Ticket Man
Member
Misconception - the train is more than willing to wait for you whilst you get a coffee
I have to say that I sympathise with them on this one, and I always think it's a tad crap that the service being run in lieu of the train doesn't allow the carriage of the same items the train itself would usually allow. It would annoy me if I didn't know any different!
Rail Replacement Services convey cycles, pushchairs, prams, dogs (other than working dogs) because the train does.
-- genuine query --
Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund? I certainly wouldn't be impressed if I'd bought a ticket to Wolverhampton and was bussed despite having a valid bus ticket [of course in reality one would get the metro and save money]
It doesn't seem unreasonable that if you paid for a train you should be able to get a train or not be punished for choosing not to travel
-- end of genuine query --....
Misconception -
Rail Replacement Services entitle passengers to travel free of charge between stops where the bus/coach calls.
A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket. The Companies are not obliged to use a train to fulfill that Contract.-- genuine query --
Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund?
. . . .
It doesn't seem unreasonable that if you paid for a train you should be able to get a train or not be punished for choosing not to travel
-- end of genuine query --
The following information may be helpful:-- genuine query --
Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund? ...
-- end of genuine query --
National Rail Conditions of Carriage
E. YOUR REFUND RIGHTS
26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used
If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all or part of your intended journey, then:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will, if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27.
(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a Train Companys ticket office (or a self-service machine) and you return your ticket at any Train Companys ticket office no later than 28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or
(c) if paragraph (a) does not apply, the ticket has been bought from a Train Companys telesales office or a Train Companys internet website and you return the ticket to an address notified by that Train Company no later than
28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or
(d) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a travel agent, if you return the ticket to that agent no later than 28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below).
Notes:
(i) The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.
(ii) In the case of a refund made under (b), (c), or (d) above, you may have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10).
(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example, those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.
(iv) In the case of a refund under (b), (c), or (d) above, you will not receive an immediate refund but your refund application will be processed as soon as reasonably practicable.
(v) In the case of an Electronic Ticket, the refund process may require you to allow the person making the refund to delete the stored ticket data or to demonstrate to that person that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of that ticket
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
My view is that, if a train is replaced by a bus after you have booked to travel by that train, then the train has been cancelled.Advance ticket terms and conditions
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html
DaveNewcastle said:A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket.
NRCoC said:(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will, if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27
So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.
Indeed, but...
It doesn't specify any-old means of getting you to your destination is OK, nor does it say that provision of a replacement bus does not constitute a cancellation of a train - it says "if the train you intended to use is cancelled"... So, if you chose not to travel when a booked train doesn't operate and bus is provided instead - a refund is possible.
Don't believe me? I few months ago I had a first advance on EMT from Nottingham to London and a bus was provided from Nottingham to Loughborough without any warning being provided when I bought the ticket - I refused to travel on a bus, asked for a refund to which EMT initially refused, but I argued the case and I got one. So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.
Andy
But probably only if the bus was laid on after you bought the tickets. If you bought the tickets in the knowledge that a replacement bus was in operation I don't think you'd have a leg to stand on.
There will be one hell of a argument on the first occasion I buy a rail ticket, NOT be specifically advised that part of the journey is a rail replacement, and then find a bus driver refusing to carry something the railway would carry.
In fact, I've had an argument about carrying stuff on a rail replacement bus in the past... A while ago I travelled on a replacement bus from Grantham to Nottingham. The bus driver wouldn't put any bags in the underfloor lockers - in fact at first he tried to say that suitcases couldn't be carried on the bus - but in the end a number of passengers ended up taking suitcases and other large bags into the passenger compartment. The bus driver then insisted they be placed in the aisle so that all the seats were available for passengers. I put my suitcase on the seat next to me and refused to move it into the aisle - on the basis that having an aisle full of bags and suitcases constituted a safety hazzard should a need to evacuate the bus quickly arise. The bus driver argued back... right up to the point where I wrote down the bus driver's badge number, took a cellphone picture of several suitcases obstructing the aisle, and told him I would be reporting him for operating unsafely...
Andy
A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket. The Companies are not obliged to use a train to fulfill that Contract.
If a passenger "chooses not to travel" then that is their unilateral decision to decline the arrangements made by the Railway Companies. Where the reason for choosing not to travel is the passenger's preference for trains and nothing more, then the only entitlement to any refund will be any entitlement which may be available on that type of ticket (irrespective of the reason for non-travel).
There may be consequential issues (e.g. missed connections or last trains of the day) which are jeapordised by a slower bus service, and if these mean that any of the corresponding provisions for delays or incomplete travel are triggered, then of course they would apply just as if a connecting train was late.
The following information may be helpful:
My view is that, if a train is replaced by a bus after you have booked to travel by that train, then the train has been cancelled.
Indeed, but...
It doesn't specify any-old means of getting you to your destination is OK, nor does it say that provision of a replacement bus does not constitute a cancellation of a train - it says "if the train you intended to use is cancelled"... So, if you chose not to travel when a booked train doesn't operate and bus is provided instead - a refund is possible.
Don't believe me? I few months ago I had a first advance on EMT from Nottingham to London and a bus was provided from Nottingham to Loughborough without any warning being provided when I bought the ticket - I refused to travel on a bus, asked for a refund to which EMT initially refused, but I argued the case and I got one. So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.
Andy
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?If a train has been replaced by a bus then that train has not been cancelled.
NRCoC says:
A Train Company may replace a train with a road vehicle
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?
The term train in this context includes any road
vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its behalf.
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?
Agreed. In this case of last minute replacement, If you decide not to travel then you would be entitled to a full refund. If it results in a delay to your journey then you should be able to claim for being delayed, either via delay repay or passenger's charter as appropriate. If however the bus has been advertised in advance via the usual channels - ie the timetable is amended and advertised in advance - then I would suggest that no compensation should be provided, assuming they run as per the revised timetable.If you arrive for a train service at, say 10:40 and an emergency replacement bus timetable has been implemented with the bus leaving at 11:10 and taking 30 minutes longer than the train, I'm sure you should be entitled to compensation under the relevant operator's passenger charter. However, probably not if the change is advertised in advance.
That person is either incredibly stupid and also liable to get worked up about things that do not concern them.... or, more likely, they're a troll.[name removed]: @FirstCC Ridiculous! What's the point of that? Wouldn't be great for car driving for example would it? And do I detect a hint of sarcasm?!?!
That person is either incredibly stupid and also liable to get worked up about things that do not concern them.... or, more likely, they're a troll.