TfW to operate HSTs between Cardiff and Holyhead?

[EE Andy b1]

Virgin XC in the past with a good idea!

https://flic.kr/p/qF8g9L

 

[Chester1]

2+4 or 2+5 would make the most sense because they can match 158 and 175 timings but also provide more capacity. TfW would really benefit from any extra capacity. I suspect TfW will shaft Manchester passengers by reducing Manchester-Llandudno services to 2 coaches when Northern introduce Leeds-Chester services in May. If they do this then some 5 coach HSTs between Chester and Llandudno Junction would help to relieve capacity.

 

[hexagon789]

Virgin XC did run a 2+2 once in place of a 158.

Indeed, got a photo of that in a book somewhere! That must've taken off like a super-powered rocket, utterly thrashing the 158 timings I imagine!

 

[nat67]

When is TFW going to be starting training as like ScotRail it looks as if it will be late.

 

[Chester1]

When is TFW going to be starting training as like ScotRail it looks as if it will be late.

Scotrail delays are because the refurbishment works to meet the PRM-TSI law have been a disaster. TfW are only using HSTs until the end of the year therefore they don't require work.

 

[nat67]

Scotrail delays are because the refurbishment works to meet the PRM-TSI law have been a disaster. TfW are only using HSTs until the end of the year therefore they don't require work.

Yes but the training still takes time as did Hull and ScotRail for both guard and driver's.

 

[Brissle Girl]

With only 2 diagrams they can get away with only having a limited number trained in the first instance. Don’t suppose there will be a shortage of drivers willing to volunteer!

 

[Chester1]

Yes but the training still takes time as did Hull and ScotRail for both guard and driver's.

There are no real deadlines for introducing units outside of the franchise agreement. They will introduce them when they can.

 

[_toommm_]

Anything below 2+4 IIRC can't run to differential speeds due to lower braking force because of less carriages, so if there are any differential speeds for HSTs on this route, it would make sense to use 2+4 as a minimum.

 

[hexagon789]

Anything below 2+4 IIRC can't run to differential speeds due to lower braking force because of less carriages, so if there are any differential speeds for HSTs on this route, it would make sense to use 2+4 as a minimum.

I keep seeing this trotted out, but I've yet to see evidence backing it up. A engineer who worked on the HSTs when new including on braking tests, assured me that after the two-stage braking was isolated and the brake pad material changed there was nothing to stop even two back-to-back power cars doing 125mph safely.

 

[_toommm_]

I keep seeing this trotted out, but I've yet to see evidence backing it up. A engineer who worked on the HSTs when new including on braking tests, assured me that after the two-stage braking was isolated and the brake pad material changed there was nothing to stop even two back-to-back power cars doing 125mph safely.

It may be possible, but I believe there are still regs in place regardless, although I'm happy to be corrected...

 

[hexagon789]

It may be possible, but I believe there are still regs in place regardless, although I'm happy to be corrected...

They won't being doing anymore than 90 anyway, so I don't imagine it will affect timings much.

 

[Chester1]

Why use less than 4? There are enough unused standard class ex GWR Mark IIIs to form 3 sets of either 4 or 5 carriages. The the cost of leasing extra carriages that are due to be scrapped shouldn't cost much more. Are there platforms the route that cannot fit 2+4 or 5? Do GWR HSTs have SDO?

 

[hexagon789]

Why use less than 4? There are enough unused standard class ex GWR Mark IIIs to form 3 sets of either 4 or 5 carriages. The the cost of leasing extra carriages that are due to be scrapped shouldn't cost much more. Are there platforms the route that cannot fit 2+4 or 5? Do GWR HSTs have SDO?

Using less than 2+4 does seem pointless unless there are good operational reasons for not doing so.

 

[nat67]

Why use less than 4? There are enough unused standard class ex GWR Mark IIIs to form 3 sets of either 4 or 5 carriages. The the cost of leasing extra carriages that are due to be scrapped shouldn't cost much more. Are there platforms the route that cannot fit 2+4 or 5? Do GWR HSTs have SDO?

Technically all HST's have SDO. So by opening the door unlock box in a vestibule either end of the Mk3.

 

[43096]

Technically all HST's have SDO. So by opening the door unlock box in a vestibule either end of the Mk3.

Technically you’re wrong. For a start there are only two CDL panels per vehicle, at diagonally opposite corners of the vehicle.

 

[CC 72100]

And not at all panels either!

(TGS 'van' ones do not have SDO functionality).

 

[43096]

And not at all panels either!

(TGS 'van' ones do not have SDO functionality).

Only GWR and the ex-Grand Central sets have SDO, I believe.

 

[CC 72100]

Only GWR and the ex-Grand Central sets have SDO, I believe.

I think the XC ones have a form of SDO too, as they have stopped at Hayle (4 vehicles) and Patchway (4 vehicles during diversions) in the past.

There are stickers above the end seats of the each coach, I believe 'P' = (CDL) panel, and 'S' = (CDL) panel with SDO.

 

[43096]

I think the XC ones have a form of SDO too, as they have stopped at Hayle (4 vehicles) and Patchway (4 vehicles during diversions) in the past.

There are stickers above the end seats of the each coach, I believe 'P' = (CDL) panel, and 'S' = (CDL) panel with SDO.

Forgot about XC - never use them!

 

[sw1ller]

As these are just replacing the 175 diagrams, I would assume 4 would be the maximum. 4 can fit at Shotton Ruabon and Chirk. 5 wont. Shotton won’t matter much as not many (if any, I don’t look into it in any detail) holyhead trains stop there anyway. I don’t know station lengths south of Shrewsbury.

Edit:

If I was going to put a bet down though, it’ll be 2+3 as this will fit across the island too, there’ll be no change to how a 3 car is worked now (as in 1 door only at llanfairpg, Conway & valley)

 

[EE Andy b1]

I think if it happens the HST sets for TfW will be 2+4 on most services but lock out the rearmost vehicle on certain trains if need be. Simples!!

 

[Chester1]

As these are just replacing the 175 diagrams, I would assume 4 would be the maximum. 4 can fit at Shotton Ruabon and Chirk. 5 wont. Shotton won’t matter much as not many (if any, I don’t look into it in any detail) holyhead trains stop there anyway. I don’t know station lengths south of Shrewsbury.

Edit:

If I was going to put a bet down though, it’ll be 2+3 as this will fit across the island too, there’ll be no change to how a 3 car is worked now (as in 1 door only at llanfairpg, Conway & valley)

It really would be a waste of an oppertunity if they can use 2+4 but choose 2+3. After chronic under investment in rolling stock under the last franchise its an opportunity to provide a huge number of advance tickets and remove them from other busy services.

 

[kieron]

Anything below 2+4 IIRC can't run to differential speeds due to lower braking force because of less carriages, so if there are any differential speeds for HSTs on this route, it would make sense to use 2+4 as a minimum.

The SA PDF on the NR site lists no HST speed limits, but plenty of MU ones. It also says these can't be used by HSTs with less than three coaches. I can't imagine this being an issue here.

As these are just replacing the 175 diagrams, I would assume 4 would be the maximum. 4 can fit at Shotton Ruabon and Chirk. 5 wont. Shotton won’t matter much as not many (if any, I don’t look into it in any detail) holyhead trains stop there anyway. I don’t know station lengths south of Shrewsbury.

When ATW started using a loco hauled train between Manchester and North Wales, they dropped Shotton calls from the services it covered. If it turned out to be an issue here, I suppose they could do it again.

None of the trains 158srule listed are scheduled to call at Shotton, for what that's worth.

 

[43096]

I think if it happens the HST sets for TfW will be 2+4 on most services but lock out the rearmost vehicle on certain trains if need be. Simples!!

Or just use the SDO system. Even simpler. Besides you can’t easily lock out a vehicle on (ex-)GWR HSTs as the end ‘butterfly’ doors were removed by FGW.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Or just use the SDO system. Even simpler. Besides you can’t easily lock out a vehicle on (ex-)GWR HSTs as the end ‘butterfly’ doors were removed by FGW.

Ah, didn't realise the end doors were removed!!

 

[nat67]

Technically you’re wrong. For a start there are only two CDL panels per vehicle, at diagonally opposite corners of the vehicle.

As I said either end. Okay Buffets only have one in the normal slam door end but only on the left hand side?

 

[sw1ller]

Can you lock out an end door on a HST without contravening the rule book just for a station stop? I see no time frame in the rule book, so even if it’s just for 2 minutes while you stop, it’s still going against the rule book.

I don’t work none gangwayed trains so I don’t look into this in great detail much. Can anyone clarify if I’m getting confused here?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 6.pdf

TW5 6.1


6.1 Vehicles which must be placed out of use
You must place a vehicle out of public use and arrange to transfer passengers to another vehicle if the following doors are defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle and also the nearest door on the next vehicle
• a door only used as an emergency exit at the leading end of the first passenger vehicle or the trailing end of the last one.
You must not allow a vehicle to enter or continue in public use unless your train operator’s control has given permission, and you have carried out any necessary instructions they have given you if the following doors are defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle but the nearest door on the next vehicle is available for use
• a door at the leading end of the first passenger-carrying vehicle
• a trailing-end door of the last passenger-carrying vehicle.
Leading and trailing in all cases also applies to vehicles where there is no gangway between vehicles, or when the adjacent vehicle is out of use due to defective bodyside doors.
The following colours show:
Yellow door - Door out of use.
Black door - An emergency door that is out of use.
Red coach - Passengers cannot use this vehicle.
Yellow coach - Permission needed for passengers to use vehicle. Green coach - Passengers can use this vehicle.

Then there’s an illustration using a HST as an example.

 

[hexagon789]

Can you lock out an end door on a HST without contravening the rule book just for a station stop? I see no time frame in the rule book, so even if it’s just for 2 minutes while you stop, it’s still going against the rule book.

I don’t work none gangwayed trains so I don’t look into this in great detail much. Can anyone clarify if I’m getting confused here?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 6.pdf

TW5 6.1


6.1 Vehicles which must be placed out of use
You must place a vehicle out of public use and arrange to transfer passengers to another vehicle if the following doors are defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle and also the nearest door on the next vehicle
• a door only used as an emergency exit at the leading end of the first passenger vehicle or the trailing end of the last one.
You must not allow a vehicle to enter or continue in public use unless your train operator’s control has given permission, and you have carried out any necessary instructions they have given you if the following doors are defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle but the nearest door on the next vehicle is available for use
• a door at the leading end of the first passenger-carrying vehicle
• a trailing-end door of the last passenger-carrying vehicle.
Leading and trailing in all cases also applies to vehicles where there is no gangway between vehicles, or when the adjacent vehicle is out of use due to defective bodyside doors.
The following colours show:
Yellow door - Door out of use.
Black door - An emergency door that is out of use.
Red coach - Passengers cannot use this vehicle.
Yellow coach - Permission needed for passengers to use vehicle. Green coach - Passengers can use this vehicle.

Then there’s an illustration using a HST as an example.

So if they do run 2+4, they'd need to lock a whole coach out then?

 

[nat67]

So if they do run 2+4, they'd need to lock a whole coach out then?

Should it not make any difference as the WAG runs as load 4 and runs the exact same route. Plus if there will be a TGS it really makes no difference.