Stock transfers you would like to see

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SprinterMan

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Hello,
The stock allocations to various TOCs seem to make little sense in some cases, but these are some transfers I would like to see. Feel free to comment and add fantasy stock transfers of your own. :)

Northern/FGW
The centre car of 158798 can go to Northern, in exchange for a 153. FGW can then reform their remaining 3 2-car 158s into 2 3-car hybrids, giving much more flexibility in their fleet and stopping 150s ending up in Brighton and Portsmouth. This will give them more slack in their 150 fleet and allow the non-standard 150/2s 150202 and 150216 (150/2s with 150/1 interiors and livery) to be reformed to make 4 more 3-car 150/1s, thereby eliminating the 150/1+153 combinations that are a nightmare for conductors. Northern can use their new 3-car 158 to replace the 158+153 that runs on the S&C all day, thereby releasing the 153 and allowing the 158 to run at 90 not 75 and whit air-con throughout.

Greater Anglia/Northern
The 9 stored 317/7s can go to Northern, replacing the 322s (I doubt WYPTE would allow the release of the 321/9s). A 317 can run with a 321 no problem in service so compatibility isn't a problem (happens all the time inside Ilford depot) and the North finally gets some "nice" trains as they so crave :P (and Northern get an increase of 4 units, to either cover for the missing 153 of the previous transfer, to send another 153 to FGW to cover for the previous transfer or just to double up units to give 8-car services. Greater Anglia can then take the 322s to finally make up the peak hour 8-car 321s left over from the 317/7 withdrawal up to 12-cars and give them more slack in their 321 fleet. Take the Northern vinyls off the 322s and stick on a white stripe they are in the same livery as the 360s anyway ;)

Virgin Trains/CrossCountry
Transfer the 2-car 221144 from VT to XC and reduce 221139 and 221140 to 4 cars, meaning 221144 can be a 4 car unit again. XC's fleet is increased by 1 unit and 2 cars, and VT don't really lose anything.

Adam :D
 
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zn1

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its about time some more 395's were bought from hitachi...they could make a big dent in the paths on WCML
 

Anvil1984

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Not sure about the 317 / 322 swap. The East side of Northern doesnt really need additional EMUs. Possibly a small transfer with the 317s going to the West Side of Northern with a couple of 323s going to London Midland so both get an increase
 

ainsworth74

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its about time some more 395's were bought from hitachi...they could make a big dent in the paths on WCML
How so? They don't tilt so would be limited to 110mph which means if anything they'd eat up even more paths!
 

SprinterMan

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its about time some more 395's were bought from hitachi...they could make a big dent in the paths on WCML
They can't tilt so they would be restricted to 110mph, and they aren't suited to long distance travel

Adam :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How so? They don't tilt so would be limited to 110mph which means if anything they'd eat up even more paths!
I was beaten to it :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure about the 317 / 322 swap. The East side of Northern doesnt really need additional EMUs. Possibly a small transfer with the 317s going to the West Side of Northern with a couple of 323s going to London Midland so both get an increase
That would be good, it would be nice to have 317/7s on Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly runs, as 317/7s were built for Airport services in the first place.

Adam :D
 

jopsuk

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because much above that speed, whilst the trains could take the curves (tilting barely shifts the centre of gravity to an appreciable degree) the severity of the curve would make life uncomfortable for passengers and may require the driver to be strapped in.
 

sprinterguy

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Virgin Trains/CrossCountry
Transfer the 2-car 221144 from VT to XC and reduce 221139 and 221140 to 4 cars, meaning 221144 can be a 4 car unit again. XC's fleet is increased by 1 unit and 2 cars, and VT don't really lose anything.
It would have been far simpler when the Crosscountry and West Coast franchises were split up from formerly Virgin operation, and probably still would be now, for VWC to simply have been allocated 221101 - 120, all five carriage units, and the new Arriva XC franchise to have been allocated 221121 - 144.

Virgin would have had its' twenty 5-car units that it does now, and Crosscountry would benefit from having one additional 4-car unit that could be used to double up some more services through the XC core between York and Bristol. It certainly beats the needlessly complex arrangement of having carriages split between units, meaning that one Virgin 221 now has two shops and there are two driving cars performing very little function at all other than providing some company for the Central Rivers 08.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern/FGW
The centre car of 158798 can go to Northern, in exchange for a 153. FGW can then reform their remaining 3 2-car 158s into 2 3-car hybrids, giving much more flexibility in their fleet and stopping 150s ending up in Brighton and Portsmouth. This will give them more slack in their 150 fleet and allow the non-standard 150/2s 150202 and 150216 (150/2s with 150/1 interiors and livery) to be reformed to make 4 more 3-car 150/1s, thereby eliminating the 150/1+153 combinations that are a nightmare for conductors. Northern can use their new 3-car 158 to replace the 158+153 that runs on the S&C all day, thereby releasing the 153 and allowing the 158 to run at 90 not 75 and whit air-con throughout.
This sounds like a good strategy to follow. For starters, it seems strange that FGW operate only one "proper" 3-car 158 with a purpose-built centre car. However, would reducing FGWs' 158 fleet by one unit, from one 3-car and two 2-car units at present to two 3-car "hybrid" units (Not considering the existing 3-car hybrids here, as they would obviously remain unchanged) actually result in a reduced number of long distance 150 runs?

Also, I would suggest that Northern operating a 3-car 158 rather than a 153+158 diagram on the S&C would yeild very little benefit with regards to being able to operate at 90mph rather than 75mph, as AFAIK there are very few, if any, sections of the Leeds to Carlisle route where trains are timed for more than 75mph operation, particularly on the S&C itself: Certainly, I do not believe that schedules have changed very much, if at all, on the route since the 158s superceded the 156s. Overall though then yes, I think that this is a good idea, I just wanted to point out that one flaw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure about the 317 / 322 swap. The East side of Northern doesnt really need additional EMUs. Possibly a small transfer with the 317s going to the West Side of Northern with a couple of 323s going to London Midland so both get an increase
Agreed, the arrival of the five 322s has covered the shortfall in electric units to operate services radiating from Leeds, procuring nine 317s to replace just these five units would be overkill. If the 317s also replaced the 321/9s as well as the 322s, then it might be a more palatable concept as nine 317s would then be replacing eight 321/322s.

I haven't experienced many Airedale, Wharfedale and Leeds - Doncaster services where eight carriage trains would be needed: Plus, a previous RUS document that covered the Airedale & Wharfedale services stated that the stations on these routes could only accept 6 x 23 metre formations without extensive and prohibitively expensive platform lengthening works being required at some locations: If we were to take the scenario proferred by the OP, then perhaps the nine 317/7s could be utilised on the West side of Northern as you say, most fittingly on Manchester Airport services as SprinterMan adds, releasing a similar number of 323s that could form up to four 6-car trains on Airedale & Wharfedale services to maximise capacity on the busiest services. Overall though, I feel that this creates too many micro-fleets for Northern on both sides of the Pennines that would cause complications in rostering and maintenance. Out of Leeds, the current arrangement of sixteen 333s and essentially eight 321s seems to be the most convenient arrangement in the circumstances.
 

tbtc

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I have plans. But before I get carried away with multi milion pound orders/ electrification etc, a couple of initial moves:

1. Out of the billions in the rail budget, find a couple of quid to pay for a school bus for kids on the Marston Vale line, so that operation of Bedford - Bletchley can go over to 153s and LM can be rid of their 150s

2. Drop the token XC stop at that east anglian station that restricts Stansted - Birmingham service to two coaches

3. Northern give GA their seven 155s plus four 153s in exchange for GA's nine 156s (to reduce the number of unit types at Northern)

4. Eight 143s from FGW to go to ATW (to put them all with one TOC). Fifteen 142s to go from ATW to Northern (to put them all with one TOC). Northern to give their eighteen 153s to FGW in exchange (so no 153s at Northern) - or, if the GA/155 swap happened, give all the remaining 153s at Northern plus a couple of 150s to make up the difference. Either way you reduce the number of unit types with TOCs.
 

anthony263

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I would have liked ATW to get a fleet of class 172's particulary for routes in West & North wales replacing the class 150/153's which could then go to other operaters such as Northern, East Midlands trains etc.

The faster acceleration and shorter dwell times with the class 172's would make then ideal for the Pembroke Dock branch since the class 153's do struggle to keep to time on that route.
 

VTPreston_Tez

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I would like to see First Great Western with more modern stock on their Weymouth-Gloucester/Bristol/Worcester/Cardiff runs. With one 158 running Weymouth to Cardiff, that's one problem already solved. However FGW could do with more 158s - and when FTPE get the 350s will they be able to ensure FGW get a few 170s/185s off them? I don't know how this works and I'm not sure about speed limits but what I do know is that it would be a big improvement over the basic back-ache sprinters (and even Pacers in worst case scenario)
 

TheBigD

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2. Drop the token XC stop at that east anglian station that restricts Stansted - Birmingham service to two coaches
All the XC 170's now have SDO (fitted during 2010/11 I think) so that doesn't apply now.

The Whittlesea stops are mostly at times when there are no GA service. And the Manea stop in the morning to/evening from Cambridge is well used with students/commuters for Cambridge. The morning from/evening to Cambridge stop at Manea is a total waste of space though.
 

Failed Unit

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I have plans. But before I get carried away with multi milion pound orders/ electrification etc, a couple of initial moves:

1. Out of the billions in the rail budget, find a couple of quid to pay for a school bus for kids on the Marston Vale line, so that operation of Bedford - Bletchley can go over to 153s and LM can be rid of their 150s

2. Drop the token XC stop at that east anglian station that restricts Stansted - Birmingham service to two coaches

3. Northern give GA their seven 155s plus four 153s in exchange for GA's nine 156s (to reduce the number of unit types at Northern)

4. Eight 143s from FGW to go to ATW (to put them all with one TOC). Fifteen 142s to go from ATW to Northern (to put them all with one TOC). Northern to give their eighteen 153s to FGW in exchange (so no 153s at Northern) - or, if the GA/155 swap happened, give all the remaining 153s at Northern plus a couple of 150s to make up the difference. Either way you reduce the number of unit types with TOCs.
I would add give the EMT 156s to Scotrail in place of some 158s as CT had planned. Made sense to everyone but transport Scotland. Saying that an EMT 156 is much nicer than an unrefurbished 158
 

paul1609

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How so? They don't tilt so would be limited to 110mph which means if anything they'd eat up even more paths!
It would be interesting to see a 12 car class 395 set in trials on an EBW diagram. The power to weight and accelerations are such that I've got a gut feeling that the Pendolino might well have difficulty keeping the Javelins tailights in sight despite the 15 mph loss of top speed.



 

jopsuk

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Massive negative dint, they're slower than Class 390s...
In acceleration you presumably mean? Obviously design top speed is the same, and allowed operational top speed is down the line and signalling. Suprises me a little though. Though with all that power, regeared for 110mph (non-tilting WCML top speed), I wonder how the drag race would look?
 

jopsuk

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2. Drop the token XC stop at that east anglian station that restricts Stansted - Birmingham service to two coaches
I can't figure the rhyme or reason behind which of those services are 2 and which 3- it seems the same time on different weekdays can vary.

They really could do with the entire XC 170 fleet being 3 car, possibly 4 car, units.
 

sprinterguy

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I can't figure the rhyme or reason behind which of those services are 2 and which 3- it seems the same time on different weekdays can vary.

They really could do with the entire XC 170 fleet being 3 car, possibly 4 car, units.
Crosscountry having enough trains to allow the 2-car diagrams on the Birmingham - Leicester - Stansted route to become 3-car, and the currently 3-car diagrams to be formed of a pair of 2-car units to make a four carriage train would definitely be a great help: If London Midland still have the option to take on 26 additional class 172 vehicles, replacing the 170 diagrams on the Snow Hill lines and extending the use of 172s to the Chase line by introducing 7 x 2-car 172/2s and 4 x 3-car 172/3s, could allow Crosscountry to take on LMs' six 170/6s and aid in this aim.
 

ainsworth74

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They really could do with the entire XC 170 fleet being 3 car, possibly 4 car, units.
I would have thought just about all the operators of 2-car 170s would benefit from them being lengthened to 3-car units to be honest. It's shame that the 172s are different to the extent that you can't just drop a 172 MS into the middle of existing 170 formations.
 

Nym

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In acceleration you presumably mean? Obviously design top speed is the same, and allowed operational top speed is down the line and signalling. Suprises me a little though. Though with all that power, regeared for 110mph (non-tilting WCML top speed), I wonder how the drag race would look?
If the pendo was light I'd be putting money on Alstom's motors rather than Hitachi, details that not many people would understand so I'm not going into it, but there isn't (and I have looked) any set of numbers for a fair comparison of traction effort or power. (Figures quoted are different, 390 has motor shaft power and 395 has traction system available power, very different measurements)

But the way that the 390 is set up in my opinion is better for getting off the line than the 395's systems.

Don't get me started on pointless and expensive enhancements used by Hitachi on the 395 units in comparison to the class 390 units.
 

Schnellzug

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One thing I've recommended before (which would depend on new stock for CrossCountry, of course :p) would be to transfer the XC 221s to SWT for Waterloo_Exeter fasts, calling only at (say) Yeovil jct, Axminster, Honiton & Ex C west of Salisbury, thereby enabling the 159s to be used on all-stations intermediate services. I don't know if the line capacity could cope with it at the moment, but I'm sure they could think of something.
 
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