Sunday working - can of worms

[pt_mad]

Ok here goes at the risk of opening a can of worms! Basically I am interested in finding out people's opinions and views on the Sunday working situation.

I am not sure whether this is an industry wide thing or just confined to my toc, but basically at my toc anyone employed prior to x month/year does not have to work any Sundays full stop (unless they choose to).
Anyone taken on after x month/year must work minimum amount of Sundays, and on rostered this is usually 2 in 3. Pretty harsh considering this is roughly 35 a year while others don't do any.

As I say slight can of worms and I understand some of the longer serving employees may want to keep their rights but what happened to equal rights???

 

[Sanatogen]

I would imagine its down to what the conditions are when you sign a contract, they would have fought for the rights they currently have and as they retire or transfer toc less and less will have conditions different to yours.

We have the same where pre privatisation staff retained free travel and those who joined after don't.

 

[pt_mad]

I would imagine its down to what the conditions are when you sign a contract, they would have fought for the rights they currently have and as they retire or transfer toc less and less will have conditions different to yours.

We have the same where pre privatisation staff retained free travel and those who joined after don't.

Yeah I think the pre privatisation thing is industry wide, with travel etc.
The sunday thing isn't actually in anyone's contracts. Contracts are all the same and state Sundays are outside the working week.

It's all in the station workers handbook.

The problem is more prolific at my station to be honest, as there's only me who joined after x date so I am the only one forced into Sundays so its very much in my face so to speak.

 

[Sanatogen]

That seems odd though I've got no experience the station workers handbook, we have rostering principles which apply to everyone regardless of when you joined.

Our Sundays are rostered but you can opt out permanently or request individual ones off and if cover is available (usually is) you'll get them off.

Edit; although rostered they aren't part of the working week and are paid as overtime.

 

[156441]

West side of Northern (traincrew grades) are Sundays outside the working week. We are rostered to them but can show ourselves not available regardless of cover.

Most of our Sundays get covered though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to the above. I believe several years ago Northern wanted to change new starters terms/conditions and pay but the RMT went into dispute about it (dispute it not effecting the current workers) and the management backed down!

 

[Legzr1]

The problem is more prolific at my station to be honest, as there's only me who joined after June 01 so I am the only one forced into Sundays so its very much in my face so to speak.

The unfortunate fact remains: I guess you were in possession of the details before taking the job and signed up anyway?

If so, just let it go and be happy with the fact that all you're doing is what you signed up to do - nothing more, nothing less.

I'm guessing the fact you're working Sundays means you'll be having another RD during the week?
If so, make the most of it.

 

[455driver]

SWT train crew have Sundays as a normal working day and we work about half of them.

 

[reapz]

SWT train crew have Sundays as a normal working day and we work about half of them.

unless sunday is in your working week its illegal to make you work it, this has been tried and tested on the western by many.

 

[455driver]

Sunday is part of the working week at SWT!

 

[reapz]

Sunday is part of the working week!

For Swt ye not for the western

 

[455driver]

For Swt ye not for the western

My original post stated SWT, I have edited the latter one.

 

[CatfordCat]

Subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or a trade union rep or HR expert, I'm not sure.

There must be a heck of a lot of examples - and not just on the railways - of people who were employed before X date keeping some or all bits of terms / conditions that aren't available to employees who started after that date.

For example, a lot of workplace pension schemes were closed to newcomers at a particular date, then there are workplaces where a significant chunk of the staff were transferred from a former employer (due perhaps to a take-over or privatisation) and have held on to their old conditions.

It's also not uncommon for some enhancements to be made related to length of service, for example some bus companies make drivers' pay enhancements related to X years' service, in some parts of the public sector you get an extra week's holiday allowance after Y years, and so on.

There is precedent in UK employment law for 'indirect discrimination' - e.g. part time workers' rights were at least in part given greater equality with full time workers' because a high proportion of part time workers are women.

It might be possible to argue in law that different terms for long service workers amount to indirect age discrimination. I don't think there has been a test case on this.

Having said that, I don't know if that would trump the argument that all that's happening is that each employee's contract - that they entered into when they started their jobs - is being honoured.

It's also one of those situations where you should be careful what you wish for - even if this did lead to a legal challenge and the courts decided that there was discrimination, do you think that employers would seek to 'equalise up' or 'equalise down'?

There is a parallel with local authority workers where attempts to equalise pay between jobs held to be of equivalent value, where jobs traditionally done mainly by men (e.g. refuse collectors) have tended to have higher pay than jobs traditionally done by women (e.g. school cooks) - what's tended to happen (and there's currently a dispute in Brighton about it) is that the men involved have had pay cuts, not that the women have had pay rises...

 

[Geargrinder]

West side of Northern (traincrew grades) are Sundays outside the working week. We are rostered to them but can show ourselves not available regardless of cover.

Most of our Sundays get covered though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to the above. I believe several years ago Northern wanted to change new starters terms/conditions and pay but the RMT went into dispute about it (dispute it not effecting the current workers) and the management backed down!

That's why the RMT, and ASLEF, are such excellent unions. Many other employers outside the railway have massively changed T&C's, Pensions etc for new starters on the back of leaving existing employees alone and the unions have caved in and let it happen.

 

[pt_mad]

The unfortunate fact remains: I guess you were in possession of the details before taking the job and signed up anyway?

If so, just let it go and be happy with the fact that all you're doing is what you signed up to do - nothing more, nothing less.

I'm guessing the fact you're working Sundays means you'll be having another RD during the week?
If so, make the most of it.

Nobody knows the full detail before signing up as tocs don't tend to explain in detail that you will be expected to work Sundays when the longer serving employees there don't and that not everyone in that role/grade has the same rules. Plus nobody knows how many Sundays are in individual rosters until they get to the station.

They are not really honouring the contract as like I said there is nothing about Sundays in the contract other than its outside the working week. Its all in the station handbook which you get later.

I thought it was standard practice to expect the same rules and expectations/standards across the board for the same grade and role at a particular station. Thus fair.

Its not a case of shut up and accept it. If it were whats the point in unions and rights at all?
As far as having another RD during the week, nope we don't its a 4 day week PLUS 2 out of 3 rostered Sundays (essentially a 5th day) where you are told to work. Paid at normal rate (not OT).

 

[Legzr1]

Nobody knows the full detail before signing up as tocs don't tend to explain in detail that you will be expected to work Sundays when the longer serving employees there don't and that not everyone in that role/grade has the same rules. Plus nobody knows how many Sundays are in individual rosters until they get to the station.

With all due respect (and to stop this getting into a slanging match) I'd say it's your responsibilty to research what your job entails before accepting it!

Didn't you think to ask what hours and days you were contracted/expected to work?

I thought it was standard practice to expect the same rules and expectations/standards across the board for the same grade and role at a particular station.

Quite clearly, unfortunately, that is not the case.

Its not a case of shut up and accept it. If it were whats the point in unions and rights at all?

Well, as blunt as it may sound, that is exactly the case.

Unions are there to fight for your rights if your employer tries to undermine/fails to honour what you signed up for (as they did for those doing the same job as you but with better seniority).
They aren't there to try and change the terms of a contract you have already accepted (and were probably happy with until your discovered the 'unfairness' of senior employees contracts).

It might be worth having a word with whatever union you happen to a member of as changes might be possible in future pay/ terms & conditions negotiations.

I suggest you forget about it for now for one simple reason - you'll end up all bitter in the long run and will end up hating going to work - let it go before it's too late.

As far as having another RD during the week, nope we don't its a 4 day week PLUS 2 out of 3 rostered Sundays (essentially a 5th day) where you are told to work. Paid at normal rate (not OT).

So not a four day week then...

 

[BestWestern]

At a certain TOC I know of, some train crew grades have sundays 'outside of the working week' at present, which means that it is entirely their choice whether or not they work. The sunday jobs are rostered as a normal part of the link, but on any given sunday any number of those staff with rostered turns may in fact not be at work, having chosen to 'opt out'. The rostering office will try various 'tactics' to encourage people to come in, of varying degrees of morality depending on how desperate they are for staff, including trying to convince people that actually they have to work when quite clearly they do not. Most of the work is usually covered by other people voluntarily working 'extra' sundays as overtime however, which benefits both those who want the day off and those who want some overtime. The rather ambiguous 'official' line is that staff are expected to work their booked sundays, however from a contractual point of view any demand to do so is completely unenforceable.

The RMT have stated that they would now never surrender the entitlement not to work sundays, not even discussing it during any pay talks, because they see it as a fundamental right of the staff not to have to work on that day. It also, rather conveniently, means that a 'work to rule' situation can occur in the event of a dispute and cripple the train service without the inconvenience of calling a full strike and all the paperwork that goes with it.

The OP asked for opinions; personally I feel that it is a '24/7' (almost) railway network, and if people wish to work within that industry then common sense says they should be willing to cover the full range of hours. The pay is really rather good for most grades, it isn't unreasonable to expect the staff to turn up when they're asked to. Sundays are no longer for most people some kind of holy grail, it is simply a day off work to do the shopping or wash the car or whatever, and that can take place quite easily on any day of the week. Regarding disputes, I have no issue with proper strikes being called when necessary, but it makes the whole situation rather farcical when it happens every week for months just because 'we can'.

 

[GB]

Nobody knows the full detail before signing up as tocs don't tend to explain in detail that you will be expected to work Sundays when the longer serving employees there don't and that not everyone in that role/grade has the same rules. Plus nobody knows how many Sundays are in individual rosters until they get to the station.

They are not really honouring the contract as like I said there is nothing about Sundays in the contract other than its outside the working week. Its all in the station handbook which you get later.

I thought it was standard practice to expect the same rules and expectations/standards across the board for the same grade and role at a particular station. Thus fair.

Its not a case of shut up and accept it. If it were whats the point in unions and rights at all?


Its not even really a long service reward as there are people who have been employed since 2002 who will NEVER get the refuse Sundays even in another 5 years etc.

As far as having another RD during the week, nope we don't its a 4 day week PLUS 2 out of 3 rostered Sundays (essentially a 5th day) where you are told to work. Paid at normal rate (not OT).

Surely you could ring/email the manager or HR prior to applying to find out job details or failing that use the interview to ask the questions that are important to you (pay and T&Cs etc)? If you don't get a satisfactory answer your obviously free to either not to apply or chose not to take the job if it is offered to you.

It sounds like a case of "they have it so I want it".

 

[pt_mad]

Yes it does make one slightly bitter but its not so wrong to want a bit more fairness and equal treatment

 

[richw]

Noting the various contracts depending on when you started, this is the same in near enough every industry. Normally newer contracts have often worse conditions for staff than older contracts.

In one of my previous employments, staff who had worked for the company prior to 2005 were paid an enhanced hourly rate between 8pm and 6am, employees who joined after 2005 only received enhanced hourly rate between midnight and 5am

 

[Tom C]

They are not really honouring the contract as like I said there is nothing about Sundays in the contract other than its outside the working week. Its all in the station handbook which you get later.

If your contract states that Sundays are outside of the working week then there must be an opt-out for you not to have to work them?

Does this "Station handbook" constitute your terms and conditions? If not then that is the place to start. If you are still a BR grade (i.e RO1 or RO2) then your terms are likely to come from the blue book. If this station handbook is your terms and conditions then could you quote the clause saying you MUST work your Sundays even though they outside of the working week? Do you get paid overtime to work those Sundays? Even if it is flat rate (i.e time or 100%) it is still overtime and paid over and above your normal salary.

It is not unusual for grades to be "rostered" to work Sundays but still retain the right not to work them.

 

[A-driver]

If Sundays are overtime but you are expected to work them but choose not to there isn't a lot they can do about it. If you refuse you may be called into meetings etc but they can't actually sack you for it. They will obviously look on you unfavourably as a result and you may find your colleagues doing the same as they have to do all your work for you but there is no such thing as compulsory overtime.

 

[TDK]

If Sundays are overtime but you are expected to work them but choose not to there isn't a lot they can do about it. If you refuse you may be called into meetings etc but they can't actually sack you for it. They will obviously look on you unfavourably as a result and you may find your colleagues doing the same as they have to do all your work for you but there is no such thing as compulsory overtime.

If you sign a contract to work rostered Sundays as commited but overtime and outside the working week they can sack you for not working Sundays without requesting it as you are in breach of your contract.

 

[pt_mad]

If you sign a contract to work rostered Sundays as commited but overtime and outside the working week they can sack you for not working Sundays without requesting it as you are in breach of your contract.

Like I say my contract / copy of terms and conditions and their contracts are exactly he same to the word. Both say Sundays outside the working week / overtime but paid at flat hourly rate if worked.

However in seperate handbook which is acompanying guide not terms and conditions, it states that before x date you can opt out of Sundays, after x date rostered in and expected to work. And this is what roster clerks put into practice. Before x date are not asked to work any Sundays (if they have opted out permanantly) / newer ones rostered in no questions.

And again nobody knew the answers to this at interview or induction courses. Head office do not have specific roster knowledge for individual locations. They do not know how many Sundays are required/rostered at locations and they obviously do not put it out there that newer employees will cover Sundays that older employees wont.


I don't think collegues would look unfavourably at newer employees refusing Sundays as they are refusing theirs themselves but its allowed because they started before x date so its acutally newer people who are covering them.

 

[CatfordCat]

Like I say my contract / copy of terms and conditions and their contracts are exactly he same to the word. Both say Sundays outside the working week / overtime but paid at flat hourly rate if worked.

However in seperate handbook .... .

Again, subject to the disclaimer I'm not a lawyer...

The formal 'contract of employment' document is fairly important, and you may just have a case here.

Having said that, subsidiary documents (e.g. staff handbooks, policy statements) can legally be held constitute part of your employment contract, and 'custom and practice' (i.e. something that's been allowed to happen for some time) can also be considered part of an employment contract.

One for referring to your local union rep / steward?

 

[A-driver]

You may find anyway that if Sundays are paid extra there won't be any shortage of people wanting to work them so even if you can't opt out you will find people who are happy to work them for you. This is certainly the case with drivers on companies with compulsory Sundays outside and is the same with those who have voluntary Sundays judging by the list of names on the sheet volunteering for extra Sundays.

 

[TDK]

Like I say my contract / copy of terms and conditions and their contracts are exactly he same to the word. Both say Sundays outside the working week / overtime but paid at flat hourly rate if worked.

However in seperate handbook which is acompanying guide not terms and conditions, it states that before x date you can opt out of Sundays, after x date rostered in and expected to work. And this is what roster clerks put into practice. Before x date are not asked to work any Sundays (if they have opted out permanantly) / newer ones rostered in no questions.

And again nobody knew the answers to this at interview or induction courses. Head office do not have specific roster knowledge for individual locations. They do not know how many Sundays are required/rostered at locations and they obviously do not put it out there that newer employees will cover Sundays that older employees wont.


I don't think collegues would look unfavourably at newer employees refusing Sundays as they are refusing theirs themselves but its allowed because they started before x date so its acutally newer people who are covering them.

That is not quite correct where I work, most of the Sundays are covered by drivers who want the overtime and volunteer for them if they are available. If you want to opt out of a Sunday at the depot I work for you need to give 10 days notice and both the union reps and rosters will try to cover them.

 

[plastictaffy]

Sundays at my place (for guards anyway) are an odd one. Anybody that's been there longer than me doesn't have to work them. I don't have to work them, however I am rostered 11 out of 36. (So around one in three)

If I do not want to work them, I must mark myself RDNA before the booked sunday. If they can be covered by volunteers, all well and good. If there are not enough volunteers for them, I can be contractually forced to do them. If it's a black ink turn for me, I generally work it, and I believe that most (if not all) of the guards at my depot do them.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The answer's easy. If you don't want to work on a Sunday don't work for an organisation that operates seven days a week.

 

[whhistle]

That's why the RMT, and ASLEF, are such excellent unions. Many other employers outside the railway have massively changed T&C's, Pensions etc for new starters on the back of leaving existing employees alone and the unions have caved in and let it happen.

But in keeping the same terms and conditions, the Union make new workers feel like a second class worker!
Why can't people accept that things change? Yes, even for the bad, but that's life - you still have a job! What Union members seem to be blind to is the fact if the company makes conditions too bad then moral will fall significantly, dropping share prices, visions, values and all that stuff. Companies won't change as much as the Union suggest they will. Many other industries work fine with minimal Union input.

While I agree the Union does some good, I feel they do much more bad than good.

I've said it many times before, I don't understand what obsession this country has when it comes to Sunday working. Sunday should simply be another day of the week to everyone apart from those of particular religions.
It's only because our country has traditionally been a "Christian" country that Sundays have been the "day of rest". If you aren't part of that religion, why should it affect you working on a Sunday?

 

[Harpers Tate]

It seems to me that the Railway (alongside various other forms of employment; healthcare; gas, electricity, water other examples) is fundamentally a seven-day industry.

It seems to me that it's an historic concept that, in any such industry, Sundays are "special". One cannot even treat it like this on religious grounds either; as we become multi-cultural (whether we agree with that or not) the day of special religious significance varies between faiths - and hence between employees.

It is entirely right and proper that people entering such industries should do so in the acknowledgement that they are entering a seven-day business, and that they will be expected to work in a pattern that includes all seven days.

It seems to me that this seven-day working concept was not always thought of as such and that Sundays were seen as "overtime".

One cannot easily change the terms and conditions of people who entered employment under older terms. But it seems entirely appropriate that new incumbents will be under a seven-day contract. It's equal treatment to the extent that each person is employed according to the contract terms applicable, and to which they agreed, when they joined.

Indeed, the sooner healthcare workers (including GPs and surgeons) are recruited under a seven day contract (and earlier recruits either agree to new terms, or retire) the sooner we will have a better health service, all week round. Likewise railway employees.

Persons not wishing to join a seven-day industry should not do so; they should choose work elsewhere.