Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They were instructed to sign the new contract "under duress"

Did any actually write such wording on their contracts prior to signing them.

 

[XDM]

In the thread length so far of over 10,800 postings, may I ask what it has actually achieved so far?

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

 

[ar10642]

I am sure that you are correct, but as the government hold the aces DOO is happening - continued strikes will just lose money for the staff and continue to cheese off the customers whose lives are disrupted.

That's been the case for months, especially for the RMT strikes. It should have been clear after the first couple of strikes were basically ignored.

"They've ignored all the other ones, but this strike's going to show 'em!"

It's now even more ridiculous, because the only place it's going to make a real difference are lines where guards are being retained anyway - most of everything else is already DOO.

 

[FordFocus]

Did any actually write such wording on their contracts prior to signing them.

The RMT sought legal advice and was advised to tell their members to sign the new contracts but were still in a dispute about terms and conditions. Not sure on the actual wording or legalities of it.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

Alternatively you could employ enough Guards then you wouldn't be waiting for anyone. Unless you happened to be short of drivers, or the driver is caught up in disruption and is having his break or not available, in which case you are still waiting or getting cancelled.
My experience is that where you have enough staff employed in the first place, more often than not you are waiting for a driver rather than a Guard.

 

[FordFocus]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

That's one angle, here's another.........

DOO, slowly degrading the safety standards of the UK railways since 1982.

 

[infobleep]

They were instructed to sign the new contract "under duress"

How does the period of duress last before they might be considered to have accepted the terms fully or is their no period?

 

[infobleep]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

There were trains cancelled on Tuesday, Wednesday and today due to staff shortages. So much for not cancelling trains.

 

[KTHV]

There were trains cancelled on Tuesday, Wednesday and today due to staff shortages. So much for not cancelling trains.

As XDM says - there are no problems any more.

The 100% services running were "Alternative Trains" - which are the best trains, the greatest trains you've seen [/TrumpLogic]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[redbutton]

Would they not require route knowledge, traction knowledge, and PTS for that? They may as well be a guard.

One of the offers from GTR last year was that the OBS would have all the same training as a guard except door operation, so clearly they're open to it.

In fact, I suspect that will form the basis of whatever agreement is being negotiated this week.

 

[maniacmartin]

XDM you cannot be serious. Even trains that arrive on time are now dispatched late and slowly as a matter of course now whilst dispatchers are walking along the platform or between platforms. This has gotten worse since traditional guards were removed and is not an insignificant cause of delays - a minute here and there snowballs along a route.

 

[BestWestern]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

Love it!! "Alternative facts". Brilliant stuff.

 

[Minilad]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

You are Sean Spicer and I claim my five pounds. SAD!

 

[Monty]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

What an earth are you smoking? Where I live Southern continues to have issues with severe delays and cancellations after the removal of the guard. You really are living on another planet.

 

[TEW]

XDM you cannot be serious. Even trains that arrive on time are now dispatched late and slowly as a matter of course now whilst dispatchers are walking along the platform or between platforms. This has gotten worse since traditional guards were removed and is not an insignificant cause of delays - a minute here and there snowballs along a route.

That was noticeable across the Southern network on trains I used today. It appears there has been no prior thought as to how trains were meant to be dispatched under the new arrangements. Some stations did not appear to have enough staff to dispatch all there DOO trains on time. At Horsham there appeared to be agency dispatch staff undergoing training, and I doubt that's the only location. All adding cost of course.

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, its as if they never factored in the fact that a dispatcher cannot be on multiple platforms at once! The dispatchers also appear to not know the length of the trains or where they are going to stop. They're sometimes are caught out when the train arrives and have to walk along the platform to where they need to be after the train arrives.

I wonder how the cost of extra dispatchers and extra delay minutes from the new dispatch procedure compares with the supposed savings of demoting guards to OBS

 

[HH]

I wonder how the cost of extra dispatchers and extra delay minutes from the new dispatch procedure compares with the supposed savings of demoting guards to OBS

It's all about saving face at this point, I expect.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Alternatively you could employ enough Guards then you wouldn't be waiting for anyone. Unless you happened to be short of drivers, or the driver is caught up in disruption and is having his break or not available, in which case you are still waiting or getting cancelled.
My experience is that where you have enough staff employed in the first place, more often than not you are waiting for a driver rather than a Guard.

Rare that any of my trains are cancelled due to no guard.In fact I can't even remember when that last happened in the last ten years.
Well done SWT.

XDM you cannot be serious. Even trains that arrive on time are now dispatched late and slowly as a matter of course now whilst dispatchers are walking along the platform or between platforms. This has gotten worse since traditional guards were removed and is not an insignificant cause of delays - a minute here and there snowballs along a route.

I can see this happening...If there is a problem on the train or passcom that's going to delay even more.Unit fault.Can stuck in the door which we had the other week delayed us by about two minutes (with guard) would take longer to fix on DOO.Even if it looks like it will delay one train,at key locations it has a knock on effect.But never mind.

The thing that gets me is it seems people think all we do is sit up front all day pull a lever and press a button and that's it,because that's all they see.Not that there is more to the job when various situations occur.I had to put the bar down once at Twickenham in the slam door days to possibly stop a train fire after having the train cause a short circuit.Lost the line beforehand and the guard buzzed me up to tell me there was a load of smoke coming out the back of the train.Glad he was there to warn me.It definitely stopped the problem escalating.

 

[the sniper]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

 

[TheEdge]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

Meanwhile at GTR Towers...

(This is fine dog)

 

[Deepgreen]

This is MY honest opinion. I'm a member of the RMT (although not traincrew), and a firm believer in unions and what they stand for.

Not a massive amount have been achieved. A lot of damage has been done to unions, GTR (righty or wrongly), the rail industry as a whole, but most importantly, the punters. The government/GTR have got what they wanted, whether or not the guards are in a better position I cannot say. I know they've been "promised" some stuff, regarding money and future which is fantastic.

But the RMT keeping the strikes up is futile, surely they must realise this. The government will not halt now. They are unfortunately creating more reason for the tories to try and break unions. I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve, now that they have essentially agreed to continue DOO.

I thought from the start that more focus should be made on what happens after DOO, rather than completely fighting it, as it was obvious that was going to happen it.

Note: I'm completely pro guard, and I truly believe we should have one on each train. But the government don't, therefore they will win.

I think this more or less sums up my feelings too - well put.

I suppose at the very least this very long thread has aired views and put forward ideas, none of which have done any harm. It is, after all, a discussion forum, and the thread was instigated with the specific remit of allowing more 'emotional' posts, if you will. That is what it has provided.

 

[Deepgreen]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

This theory is fine, BUT - even if more trains are now avoiding cancellation, the platform staff dispatch regime is in such disarray that delays are accruing insidiously all the time. I would not be surprised if the total minutes' delays being experienced on so many trains now exceeds those that would have accrued through occasional cancellations. There is of course also the issue of the apparent lack of an effective management regime designed to curb staff not being in position (or available through lack of recruitment).

 

[Fincra5]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

Hahahaha! Cloud Cuckoo land. There's still many trains cancelled due to driver shortages or "Sickness" and train faults!

Might not have been such an issue if diagramming was actually looked at rather than letting a PC just spill it out "cos it fits". Don't send staff from one end of the network to the other on several trains! Don't have 4min turn arounds as it leads to no time to make up for late running.

Employ enough staff to run the service and bam service issues sorted.

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[Chrisgr31]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

The passengers on the 18.17 from London Bridge to East Grinstead last night are likely to disagree!

 

[Deepgreen]

The dispatch staff issue does need serious consideration.

I am not sure what the level of pay is but this should not be a minimum wage position.

Staff should have a full working knowledge of the timetable and should be fully trained to a high standard.

Does anyone know if poor performance and staff management in this respect (endemic on Southern routes) is recorded?

Agreed - it must be a horrible job except in good weather with a smooth-running service.

I suspect the issue is with the lack of management, training and supervision (and policy) rather than most of the staff themselves. It is especially frustrating to have such lax dispatch on so many occasions but to be told when complaining of a missed connection opportunity (at, to take a random example, Redhill!) that "every second counts"!

 

[Carlisle]

Agreed - it must be a horrible job except in good weather with a smooth-running service.
!

I can't speak for Southern but I know a few dispatch staff employed by other TOCs who have done that same job for many years and are happy to admit its reasonably well paid, I agree it's not great being out in all the elements though

 

[FordFocus]

Does anyone know if poor performance and staff management in this respect (endemic on Southern routes) is recorded?

Knowing GTR they'll stick it into their 'force majeure' claim to the DfT that it's union action both unofficial and official. Then Minister Paul Maynard will stand up in Parliament and will agree it's the fault of unions and not of the DfT or the incompetence of GTR management.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I can't speak for Southern but I know a few dispatch staff employed by other TOCs who have done that same job for many years and are happy to admit its reasonably well paid, I agree it's not great being out in all the elements though

I've actually asked them why they don't go for Driver or Guards job but many are just not interested.

 

[Barn]

So what's happening day to day now? Are Aslef and Southern reps still meeting daily to thrash something out?