Rail Travel Vouchers to be replaced by cash refunds/compensation.

[bnm]

Why, without any news on the finer detail, are folk so keen to write this off as being more costly to run?

We are chided constantly on this forum about speculating.

The solution to keeping the cost of delay compensation down is not to make it harder to claim or to make the time thresholds greater. It's to ensure the trains aren't bloody delayed in the first place.

Yes, some delays are unavoidable (suicides, trespass), but the vast majority are for operational reasons.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why not calculate entitlement by percentage delay, rather than fixed minutes? The answer seems obvious - to save money.

There is certainly an unfairness and I'm glad you highlighted that point. I wouldn't say it is to save money as no doubt there is another more complicated reason.

However; I would support any change towards compensating for the delays to those in your situation.

Was the system before "Delay repay" any better ?

 

[Via Bank]

On a related note, I would point out that C2C are going to be rolling out a very generous compensation mechanism for smartcard users that offers automatic compensation for delays of 2+ minutes (see page 15.)

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but in my view, if this proves to be a success, it should be the new standard for all freshly awarded franchises.

Back to the original topic in hand: this is good news. RTVs were a relic and should've gone away years ago. You couldn't get change from them, you couldn't use them online or on a ticket machine, they could only be used for railway travel, and they had an expiry date. Real money has none of these problems, so this should be a much more customer-friendly option.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I'm personally happy with the system as is. Sure, I've only used it twice so far (with a claim currently taking place), but I'm happy to receive RTVs, as any compensation I get I would use on future rail travel anyways.

Nevertheless, if this encourages more people who have the right to make claims to do so, then it's a welcome change to the system. A good example is my brother, who commutes to London every weekday for work. He regularly encounters delays with Great Northern but never claims because he finds little use for RTVs where his season ticket is paid for through his work and he rarely travels by rail otherwise. However, with this change, he's now more inclined to claim as he sees this as a way of getting a free Starbucks or two for each 30-minute+ delay :P

 

[gray1404]

I think its stupid for people who are entitled not to bother claiming. If every customer who was entitled to claim actually did so, it would be interesting to see if the TOCs made more proactive efforts to run a better, on time, railway. They would see the true and real cost in not running the trains on time (and having customers miss their connections)

 

[bb21]

Why, without any news on the finer detail, are folk so keen to write this off as being more costly to run?

We are chided constantly on this forum about speculating.

There is no speculation about it. Vouchers are accounted for differently to cash, and are treated differently in financial reporting. I won't go into finer details but anyone with any fairly sound knowledge about finance will understand that concept.

More importantly, as someone has already pointed out upthread, cash is a definite financial loss/cost, vouchers are only "speculative" losses/costs. You then have to consider that vouchers encourage some people to make additional journeys which they might not otherwise, and cash don't.

The transition from vouchers to cash, assuming that every other factor remains the same, will be more expensive, and if it encourages more people to claim, well, you do the sums. There are no ifs and buts about it. The money will have to come from somewhere. Savings on admin in that paper vouchers do not have to be issued is likely to be minimal, even if we consider that the vouchers are completely withdrawn from all uses. There will still need to be a system to issue "credit notes" or cheques and send them out for those people who do not want to provide their bank details. The labour costs of assessing each claim will still be there. You save on postage of the vouchers to many passengers, but increased banking activity will mean additional bank charges...

There is nothing majorly wrong with the current system. All that is needed imo is for Southern's practice of having compensation issued as e-vouchers to be rolled out across all operators, and it would be pretty much a perfect system.

The solution to keeping the cost of delay compensation down is not to make it harder to claim or to make the time thresholds greater. It's to ensure the trains aren't bloody delayed in the first place.

Yes, some delays are unavoidable (suicides, trespass), but the vast majority are for operational reasons.

All very good but not quite so easy on our ageing infrastructure. Things are improving on many fronts, but it will take a generation's investment in the hardware, and possibly longer, to improve matters fundamentally.

Meanwhile my scepticism remains about what this forthcoming change is really about. This is unlikely to be the only thing on the horizon. I'm sorry I am not jumping up and down about it. I would rather look beyond what is on the surface and evaluate deeper issues.

 

[bnm]

Or just be unnecessarily pessimistic.

If the cost of making this change is so bad, why is the industry going ahead with it?

 

[bb21]

If the cost of making this change is so bad, why is the industry going ahead with it?

Precise reason why I am sceptical.

 

[Hellfire]

This news is long overdue and I cannot understand the negative reactions of some on this thread. I'm sitting on £160 worth of vouchers from various delays n the WCML over the last nine months. my local station is unmanned so I either have to redeem them online, which reduces the range of tickets available, or drive 10 miles to the nearest station with a staffed ticket office having already suffered the delay that occasioned the issue of the vouchers in the first place.

I also don't understand the objections to the concept of delay repay. On VT it doesn't kick in until the train is more than 30 minutes late. That's a pretty significant amount of time. My worst journey was arriving two hours late on a two hour journey. I think I deserve some compensation for this and I think it should be paid in money, the same way I bought the original ticket.

All but one of the delays I have experienced have been due to infrastructure problems, either signalling failure or overhead wire problems. None of that is my fault so I expect some recognition that those failures caused me considerable inconvenience.

 

[34D]

I think its stupid for people who are entitled not to bother claiming. If every customer who was entitled to claim actually did so, it would be interesting to see if the TOCs made more proactive efforts to run a better, on time, railway. They would see the true and real cost in not running the trains on time (and having customers miss their connections)

Different people have different ideas of what forms of complaining are worth the hassle to them.

 

[AM9]

The air travel thing is ridiculous, too. Whilst I'd welcome a 650 euro cash payout after a 3 hour delay on a long haul journey there is no way I'd have suffered 650 euro worth of distress. It's just disproportionate. Most peoples tickets don't even cost that.

One persons minor inconvenience is another's major disruption, particularly to a short holiday. The price of the ticket is irrelevant, it's compensation not a one-sided withdrawl from the contract.

 

[talldave]

This news is long overdue and I cannot understand the negative reactions of some on this thread. I'm sitting on £160 worth of vouchers from various delays n the WCML over the last nine months. my local station is unmanned so I either have to redeem them online, which reduces the range of tickets available, or drive 10 miles to the nearest station with a staffed ticket office having already suffered the delay that occasioned the issue of the vouchers in the first place.

I also don't understand the objections to the concept of delay repay. On VT it doesn't kick in until the train is more than 30 minutes late. That's a pretty significant amount of time. My worst journey was arriving two hours late on a two hour journey. I think I deserve some compensation for this and I think it should be paid in money, the same way I bought the original ticket.

All but one of the delays I have experienced have been due to infrastructure problems, either signalling failure or overhead wire problems. None of that is my fault so I expect some recognition that those failures caused me considerable inconvenience.

Totally agree - but you forgot to mention having to pay to park at the station as well!

If I paid for tickets using some funny, unique to the rail industry, currency, then it might be fair that compensation is received in said made up currency. But if I pay online using a credit card, then TOCs should use the same mechanism in reverse to compensate me.

If the change doesn't result in an increase in claims, then TOC costs will go down - processing time, printing costs and postage for starters. If the change does result in an increase, so be it. Compensation costs must be miniscule compared to the total costs that contribute to ticket prices.

I'd rather the trains just ran to time. But that means spending more money on infrastructure components that don't fail between maintenance/replacement cycles.

 

[HORNIMANS]

I always thought if you paid with a card monies would be credited back to that card not Cash.

 

[transmanche]

I always thought if you paid with a card monies would be credited back to that card not Cash.

If it's a refund, yes. But Delay Repay payments aren't refunds...

 

[Andrew1395]

Cash refund for some might be less than say a taxi to get you home!

 

[AM9]

If it's a refund, yes. But Delay Repay payments aren't refunds...

Many people seem to confuse compensation payments with refunds. One day the delay repay system may come under EU compensation rules, i.e. the sum is determined by the distance or time spent travelling. If you have missed an appointment of a flight or show, the loss, inconvenience and or disappointment is the same whatever you paid for a ticket. By all means refund part of the ticket value which would cover the railway's failure to get you to your destination within a reasonable time, but if you cam prove actual loss/suffering as a result of the railway's failure, e.g. the waste of 2x£50 theatre tickets, then that should form the basis of calculating the sum to compensate you.

 

[bnm]

Cash refund for some might be less than say a taxi to get you home!

If your journey is delayed such that there is no alternative but a taxi home (or overnight accommodation - has anyone on this forum ever got accommodation for the night?) provided by a train company, then you may still be entitled to delay compensation (Delay Repay definitely, Passenger Charter maybe) in addition to said road transport or overnight accommodation.

 

[First class]

I would be more in favour of something like:

Delayed by x minutes:
Vouchers to 75% or
Cash to 50%

Of ticket value... Not exactly those percentages but the general idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if you cam prove actual loss/suffering as a result of the railway's failure, e.g. the waste of 2x£50 theatre tickets, then that should form the basis of calculating the sum to compensate you.

In that case the railway would, to be fair to it, need to have you give them details of what you were travelling to in advance and would be entitled to decline your carriage on that basis. They might not, for instance, want the risk of being sued over the failure to sign a large business contract.

More realistically, transport companies *never* compensate for consequential loss of that matter. If you want that cover, it is necessary to take out an insurance policy (though there are few if any insurance policies that cover domestic travel without an extended period away).
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Or just be unnecessarily pessimistic.

If the cost of making this change is so bad, why is the industry going ahead with it?

DfT insisting on it? Or maybe RTVs are genuinely too much hassle to administer.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Precise reason why I am sceptical.

I definitely understand the skepticism, but I suspect that the motivation is to do with pushing people away from ticket office counters.

I suspect that the industry are going ahead with this for the same reason they've mostly switched from Charter payments to Delay Repay: because they are being forced to.

 

[redbutton]

I definitely understand the skepticism, but I suspect that the motivation is to do with pushing people away from ticket office counters.

I suspect that the industry are going ahead with this for the same reason they've mostly switched from Charter payments to Delay Repay: because they are being forced to.

Or it could go the other way, they could copy Southern's model and still issue RTVs but with a facility to exchange them for cash at a ticket office. Given the low percentage that currently request compensation in the first place, they probably know that an even smaller percentage will actually exchange the RTV.

Then, as ticket offices are closed, fewer people will be able to use and exchange vouchers, but the TOCs will still be able to say "but we offer cash refunds!"

 

[SickyNicky]

If your journey is delayed such that there is no alternative but a taxi home (or overnight accommodation - has anyone on this forum ever got accommodation for the night?) provided by a train company, then you may still be entitled to delay compensation (Delay Repay definitely, Passenger Charter maybe) in addition to said road transport or overnight accommodation.

Despite what some TOCs might tell you! I had to assure the other people in the taxi from Newport to Hereford recently that they could claim for the delay, even though the member of staff at Newport had said that they wouldn't pay for both the taxi and delay.

Needless to say, we got our compensation.

 

[Starmill]

Given that it might make fraudulent claims a bit harder (and subject to greater penalties) I wonder if this will be universally welcomed by all who make regular claims. Also, the claims will be paid back to the penny - no more rounding it up to the nearest £5 or £10...

As far as I can tell a significant majority of compensation is already rounded up to the nearest £0.05. If that potential 4p is too much for you, CrossCountry and others issue RTVs to the exact amount already, so you can enjoy giving people their 3p change on the train. I think this is a moot point don't you?
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I don't welcome this. Hear me out..

I personally think a full cash refund for a 2 hour delay is excessive. I sometimes (Not very often anymore, it's now HALF the price to drive so it's difficult to make the case for rail) make a 4-5 hour rail journey. It is enormously irritating when I am delayed by 2 hours but I still get there - and my return leg is often on time - so to be able to travel this entire journey free of charge by virtue of a cash refund for a delay is whilst lovely for me incredible disproportionate.

Vouchers offer a slightly different form of compensation which I think is more appropriate to the inconvenience offered.

I agree. I think this will increase cost to the railway industry overall which is a bad thing. TOCs often cover liabilities they probably don't need to for the benefit of passengers e.g. compensation when the delay is unequivocally beyond the control of the industry, such as severe weather conditions. In that case why do they really need to provide cash? Vouchers are appropriate because they keep the money in the industry which encourages TOCs to offer them more generously in some cases.
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Indeed. I shall not be surprised if they haven't snuck in a raft of measures eroding passengers' rights but let the media focus on this one.

Absolutely. Anyone who thinks these changes will leave us mostly better off on the whole is going to be sorely disappointed I think!
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The solution to keeping the cost of delay compensation down is not to make it harder to claim or to make the time thresholds greater. It's to ensure the trains aren't bloody delayed in the first place.

Yes, some delays are unavoidable (suicides, trespass), but the vast majority are for operational reasons.

The only pertinent point, and often one with the least emphasis. I'd rather have my time to any of vouchers or money!

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. I think this will increase cost to the railway industry overall which is a bad thing. TOCs often cover liabilities they probably don't need to for the benefit of passengers e.g. compensation when the delay is unequivocally beyond the control of the industry, such as severe weather conditions. In that case why do they really need to provide cash? Vouchers are appropriate because they keep the money in the industry which encourages TOCs to offer them more generously in some cases.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

I fear that some of the better companies may be less inclined to give a passenger the benefit of the doubt if they have to give out hard cash, rather than a benefit in kind.

 

[Kite159]

I've just noticed that Southern gives you the option of having the delay repay money as e-vouchers to your Southern account.

Which could be handy if you buy tickets from the Southern website

 

[gray1404]

Does anybody know the date these changes will come into effect next month? It will be interesting if it will be based on date of receipt of claim or date of journey? I make this point because I am wondering, for those that would prefer cash (whatever form that takes e.g. cheque or BACs transfer) might be best waiting, given you have 28 days to claim, to submit their claims so they don't receive any further Rail Travel Vouchers.

 

[Starmill]

Does anybody know the date these changes will come into effect next month? It will be interesting if it will be based on date of receipt of claim or date of journey? I make this point because I am wondering, for those that would prefer cash (whatever form that takes e.g. cheque or BACs transfer) might be best waiting, given you have 28 days to claim, to submit their claims so they don't receive any further Rail Travel Vouchers.

You will just have to wait for an announcement by ATOC and the Train Companies. As none have been made that I am aware of, it might not even happen.

 

[Abpj17]

Goat boy - driving isn’t a choice for everyone so that’s an incredibly weak argument.

More broadly, vouchers are an outdated and poor form of compensation.They are completely inappropriate for commuters and occasional travellers - who would welcome the cash but the rail vouchers may time out before they take the train again. Or are very very delayed compensation - in common with a number of commuters I’ll have a stack of rail vouchers to buy my next annual ticket with. (I’m still cross that the previous scheme of %age discount of annual ticket wasn’t maintained for consistently poor service)

Compensation is meant to be compensation not revenue neutral. The act of having to pay compensation is meant to be an incentive to ensure better performance of trains.

 

[gray1404]

You will just have to wait for an announcement by ATOC and the Train Companies. As none have been made that I am aware of, it might not even happen.

Good point! I've not heard of any official announcement yet. However, I would like to think that given the BBC have reported it a couple of weeks ago that they would have not that information from somewhere reliable (such as a press release). Also, I remember reading somewhere about Transport Focus welcoming the move.

 

[Bristol Rover]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33583904

Is it known yet whether holders of existing rail vouchers can swap them for cash?

I've got about £100's worth, but the act of redeeming them is murder. My nearest station is un-manned, you can't use them on trains or online, and the only way I can redeem them for advance tickets is to travel to Temple Meads and queue up at the advance booking office (which invariably involves a tortuously slow moving queue).

This is why I've had my vouchers for 9 months and still haven't used them, despite regularly travelling by rail.