ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[DanNCL]

Surely a mix-up?

I can't see ScotRail leasing anymore HSTs except in the short term as cover.

Entirely possible that they may want to replace the GEC motored powercars with Brush motored powercars from LNER to provide a common fleet of powercars for maintenance, but that's just a guess.

 

[hexagon789]

Entirely possible that they may want to replace the GEC motored powercars with Brush motored powercars from LNER to provide a common fleet of powercars for maintenance, but that's just a guess.

It would make sense from a reliability point of view, the Brush motors are supposedly far more reliable.

 

[InOban]

I understood that the contract is with the ROSCO which owns the GWR sets, the LNER sets are unfortunately with a different owner.

 

[hexagon789]

I understood that the contract is with the ROSCO which owns the GWR sets, the LNER sets are unfortunately with a different owner.

Which precludes obtaining LNER power cars I take it?

 

[DanNCL]

I understood that the contract is with the ROSCO which owns the GWR sets, the LNER sets are unfortunately with a different owner.

The ROSCO that owns the ScotRail sets (Angel Trains) also owns more than half of the powercars that LNER currently use.

 

[sprinterguy]

The ROSCO that owns the ScotRail sets (Angel Trains) also owns more than half of the powercars that LNER currently use.

Which still wouldn't quite be sufficient power cars to replace all the GEC traction motor fitted examples.

Seems like a clear case of crossed wires in that tweet, the LNER HSTs weren't even supposed to be available before all the Scotrail HSTs were planned to be in service, hence Angel offering ex-GWR examples.

 

[DanNCL]

Which still wouldn't be sufficient power cars to replace all the GEC traction motor fitted examples.

Seems like a clear case of crossed wires in that tweet, the LNER HSTs weren't even supposed to be available before all the Scotrail HSTs were planned to be in service, hence Angel offering ex-GWR examples.

That's what I thought which is why I wanted to check on here that it was just an error

 

[hexagon789]

Seems like a clear case of crossed wires in that tweet, the LNER HSTs weren't even supposed to be available before all the Scotrail HSTs were planned to be in service, hence Angel offering ex-GWR examples.

Someone been using Wikipedia as a reference

 

[EIKN]

Given ex Lner ' MK4 ' sets are being aqquired by Transport for Wales .
I'm.very interested in railways but have very little knowledge in the subject , until my health robbed me of my career my knowledge is all ' IT '.
But. Is there no way the Scotrail Express' Brand could run for example a shorterned Edinburgh via Carstairs to Carlisle or Manchester for example using the class 91..

It's already been said they would be no use as ' express non stop services between Glasgow and Edinburgh'.
However the reason I bring them up is Lner , has refurbished them , and they do have sliding doors, that being the case , Re they compatible with the HST Class 43 Loco ?.

 

[hexagon789]

Given ex Lner ' MK4 ' sets are being aqquired by Transport for Wales .
I'm.very interested in railways but have very little knowledge in the subject , until my health robbed me of my career my knowledge is all ' IT '.
But. Is there no way the Scotrail Express' Brand could run for example a shorterned Edinburgh via Carstairs to Carlisle or Manchester for example using the class 91..

It's already been said they would be no use as ' express non stop services between Glasgow and Edinburgh'.
However the reason I bring them up is Lner , has refurbished them , and they do have sliding doors, that being the case , Re they compatible with the HST Class 43 Loco ?.

Not compatible with Class 43 HST Power Cars no. Different Electric Train Supply and the Mk4s are not wired for Class 43 push-pull multiple working either.

 

[sprinterguy]

Given ex Lner ' MK4 ' sets are being aqquired by Transport for Wales .
I'm.very interested in railways but have very little knowledge in the subject , until my health robbed me of my career my knowledge is all ' IT '.
But. Is there no way the Scotrail Express' Brand could run for example a shorterned Edinburgh via Carstairs to Carlisle or Manchester for example using the class 91..

It's already been said they would be no use as ' express non stop services between Glasgow and Edinburgh'.
However the reason I bring them up is Lner , has refurbished them , and they do have sliding doors, that being the case , Re they compatible with the HST Class 43 Loco ?.

As noted above, HST power cars aren't compatible with mark 4 coaches. Modification probably isn't impossible, just costly.

As far as I am aware, Scotrail have expressed no desire to operate what would essentially amount to an "open access" service into England in competition with Transpennine Express. I think Abellio have got their hands full just delivering the agreed franchise specification!

 

[hexagon789]

As noted above, HST power cars aren't compatible with mark 4 coaches. Modification probably isn't impossible, just costly.

As far as I am aware, Scotrail have expressed no desire to operate what would essentially amount to an "open access" service into England in competition with Transpennine Express. I think Abellio have got their hands full just delivering the agreed franchise specification!

I'm sure it's been said it can be done, but it's too much hassle and cost really.

 

[43096]

I understood that the contract is with the ROSCO which owns the GWR sets, the LNER sets are unfortunately with a different owner.

Which precludes obtaining LNER power cars I take it?

The ROSCO that owns the ScotRail sets (Angel Trains) also owns more than half of the powercars that LNER currently use.

The HST fleets have all become mixed in terms of ownership over the years. Power car splits before all the moves began were
GWR 85 Angel, 12 First, 22 Porterbrook
East Coast 23 Angel, 11 Porterbrook
EMT 22 Porterbrook, 6 Angel
XC 5 Porterbrook, 5 Angel
NMT 3 Porterbrook

ScotRail have 54 Angel power cars of which 29 have GEC motors. The LNER vehicles both aren’t enough to replace them and would introduce further non-standard elements (Brush coolers, new electronics). The best way to standardise would be to swap motors as vehicles go for scrap.

 

[hexagon789]

The best way to standardise would be to swap motors as vehicles go for scrap.

Would ScotRail go for that?

 

[43096]

Would ScotRail go for that?

No idea. If I was them I would seriously consider it, assuming Angel would play ball.

 

[hexagon789]

No idea. If I was them I would seriously consider it, assuming Angel would play ball.

Do you know if the motors are significantly more reliable?

 

[43096]

Do you know if the motors are significantly more reliable?

Significantly less maintenance required, assuming ScotRail know that!

 

[hexagon789]

Significantly less maintenance required, assuming ScotRail know that!

So it could be worth their while in the long run. Assuming the sets are in service for say 10 years at least, it would be interesting to see how much ScotRail could save on maintenance purely by going for Brush motors over GEC ones

 

[43096]

So it could be worth their while in the long run. Assuming the sets are in service for say 10 years at least, it would be interesting to see how much ScotRail could save on maintenance purely by going for Brush motors over GEC ones

It’s not just about cost savings, either, but also availability as extra maintenance means more downtime.

 

[Highland37]

While I remember, is there any truth in a statement I read in a railway magazine today that ScotRail will not be using any Classic sets post-December?

Em, how? Wabtec haven't even got close to delivering the refurbished sets they are meant to and Scotrail have few of the very few they have, in service.

 

[hexagon789]

It’s not just about cost savings, either, but also availability as extra maintenance means more downtime.

Because the greater reliability would mean less frequent requirement for substantial repairs.

On that basis, I think ScotRail would do well to consider it bit do they even know about this?

 

[hexagon789]

Em, how? Wabtec haven't even got close to delivering the refurbished sets they are meant to and Scotrail have few of the very few they have, in service.

Which is why I was asking!

I'm well aware the railway press get things wrong just like the mainstream press, but considering it said December it could be they are simply mixing up when the new disability regulations take force?

 

[Paul Kerr]

HA is Haymarket.



Hopefully this century at least

Hi all, I saw a post on scot-rail.co.uk that the next set (HA22) is now formed up in Wabtec's yard in Doncaster, so barring any major hitches we should be seeing it heading north in the next few days. Good to see that Wabtec are accelerating delivery

 

[alangla]

Any idea what actually happened here?
https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...age-hits-another-train-as-they-pass-1-4928977

The collision was caused by a door on one of ScotRail’s 40-year-old intercity trains, which was being driven empty to a depot at Haymarket.

ScotRail was unable to explain why it had happened. However, it is seen as more likely to have been a mechanical fault than human error.

The train involved is thought to have operated a passenger service from Aberdeen which had arrived at Waverley 15 minutes earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd strike me that that would need several mechanical faults to happen, i.e. a failure of the CDL on that door *and* a failure of the main lock *and* of the catch. Seems rather unlikely, and more likely the train was dispatched without it properly closed.

 

[Sprinter153]

It'd strike me that that would need several mechanical faults to happen, i.e. a failure of the CDL on that door *and* a failure of the main lock *and* of the catch. Seems rather unlikely, and more likely the train was dispatched without it properly closed.

It’s perfectly possible for an HST slam door to be insecure even with a fully horizontal handle (so it looks secure on a visual check) - if the main latch is pushed back into the latch assembly whilst the handle is being held down. Most of the time though if the door was flush with the frame the CDL bolt would still hold the door in place.

I’m still a bit incredulous about the egress ‘local door’ thing. At FGW, after using any egress we were required to tape them over and lock out the door in question and the one opposite (as the egress and any CDL isolation applies to both doors) so a full integrity check could be undertaken on a depot.

 

[ER158715]

Could see no refurb in Inverness this week. Been through the station twice.

It’s inside the Carriage Maintenance Depot (CSMD) which isn’t visible from the station. The best you could hope for a view is from the Rose St bridge and the roller door on the end of the building is open- even then you would see pretty much the end of the power car only.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all, I saw a post on scot-rail.co.uk that the next set (HA22) is now formed up in Wabtec's yard in Doncaster, so barring any major hitches we should be seeing it heading north in the next few days. Good to see that Wabtec are accelerating delivery

Well Set 5 was said to be ready while Set 4 was still at Wabtec. Plus deliveries keep getting cancelled.

I do hope it appears soon, but I'm not expecting it "imminently"

 

[hexagon789]

It'd strike me that that would need several mechanical faults to happen, i.e. a failure of the CDL on that door *and* a failure of the main lock *and* of the catch. Seems rather unlikely, and more likely the train was dispatched without it properly closed.

I wonder if the policy of using egress handles to release local doors for checking platforms is to blame. One not reset properly after use?

 

[Esker-pades]

There is already a thread specifically for the door incident: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-385-hits-open-hst-door.182878/