Striking during olympics

[KA4C]

Because I think the term, and its widespread understanding, signifies institutional bullying that is more widespread than some seem to admit.

If bullying of this kind takes place, then it is dealt with, it is, however, rare

 

[David]

The basic point here is the employees have a frustration,they have legaly and democraticaly decided to resist changes to their pension scheme

A pension fund that is fully funded currently. As has been stated, a final salary scheme can not be overfunded by law although a small surplus is allowed. It's a simple matter for drivers to accept the reduced contributions, and then invest them in another pension scheme, or an ISA, etc. If they invest in another pension using the £500 a year reduction in payments proposed, then the staff involved still invest the same amount each month, but for greater benefit.

The right wing that ran this country in the 80's encouraged selfishness and individualism, all rail workers are doing is trying to secure the best deal possible, and this may sound antagonistic to fare payers and enthusiasts but why should your average rail worker care if you are put out for a few days through industrial action as I would hazard a guess most enthusiasts and passengers don't care about the rail staff who operate the service they rely on.

Fair enough trying to get the best they can for themselves, as I'm sure most people will try to get what they can. However, it's this ability to get what they want, baically when they want is what upsets people the most. For example. Yearly wage increases. I have no objection to people trying to get a wage/salary worthy of the job they do, it's how rail staff think they are immune from economic conditions, holding out for a minimum wage increase equal to inflation when every other employment sector is looking at pay freezes or cuts. How many times now have we seen reports that staff have been balloted for strike action as the pay deal offer "wasn't good enough"? (Sometimes 5% wasn't enough.)

Having looked through the press releases for ALSEF and RMT, while the former still want the best they can for their members, they are not as militant as the RMT. The RMT however ....

• A demand for an investigation into the heat related speep restrictions on the GA.
• Demand that the FGW franchise be re-nationalised.
• A campaign against Nick Clegg over rail cuts, despite nothing being announced!
• Preparing to ballot over unconfirmed plans to reduce catering in the next WCML franchise.

Those are just 4 examples taken from the RMT website (all on the first oage of the news archive) to show how aggressive they are, and in every single press release issued, Bob Crow has to say something derogatory about the railways. Is it any wonder the general public is disillusioned when they hear about more proposed industrial action on the railway? :roll:

 

[GB]

The heat speed restrictions have been implemented a number of times for at least the last 3 or 4 years. This is nothing new on the GEML so I don't see what the RMT are harping on about in this respect.

 

[Ferret]

The heat speed restrictions have been implemented a number of times for at least the last 3 or 4 years. This is nothing new on the GEML so I don't see what the RMT are harping on about in this respect.

Buckling rails and OLE I assume is the issue. Well, one or two thoughts spring to mind here, involving the words 'on the cheap'.

 

[Legzr1]

Enough of all this money and politics causing arguments!

A fair solution would be to pay the operators of vehicles an hourly rate dependent on the difficulty of their job. Since "difficulty" is hard to define objectively then we could use the proxy of "axes of freedom" requiring control.

Train drivers - 1 axis of freedom - faster/slower
Bus drivers - 2 axes of freedom - faster/slower, left/right
Airline pilots - 3 axes of freedom - faster/slower, left/right, up/down

Therefore bus drivers would be paid twice the amount of train drivers and airline pilots would be paid three times as much. This method is scientifically proven and you all know that it makes sense.

That could work.


All those in static positions driving desks could be paid £1/hour.

 

[wigwamman]

A pension fund that is fully funded currently. As has been stated, a final salary scheme can not be overfunded by law although a small surplus is allowed. It's a simple matter for drivers to accept the reduced contributions, and then invest them in another pension scheme, or an ISA, etc. If they invest in another pension using the £500 a year reduction in payments proposed, then the staff involved still invest the same amount each month, but for greater benefit.



Fair enough trying to get the best they can for themselves, as I'm sure most people will try to get what they can. However, it's this ability to get what they want, baically when they want is what upsets people the most. For example. Yearly wage increases. I have no objection to people trying to get a wage/salary worthy of the job they do, it's how rail staff think they are immune from economic conditions, holding out for a minimum wage increase equal to inflation when every other employment sector is looking at pay freezes or cuts. How many times now have we seen reports that staff have been balloted for strike action as the pay deal offer "wasn't good enough"? (Sometimes 5% wasn't enough.)

Having looked through the press releases for ALSEF and RMT, while the former still want the best they can for their members, they are not as militant as the RMT. The RMT however ....

• A demand for an investigation into the heat related speep restrictions on the GA.
• Demand that the FGW franchise be re-nationalised.
• A campaign against Nick Clegg over rail cuts, despite nothing being announced!
• Preparing to ballot over unconfirmed plans to reduce catering in the next WCML franchise.

Those are just 4 examples taken from the RMT website (all on the first oage of the news archive) to show how aggressive they are, and in every single press release issued, Bob Crow has to say something derogatory about the railways. Is it any wonder the general public is disillusioned when they hear about more proposed industrial action on the railway? :roll:

Ill be honest here I have total sympathy with public sector workers having pay frozen and even cut.
I as a rail worker have been happy to accept a pay rise in line with inflation even during the "good times".
If this government is serious about us all being in it together why did they cut tax rates for the richest 5% of the nation.
Emt pension fund is 98% funded,I imagine that they do not want a pension holiday as the last time the rail industry adopted that approach a lot of schemes were put under pressure in subsequent years resulting in greater increased contributions from staff.
The RMT is a fighting,democratic union it makes no secret of this or any attempt to hide it.
Again ill ask the question why should I care about joe public if he doesn't care about me(I mean that in a general sense)not literally.
The market does decide prices and wages is this a good thing or a bad thing ?
ASLEF do not need to be as militant as the RMT as their members jobs are not threatened in the near future and they in general are in a greater position of power at the negotiating table.

 

[jon0844]

The heat speed restrictions have been implemented a number of times for at least the last 3 or 4 years. This is nothing new on the GEML so I don't see what the RMT are harping on about in this respect.

Easy press coverage.

And it has worked, with Twitter and blogs full of rants about the state of the railways and comments along the lines of 'it's not as if we didn't know the Olympics were happening' to suggest the wires should have been replaced in time.

If you're against the Olympics and there are plenty of people who are, you now have another link to add to your Tweets/Facebook anti-Olympics site and that means more coverage for the RMT.

Very simple but VERY effective. Bob knows the game and I have to respect him for that, as the RMT won't just issue a press release without ensuring it is noticed.

 

[Ferret]

I suggest people that are so unhappy in their jobs, just leave. The rest of us aren't especially interested, like you aren't interested in the problems involving our jobs. Either way, stop holding us all to ransom and putting up my fares and stopping to service many people rely on. I think it's time I maybe bought a car.

And if they do, you'll then be back moaning that your train has been cancelled because there are no traincrew!

 

[Metroland]

And if they do, you'll then be back moaning that your train has been cancelled because there are no traincrew!

500 people apply for each job last time I looked, doubt there is any shortage of takers.

 

[KA4C]

The rest of us aren't especially interested,

Really? and how many posts has it taken you thus far to demonstrate your lack of intrest

ike you aren't interested in the problems involving our jobs

Oh I am, do please enlighten me, I'm all ears, I'm trained to listen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

500 people apply for each job last time I looked, doubt there is any shortage of takers.

And do you have any idea of the cost in recruiting and training new staff, the lead in time to get them productive, etc

Or are you just shooting from the hip

Trust me TOC's try to retain staff, not get shot

 

[Ferret]

500 people apply for each job last time I looked, doubt there is any shortage of takers.

Might take a bit of time to train them up though!

 

[GB]

500 people apply for each job last time I looked, doubt there is any shortage of takers.

Won't really solve anything, the new employees once out of the honeymoon period will be just as disillusioned as the rest. A higher turnover of staff will also hit the companies bottom line so you will still end up with fare increases.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Metroland

If you think Fares go up because of Strikes you are so illusioned its quite sad

 

[Mojo]

This thread has largely been sensible, but there is one contribution which has been deleted as it is downright rude and adds nothing to the topic. If you want to reply to something someone has said, don't be rude as it takes away from the purpose of your (potentially otherwise valid) argument.

 

[Metroland]

Really? and how many posts has it taken you thus far to demonstrate your lack of intrest

No I'm not interested in the technicality of EMT pensions, you interested in mine? As a customer I'm interested in when I go to the station there is yet another board up telling me the service will be disrupted.

Ditto, if your internet kept going down, you'd be pretty *issed off after a while and probably change providers. You'd expect to get a "Sorry for the lack of service, we are all working together to rectify this problem"

You wouldn't be interested in the pension arrangements of the server engineers, nor would you expect to go onto a forum and get a mouth full of crap about capitalist pigs, left wing clap trap, oh we are just so important we deserve X.

Convince me to do business with you, and if the service isn't working why and how you are going to fix it. You'd expect that from any business you'd deal with, why should you make an exception for anyone else?

Might take a bit of time to train them up though!

Hence why an outside agency(ies) should be training them like all other forms of transport!

 

[Ferret]

Hence why an outside agency(ies) should be training them like all other forms of transport!

Hmmmm, look what happened when G4S attempted to train accredited persons for the Olympics...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hmmmm, look what happened when G4S attempted to train accredited persons for the Olympics...

and the chaos that are G4s manned barriers and ticket checks which has been going on for years, just read the literally hundreds of posts on here.

 

[GB]

Whether its done by the TOC or an agency, the training will still take the same or similar time scales.

 

[Metroland]

Hmmmm, look what happened when G4S attempted to train accredited persons for the Olympics...

But also look what happens in other forms of transport, a lot less industrial strife! People are free to leave jobs and take up others.

 

[Ferret]

Really?! Did I imagine the troubles at BA?

 

[Metroland]

Whether its done by the TOC or an agency, the training will still take the same or similar time scales.

Of course, point is, I can't find 'train driver training' when I search the internet. There is not a pool of staff ready to recruit.

Pilot training

http://www.oaa.com/

Truck driver training

http://www.thelgvtrainingcompany.co.uk/?gclid=CPTK9KH-tLECFcYmtAodTkwAZQ


Bus driver training

http://busdrivertraining.co.uk/

and so on

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But also look what happens in other forms of transport, a lot less industrial strife! People are free to leave jobs and take up others.

If you are a Lorry driver you can drive any type of "class" of that vehicle you are trained on can be any manufacturer just the class and if you want to get from A to B you can use a map or satnav

A Driver however only signs a certain amount of traction types for safety reasons as there can be major differences between all sort of Train Class and then you have to have the Route Knowledge for that route that in some cases can take months (usually weeks) just for one route alone

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever and you seem to lack the basic knowledge of how a driver is trained

 

[KA4C]

No I'm not interested in the technicality of EMT pensions, you interested in mine?

I refer you to the answer that I gave some moments ago, I'm a good listener, try me
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever and you seem to lack the basic knowledge of how a driver is trained

At least he is consistent, you have to give him that?

 

[radamfi]

Really?! Did I imagine the troubles at BA?

I was very surprised at how the cabin crew won this dispute, despite hard line tactics by Walsh. That demonstrates that unions can win even the most unlikely battles. Unions in the rail industry are obviously in a far more strong position, and therefore effectively untouchable. All union demands in the rail industry will have to be met, no matter what it costs the taxpayer.

 

[Metroland]

If you are a Lorry driver you can drive any type of "class" of that vehicle you are trained on can be any manufacturer just the class and if you want to get from A to B you can use a map or satnav

A Driver however only signs a certain amount of traction types for safety reasons as there can be major differences between all sort of Train Class and then you have to have the Route Knowledge for that route that in some cases can take months (usually weeks) just for one route alone

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever and you seem to lack the basic knowledge of how a driver is trained

I think not, I know exactly what it entails. Most of this can be gained in a class room or with simulators, similar to aviation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I refer you to the answer that I gave some moments ago, I'm a good listener, try me
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


At least he is consistent, you have to give him that?

Why don't you address the points about how you would feel about your internet going down instead of insulting me?

 

[blacknight]

Bottom line is that rail staff retain the right to withdraw their labour if in dispute with the employer

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think not, I know exactly what it entails. Most of this can be gained in a class room or with simulators, similar to aviation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why don't you address the points about how you would feel about your internet going down instead of insulting me?

You think not, more like you know very very little, ask any driver how different simple things like Braking points are between classes of units or the difference at leaf fall. you argument does not stand up to any scrutiny and just seems more of a rant against Drivers and Train crew in general.

 

[Metroland]

Bottom line is that rail staff retain the right to withdraw their labour

I firmly believe in any service the public relies on, it should go to arbitration first. In fact, for very essential services there should be no strike contracts - the railways probably don't come into that, apart from mainly in London, and possibly Glasgow and Leeds.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Bottom line is that rail staff retain the right to withdraw their labour if in dispute with the employer

Just like the Majority of people in the UK, which was a hard fought right, sometimes it inconviences people. Is it good of course not but we have the right to fight for what we believe in, some people find that basic right very hard to understand.

 

[Metroland]

You think not, more like you know very very little, ask any driver how different simple things like Braking points are between classes of units or the difference at leaf fall. you argument does not stand up to any scrutiny and just seems more of a rant against Drivers and Train crew in general.

Really? Higher grade than you ever were, assuming you are guard. You know nothing about me.