in this thread, we should perhaps avoiding getting too deadly serious, in a spirit of regarding anybody's definition as having been handed down from on high on tablets of stone: none of them have been -- it's only a playing-field of different opinions.

 

[vlad]

In Switzerland, bus and train are seen as one coordinated public transport system. Why do so many rail enthusiasts in this country seem to regard buses with antipathy?

The Beeching Report recommended integrated transport.

 

[fireftrm]

[QUOTE="
NYMR: Bus 23 mins + walk 8 mins = 31 mins (plus waiting for the TPE plus waiting for the bus) [Been advised going Bus via York instead of Malton is best during these troubled times.]
[/QUOTE]
if coming from North then there is a direct connection at Grosmont - same station. From the south the wait between train and bus (at Malton) can be nearly an hour as they don not connect. From York is the bus you would have missed at Malton. Thgrough ticketing to Pickering and Whitby from LNER stations (its an LNER only ticket) though don't try and book on their website as the destinations don't show! Look on National Rail for pricing