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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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connormill

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Does anyone know if today's 0901 INV-ABD was due to be a HST

I'm working in Inverurie and just seen it pass as a 4 car 158

If it has been subbed it's at least nice to see ScotRail doubling up the 158s and not cramming everyone into 2 cars
 
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fishquinn

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Does anyone know if today's 0901 INV-ABD was due to be a HST

I'm working in Inverurie and just seen it pass as a 4 car 158

If it has been subbed it's at least nice to see ScotRail doubling up the 158s and not cramming everyone into 2 cars
Booked unit
 

43096

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Path now cancelled, there is another path from Doncaster to haymarket running tomorrow
There is, but what is at Doncaster to work it, as I don't believe there were any ScotRail power cars there. There was a path for 43142/144 to go over from Brush but that was cancelled at customer request and the new path isn't due to get there until after the Haymarket move has gone.
 

Bassman

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I agree this would impact new trains as the subsidies go towards leasing costs but electrification isn't affected by subsidy as it's a capital cost and infrastructure investment. From other forums, Glasgow southern suburban (Barrhead, East Kilbride and Kilmarnock), Dunblane to Perth and the Borders lines are in the frame to be tackled next. If electrification goes ahead, the question becomes where does the stock come from? If subsidies are being cut, it would suggest a stock cascade from elsewhere rather than new stock to reduce leasing costs. That would likely rule out the 80x bimodes so I guess you're right; that means the HSTs stick around longer for longer distance services. You could look at converting the power cars to bimode I suppose :)

Yes fair point about different budgets. Nevertheless a worrying sign when we supposedly face a 'climate emergency' and investment in rail and intercity services should feature highly. Abelio have given us the development of national HST intercity services and indicated there are going to be negative repercussions for improvements because of the uncertainty now created.
Seems short term politics have found a scapegoat, but at the cost of working this through and building resilience and reliability and a long term strategic plan. It must be damaging for morale and the continuing oversight of the Inter7city project.
 

Bassman

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Further to ScotGov's end to Abelio's franchise and de-stabilising the Inter7City HST project etc.

The fiasco of the Calmac procurement and today Jim MacColls advice to start again on ferries, as huge losses build up...The ongoing saga of poor quality in SERCO's sleeper service.

Does this not indicate an incompetence of ScotGov to work with private sector to specify clear attainable projects.

The ditching of Abelio, a proven rail operator, shows more and more political expedience.
 

Brissle Girl

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The ditching of Abelio, a proven rail operator, shows more and more political expedience.

Trying to keep politics out of this, but I'm not sure that experience of a couple of the other Abellio run franchises (Greater Anglia, WM) is proving that they are a competent rail operator, certainly when it comes to managing change.
 

Bassman

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Trying to keep politics out of this, but I'm not sure that experience of a couple of the other Abellio run franchises (Greater Anglia, WM) is proving that they are a competent rail operator, certainly when it comes to managing change.
There are certainly aspects of their competence which deserve criticism. Nevertheless as has been expressed on this thread the failure can be shared around to many other factors e.g. Network Rail . They do run Dutch railways and others internationally, so they are engaged with good knowledge skills based and are a competent international rail operator. Easy to blame them yet the progress has been significant. Plenty features to improve and to appreciate the poor level of rail infrastructure they inherited and still exists. To ditch them is political expedience and bad judgement, leaving instability in the current HST project and future direction..
 

Highland37

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Further to ScotGov's end to Abelio's franchise and de-stabilising the Inter7City HST project etc.

The fiasco of the Calmac procurement and today Jim MacColls advice to start again on ferries, as huge losses build up...The ongoing saga of poor quality in SERCO's sleeper service.

Does this not indicate an incompetence of ScotGov to work with private sector to specify clear attainable projects.

The ditching of Abelio, a proven rail operator, shows more and more political expedience.

No. The evidence (proof) is that Wabtec have been abysmal, Abellio have planned very badly with poor contingency, etc.

The problems the railway faces in Scotland are pretty much all internally generated.

The HST project is already very unstable due to the reasons identified on this thread.
 

Northhighland

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The issues have to be seen as multiple failings. First Angel trains own the assets. Surely up to them to lease to Scotrail a product that works. So I would imagine the contract with Wabtec and Brush who are a part of Wabtec, will be with Angel trains.

Angel trains then have a contract with Scotrail for the lease of the HST sets, Scotrail have a contract with Abellio to operate and maintain these assets.

you can see straight away the potential for everyone to blame everyone fir whatever goes wrong.

too many cooks comes to mind

we need a much simpler structure if you want this to work.
 

Bassman

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No. The evidence (proof) is that Wabtec have been abysmal, Abellio have planned very badly with poor contingency, etc.

The problems the railway faces in Scotland are pretty much all internally generated.

The HST project is already very unstable due to the reasons identified on this thread.

Underlying poor long term investment in Scottish railways and particularly the North.
ScotGov, and Transport Scotland supported the Abellio franchise as a 'cheap' way to enhance intercity travel.

Now distancing, for political and money reasons. leaving even more instability and confidence in the HST option.
 

Highland37

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No. The Abellio bid was not the cheapest.

However, I do agree with your point about under investment. It's been the case for at least 100 years.
 

najaB

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No. The Abellio bid was not the cheapest.
If it had be delivered as planned it would have resulted in the best value though. My understanding is that the First and National Express bids were both basically "more of the same".
 

Highland37

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If it had be delivered as planned it would have resulted in the best value though. My understanding is that the First and National Express bids were both basically "more of the same".

Totally agree. In many ways it was a hobsons choice as the lack of investment over a long time will always show.

Our short term, find someone to blame, culture always adds on a few billions also and becomes a barrier to progress. Unfortunately that barrier is unstaffed and no one has a ticket to get through it.
 

marks87

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If it had be delivered as planned it would have resulted in the best value though. My understanding is that the First and National Express bids were both basically "more of the same".

Did they not both propose double 170s on the "inter-city" routes as standard, rather than anything new (or "new")? Radical...

(As it happens, I was looking at the invitation to tender again the other day; it's interesting that TS didn't want "InterCity" or any variation thereof used in branding because they didn't want "to compromise the value of the strong and popular ScotRail Brand"...)
 

Bassman

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No. The Abellio bid was not the cheapest.

However, I do agree with your point about under investment. It's been the case for at least 100 years.

Yes Abellio not the cheapest granted, but still a 'cheap' option compared to needs of the system and quite imaginative - full credit to Abellio for the Inter7City concept.
Are ScotGov being ambitious and farsighted with a long term eco-friendly plan, or bending to media and populist pressure?
It is a political issue to take our infrastructure seriously and work with private sector and in house parties to make collaborative improvements.
I am concerned at the de-stabilising impact on HST project now.
 

najaB

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Yes Abellio not the cheapest granted, but still a 'cheap' option compared to needs of the system...
That's the nature of the business though. As famously summarised by the quote attributed to John Glenn "I felt exactly how you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of 2 million parts — all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract."

Anyone who had bid what the network *really* needs wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell of being chosen.
 
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Looks like 43142/4 have finally escaped loughborough this morning and are currently enroute to haymarket.

There is a Doncaster Works Wabtec to haymarket Depot move today, leaving about 1536. Hopefully if it runs.
 

InOban

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If it does, I'll try to catch it as it passes through Waverley this evening.
 

Speed43125

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One quick question, Would I be right in saying that the guards door that remains a slam door Usually on the inner end of one of the end carriages on a refurb is a feature not being carried over on new refurbs? I seem to be seeing that less and less. It looks better this way too, but can someone confirm that, as I'm not sure I'm not just missing it as I only really see them passing at speed.
 

hexagon789

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One quick question, Would I be right in saying that the guards door that remains a slam door Usually on the inner end of one of the end carriages on a refurb is a feature not being carried over on new refurbs? I seem to be seeing that less and less. It looks better this way too, but can someone confirm that, as I'm not sure I'm not just missing it as I only really see them passing at speed.

The TGFB buffet-end door is still slam on the refurbs. That's also where the guards office is as there is no TGS, I don't think that's being changed.
 

Clansman

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The TGFB buffet-end door is still slam on the refurbs. That's also where the guards office is as there is no TGS, I don't think that's being changed.
Word is that TGS' are being looked at as the fifth coach so that bike and heavy luggage space can be extended.

On another note, buffets are still suffering from electrical faults keeping then out of use. Three refurbs I've been on this week have had locked buffets for this reason.
 

hexagon789

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Word is that TGS' are being looked at as the fifth coach so that bike and heavy luggage space can be extended.

I'd heard that, but hadn't seen it confirmed. It would be the most logical thing to do though. Also saves on two door conversions!
 
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