ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[ScottDarg]

Any idea of the formation please?

Taken from the scot-rail forum:

On its way at the 6th attempt

43142 40615 42030 42579 42010 43143

This brings the total delivered to 22 (21 available if you exclude the Carmont set). Based on the list I've compiled on the Freightmaster forum the sets still to be delivered are;

• HA06
• HA14
• HA19
• HA20

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though.

 

[Mordac]

Also the extra coaches to make 17 5 cars.

 

[47827]

If the aim is to have all long-distance services worked by HST’s, wouldn’t a 170 cause issues with some crew no longer being competent? Especially Perth-Inverness where there are no DMU commuter services like on the Aberdeen route. It would also counter-productive to the goal of removing suburban trains from long-distance services.

Perth and Aberdeen crews will still work other units away from the IC services, as will Inverness. Although with the latter depot it would be just 158s North of Inverness. On top of that I'm not aware yet if there is an odd token dmu diagram that may feature something running along the Highland Mainline or via Elgin which would also serve the purpose of keeping crew cleared to work 170s. 158s certainly look like they would still be OK as replacements on the day regardless of whether any are booked to work the mostly hst operated routes. As all 3 depots that work north of the Central belt would still have some turns presumably.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think any of us can have the slightest idea at the moment - it'll be down to a discussion between Scotrail, the leasing company and the insurers.

One thing which is worth noting though is that if they don't do it now, they may not have the option in the future as Mk3s may not be available, and the work would be more expensive for a one-off job than by adding another set to the current production line.

I accept that, I was purely speculating and I agree - if they want a 26th set they'll need to move sharpish.

If the aim is to have all long-distance services worked by HST’s, wouldn’t a 170 cause issues with some crew no longer being competent? Especially Perth-Inverness where there are no DMU commuter services like on the Aberdeen route. It would also counter-productive to the goal of removing suburban trains from long-distance services.

I was thinking of revoking a HST diagram on Inverness-Aberdeen which were always planned to be a mix of HST/DMU and you might not need to do that except where there isn't sufficient maintenance cover. I can't remember how many sets were supposed to be diagrammed out of the 26, even with one set out of action there may still be enough maintenance cover to cope.

 

[43096]

I was thinking of revoking a HST diagram on Inverness-Aberdeen which were always planned to be a mix of HST/DMU and you might not need to do that except where there isn't sufficient maintenance cover. I can't remember how many sets were supposed to be diagrammed out of the 26, even with one set out of action there may still be enough maintenance cover to cope.

From memory, I think it was 23 diagrams for them. 23 from 25 looks incredibly tight, especially if the power cars aren't replaced.

 

[St. Paddy]

Taken from the scot-rail forum:



This brings the total delivered to 22 (21 available if you exclude the Carmont set). Based on the list I've compiled on the Freightmaster forum the sets still to be delivered are;

• HA06
• HA14
• HA19
• HA20

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though.

Thanks

 

[InOban]

Realtime Trains - 028X 1106 Haymarket Depot to Doncaster West Yard

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I assume that this will be the next pair of power cars going south?

 

[hexagon789]

From memory, I think it was 23 diagrams for them. 23 from 25 looks incredibly tight, especially if the power cars aren't replaced.

That was the figure I had as well, but I wasn't 100% sure. On the subject of power cars, aren't there more pairs than sets anyway, though might still be tight even then.

I can see the argument both ways with this one really, my gut feeling is they won't replace the set from Carmont but I would prefer to be proven wrong on that.

 

[DB]

That was the figure I had as well, but I wasn't 100% sure. On the subject of power cars, aren't there more pairs than sets anyway, though might still be tight even then.

I can see the argument both ways with this one really, my gut feeling is they won't replace the set from Carmont but I would prefer to be proven wrong on that.

It's normal to have more power cars than sets as they need more maintenance than trailers and are more likely to be out of service due to failures.

Not really sure what 'gut feeling' has to contribute to the matter - it'll be a financial versus requirements judgement by the parties involved.

 

[43096]

That was the figure I had as well, but I wasn't 100% sure. On the subject of power cars, aren't there more pairs than sets anyway, though might still be tight even then.

There’s 54 power cars (pre Carmont) for 46 planned diagrams. At over 85% availability, I’d say that was ambitious based on historic power car diagramming (normally 80-82%).

 

[hexagon789]

It's normal to have more power cars than sets as they need more maintenance than trailers and are more likely to be out of service due to failures.

Not really sure what 'gut feeling' has to contribute to the matter - it'll be a financial versus requirements judgement by the parties involved.

The odds seem more inclined towards not replacing the Carmont set given the time it takes to churn out a set and reduced passenger numbers.

There’s 54 power cars (pre Carmont) for 46 planned diagrams. At over 85% availability, I’d say that was ambitious based on historic power car diagramming (normally 80-82%).

So already arguably too ambitious.

I don't know then, present circs. along with what I'd heard on the matter suggested the set would not be replaced.

They still have the option to rework the diagrams and replace certain workings with a 170 given they have more left than they were originally going to have.

 

[43096]

So already arguably too ambitious.

I don't know then, present circs. along with what I'd heard on the matter suggested the set would not be replaced.

They still have the option to rework the diagrams and replace certain workings with a 170 given they have more left than they were originally going to have.

There’s an argument to not replace the set, drop the diagrams to 22, but replace the power car(s) so there’s still 54 power cars but 44 required daily. That would sort out the challenging availability target and reduce costs with one less set of trailers.

 

[hexagon789]

There’s an argument to not replace the set, drop the diagrams to 22, but replace the power car(s) so there’s still 54 power cars but 44 required daily. That would sort out the challenging availability target and reduce costs with one less set of trailers.

I can see that be the adopted course of action, given the sets have still to be made up to 5-car and some have still to be delivered as well

 

[najaB]

There’s 54 power cars (pre Carmont) for 46 planned diagrams. At over 85% availability, I’d say that was ambitious based on historic power car diagramming (normally 80-82%).

But then, the diagrams are a lot less demanding than historical - shorter distances and most of the running would be at c. 75mph vs the large amount of >100mph running on the ECML/GWML.

 

[43096]

But then, the diagrams are a lot less demanding than historical - shorter distances and most of the running would be at c. 75mph vs the large amount of >100mph running on the ECML/GWML.

On the flip side, they are now 40+ years old with the inevitable impact that has on maintenance to keep them going.

 

[Brissle Girl]

On the flip side, they are now 40+ years old with the inevitable impact that has on maintenance to keep them going.

The most important bit of them is around 15 years old, and of a newer design, not just a like for like replacement. So maybe mid life.

 

[InOban]

Realtime Trains - 028X 1106 Haymarket Depot to Doncaster West Yard

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I assume that this will be the next pair of power cars going south?

Realtime Trains - 065D 1106 Haymarket Depot to Doncaster West Yard

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Now rescheduled to tomorrow, Friday

And this time it's running. I'm sure someone will report the power car numbers for those who follow such things.

 

[Mack91]

43124 / 143

 

[Speed43125]

But then, the diagrams are a lot less demanding than historical - shorter distances and most of the running would be at c. 75mph vs the large amount of >100mph running on the ECML/GWML.

Is the slower average speed, more stopping and starting service now operated actually less demanding? Would it not be less demanding to be sitting along at a relatively constant speed for longer?

 

[najaB]

Is the slower average speed, more stopping and starting service now operated actually less demanding? Would it not be less demanding to be sitting along at a relatively constant speed for longer?

IIRC, the energy required (and therefore stress on the engines) increases with the square of the velocity.

 

[Speed43125]

IIRC, the energy required (and therefore stress on the engines) increases with the square of the velocity.

Ek = 1/2 mv^2, yes. However, that assumes that instead of doing hundreds of miles cruising at 125, it's instead doing the same at 75, which simply isn't the case. The trains are stopping and then accelerating back up to line speed much more frequently, which would strike me as putting more stress on the trains. ISTR this may show in the traction motors failing for Scotrail more, even if the MTU units fare alright with this sort of work.

For example if we look at the 1H51 today, it's travelling 180 miles from Queen Street to Inverness, but it's stopping on average once every 18 miles even if we assume the single track sections don't cause it to need to stop anywhere outside of scheduled station stops.

I think it's fair to say that is much more frequent than anything they'd have been diagrammed to do on the ECML/GWML.

 

[43096]

Ek = 1/2 mv^2, yes. However, that assumes that instead of doing hundreds of miles cruising at 125, it's instead doing the same at 75, which simply isn't the case. The trains are stopping and then accelerating back up to line speed much more frequently, which would strike me as putting more stress on the trains. ISTR this may show in the traction motors failing for Scotrail more, even if the MTU units fare alright with this sort of work.

For example if we look at the 1H51 today, it's travelling 180 miles from Queen Street to Inverness, but it's stopping on average once every 18 miles even if we assume the single track sections don't cause it to need to stop anywhere outside of scheduled station stops.

I think it's fair to say that is much more frequent than anything they'd have been diagrammed to do on the ECML/GWML.

Paddington-Bristol "Great Western metro" services are close: 6 stops in 118 miles.

 

[hexagon789]

Ek = 1/2 mv^2, yes. However, that assumes that instead of doing hundreds of miles cruising at 125, it's instead doing the same at 75, which simply isn't the case. The trains are stopping and then accelerating back up to line speed much more frequently, which would strike me as putting more stress on the trains. ISTR this may show in the traction motors failing for Scotrail more, even if the MTU units fare alright with this sort of work.

For example if we look at the 1H51 today, it's travelling 180 miles from Queen Street to Inverness, but it's stopping on average once every 18 miles even if we assume the single track sections don't cause it to need to stop anywhere outside of scheduled station stops.

I think it's fair to say that is much more frequent than anything they'd have been diagrammed to do on the ECML/GWML.

There's a fair amount of 90-100mph running on Glasgow-Aberdeen. Also drivers usually run in Notch 4 with the short sets a driver said some time ago as the schedules are easy to maintain so there's no need for full power unless running late.

 

[jamieintercity]

Set 23 has just left Doncaster at 1335 according to RTT. Wouldn't be too surprised if the remaining 3 sets were delivered before Xmas

 

[InOban]

You beat me to It!

 

[midland1]

Just seen it pass York on Railcam

 

[The_Train]

Set 23 has just left Doncaster at 1335 according to RTT. Wouldn't be too surprised if the remaining 3 sets were delivered before Xmas

You beat me to It!

Just seen it pass York on Railcam

Do we know which power cars were used please?

 

[43096]

Do we know which power cars were used please?

Set HA14 formed 43150 40614 (ex-41010) 42012 42245 42013 43163.

 

[The_Train]

Set HA14 formed 43150 40614 (ex-41010) 42012 42245 42013 43163.

Thank you

Do we also know why 43124 and 43143 have ventured to Wabtec at Donny?

 

[OmniCity999]

Thank you

Do we also know why 43124 and 43143 have ventured to Wabtec at Donny?

To collect the next set, maybe?