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Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

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philjo

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Personally I think that one of the Cambridge services should run via Hertford during this period, though this would mean the path needs amending for one of the services north of Stevenage. it could run into Kings Cross so it doesn't affect other Thameslink services.

otherwise: send one of the Thameslink Cambridge stopper services that is currently planned to call at Welwyn/ Hatfield etc to Peterborough (or the bay at huntingdon) instead and run a separate hourly Kings cross (or Moorgate) via Hertford service to Cambridge service. That would also solve the issue with the planned peterborough/Welwyn connections at stevenage !
 
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Ianno87

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I'd have thought the platform should've been funded by the Thameslink work as ultimately it's linked to that. It can't cost that much to build a bay platform given the overall Thameslink Programme budget.

A bay platform built by the Thameslink Programme will cost exactly the same as one not built by the Thameslink Programme. And the money comes from exactly the same place.
 

Hadders

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Personally I think that one of the Cambridge services should run via Hertford during this period, though this would mean the path needs amending for one of the services north of Stevenage. it could run into Kings Cross so it doesn't affect other Thameslink services.

otherwise: send one of the Thameslink Cambridge stopper services that is currently planned to call at Welwyn/ Hatfield etc to Peterborough (or the bay at huntingdon) instead and run a separate hourly Kings cross (or Moorgate) via Hertford service to Cambridge service. That would also solve the issue with the planned peterborough/Welwyn connections at stevenage !

I agree with this but I don't think there's any capacity to run more services to Peterborough. All the additional services are running to Cambridge. In fact, anyone wishing to travel from Potter Bar-Knebworth to Arlesey-Huntingdon will be forced to change at Stevenage with the proposed timetable with a wait of up to 23 minutes at Stevenage!

A bay platform built by the Thameslink Programme will cost exactly the same as one not built by the Thameslink Programme. And the money comes from exactly the same place.

I agree that the cost is the same. The bustitution is a consequence of the Thameslink Programme's desire to run more services between London and Cambridge/Peterborough which is why I think the cost of the additional platform should've been included in the budget.

Ultimately, whichever pot of money is used to fund it doesn't matter but the bustitution of rail services until further notice between Stevenage and Hertford is totally unacceptable.
 

jon0844

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IThere is no 'railway' land that could be sold off for flats so I really don't know how or why flats can be part of the issue.

I believe it's land in the leisure centre car park that will be built on. As ever, you reduce car parking space to build new property that increases the need for car parking space!

Maybe a multi-storey car park could be an answer, either on the leisure park or the other side of the road (in town), but all of this will presumably be down to the council which probably doesn't have the money, or any sense of urgency, to do it.
 

buzzword

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The overnight timetable retains the same Bedford to Three Bridges half-hourly mainline services. There is no mention of any other overnight services, e.g. from Peterborough or Cambridge; although it does say that "Late night trains (departing between 23:30 and 05:00) are subject to further consultation."

All-night trains have been a feature of Thameslink since as long as I can remember; and I believe the line is unique in the UK in this respect. What was the original rationale behind the all-night service? If it's just to serve the airports, isn't it odd that neither the Heathrow nor Gatwick Express services run all night?

If I could understand the original motivation, I could take a guess at whether we'll see all-night trains on any other Thameslink branches (or indeed on any other Govia services).
 
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tsr

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The overnight timetable retains the same Bedford to Three Bridges half-hourly mainline services. There is no mention of any other overnight services, e.g. from Peterborough or Cambridge; although it does say that "Late night trains (departing between 23:30 and 05:00) are subject to further consultation."

All-night trains have been a feature of Thameslink since as long as I can remember; and I believe the line is unique in the UK in this respect. What was the original rationale behind the all-night service? If it's just to serve the airports, isn't it odd that the neither the Heathrow nor Gatwick Express services run all night?

If I could understand the original motivation, I could take a guess at whether we'll see all-night trains on any other Thameslink branches (or indeed on any other Govia services).

Southern used to have overnight services every hour, every night between Victoria and Three Bridges (with a few extended to Brighton). There was a lengthy thread on these forums - as well as much discussion amongst employees internally, many of whom were affected in getting to and from shifts - when this service was reduced to weekend-only (Fri->Sat and Sat->Sun nights), which is how it currently stands.

The supposed rationale for the reduction was to allow extra engineering works to fix common faults which could hinder the daytime service, but TL run over much of the same infrastructure every night and have encountered few if any difficulties (with the "headways", or time between services, easily allowing a further 1 train per hour, as existed before), and extra works have been both minuscule in scale, and few and far between. (There was also a suggestion that the reduction in service was only for six months or so - we are about to come to the point where we'd hear about services reintroduced, yet there have been basically no reinstatements put forward so far!)

The Bedford - Three Bridges service, as now, is not half-hourly through each night, but it would be good if this were the case. There has been a trial of a uniform half-hourly overnight service from St Pancras northwards, and I think all are awaiting the results of how successful that's been.

Compared to Southern, Gatwick Express has been similarly decimated overnight. There used to be some pretty useful departures when there were few other quick alternatives to get to the airport for an early flight - now, it can seem the choices are rather spartan. The drivers are also not trained to navigate around so many critical areas where engineering works could be (especially overnight), as Thameslink and some Southern drivers are, because they have lost the "route knowledge" of a whole host of diversions round South London, instead gaining the route down to Brighton in the daytime, which was previously crewed by Southern, with crew changes en route.

Other Govia / Go Ahead rail services may not be conventionally "overnight", but both London Midland and Great Northern do at least run some trains so early and late that they may as well be, just without trains running consistently both north and southbound through the whole night. There are also some overnight local services provided by GWR between Reading and Paddington, and on Transpennine routes in the North of England, mainly related to Manchester Airport and between major towns and cities.

I think it is anyone's guess whether the service on the Great Northern routes transferring (in whole or part) to Thameslink will ever be run overnight at a slightly more uniform and sensible frequency in both directions. The Southern and Thameslink services have had considerable tourist potential between London and the airports, and vice versa, as well as transporting shift workers to and from London suburbs. This sort of thing can make the service viable, and a careful study would be needed to make sure the service wasn't quite literally a case of fresh air being carted around. An overnight service, even hourly, as far as Peterborough or Cambridge would still need quite a few units and crews, with associated expense and resourcing (eg. work rostering, with possible new night shift volumes) issues. You have to also pick and choose which towns you should serve, which are viable for use by sufficient passengers, and whether station staffing and dispatch procedures will need to be changed.

There is also the issue of overnight engineering and diversions to consider. GN is not the worst off when it comes to this, but a lot of railways would struggle with being able to divert around track maintenance. The moment you put a bus on duty instead of a train (especially with a time penalty, bearing in mind London's convoluted road system), fewer people will use it, so it's no good just saying you'll run road transport instead.

Once you commit to running anything beyond an experimental service, people also start to rely on it more and more, which is not just an issue when you start to do replacement transport, but also if you have limited capacity which is not expanded on (say) Friday evenings, or if you withdraw the service as Southern did. Anything not specified by franchise / management contract obligations could be difficult to oblige the operator to keep running!

Timetable consultations I've seen do seem to want to work more closely to a standard "clockface" template throughout the day, ranging from early morning to late evening, against the current mashup of stopping patterns which plagues Southern and Thameslink during peak hours, and massively hinders reliability and service recovery. I would say this is hopeful for forming an easy-to-use base for rolling forwards and backwards into the smaller hours of the night, just sequentially adding more trains into the plan, but how quickly this can happen is pure speculation.
 
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jon0844

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With so many (most or even all?) stations on Great Northern now staffed overnight, there would be no real issues running trains between 1-3am and 3-5am (hence why staff work through the night) in terms of keeping a station open and dispatching where required.

So it would really just be the extra drivers needed and changes to diagrams as appropriate.

As it stands, there is engineering work during the week of course but usually trains can still run, whether freight or test runs for the 700s and the post train etc. I think it's only really Sunday morning that is a no-go. Plus you could put on buses when the trains absolutely can't run.
 
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bramling

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Personally I think that one of the Cambridge services should run via Hertford during this period, though this would mean the path needs amending for one of the services north of Stevenage. it could run into Kings Cross so it doesn't affect other Thameslink services.

otherwise: send one of the Thameslink Cambridge stopper services that is currently planned to call at Welwyn/ Hatfield etc to Peterborough (or the bay at huntingdon) instead and run a separate hourly Kings cross (or Moorgate) via Hertford service to Cambridge service. That would also solve the issue with the planned peterborough/Welwyn connections at stevenage !

The track layout is such that the Huntingdon bay can only be reached from the up side and via a shunt. Reversing at Huntingdon can currently only be done via a main line shunt, either at Huntingdon north, or more conveniently at Connington. To change this will cost money in the form of new crossovers plus signalling changes. We've already established that the expectation is to shove Thameslink into the GN side with somewhere between minimal and no infrastructure work and expect it to all work beautifully thanks to a new regulating strategy...
 
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bramling

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It's nothing to do with the number of trains, there are enough of those.

An additional bay platform is required at Stevenage as the enhanced Off Peak service to Cambridge means there are insufficient paths to turnback Hertford trains in Platform 4, or indeed insufficient paths to run them to Letchworth and terminate them there.

I believe there are plans for the new platform at Stevenage but it' not funded. I don't know who should be funding it or whether flat are involved. I know there is debate about the regeneration of the town centre but I'd have thought this is a separate issue entirely. There is no 'railway' land that could be sold off for flats so I really don't know how or why flats can be part of the issue.

I'd have thought the platform should've been funded by the Thameslink work as ultimately it's linked to that. It can't cost that much to build a bay platform given the overall Thameslink Programme budget.

I still don't think the full enhanced Off Peak timetable should operate until this is resolved.

I do wonder if there may be a grain of truth to the lack of trains. Currently in the peaks the Moorgate services reverse at Stevenage, apart from those running from or to the Letchworth sidings. If reversing at Stevenage is not feasible due to inability to path the services in and out of platform 4, extending them to Letchworth surely shouldn't be too impossible- especially with the Hitchin flyover now in full use. But,to do this would probably require an extra train - at peak time when the fleet is already in full use.

But nonetheless I agree with the general sentiments - the situation is unsatisfactory.
 

Minstral25

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The plans for the night services are not in the consultation but indications seem to be that the Gatwick/BML overnights are going to run from Blackfriars to East Croydon without intermediate stops. Then they can go via several routes and maintenance can be worked on any of the routes without affecting the service. There will then be no overnight trains from London Bridge or Victoria.
 

philjo

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I see there is now an October update.

for GN they have added in : Royston & Letchworth – Reviewing morning stops. I'm wondering if some of the proposed Baldock starters will be revised to start at Royston as at present?

https://www.transformingrail.com/-/media/goahead/transforming-rail/files/were-working-on.pdf

We’re working on…. October 2017 update Phased 2 closed at the end of July and we are still working on the issues and requests raised. Please note that this list is not exhaustive…. And in no particular order…. October 2017 update In addition to the August update we are also working on the following; Royston & Letchworth – Reviewing morning stops. Waddon – services to Epsom seem have a gap in the early morning (between 0618 & 0748) – being reviewed. Plumpton – seem to be missing a service between 0754 & 0929 – being reviewed. Littlehaven – no direct services to Chichester in the morning peak – being reviewed. East Coastway – (Brighton to Ashford services) – Working with rail user groups from the area on proposals. Thursday 3 August 2017 Mole Valley – Reviewing the 2 late peak trains from London Bridge that used to stop. Amberley – Reviewing the peak train service with a view to adding stops at Amberley. Royston & Letchworth – Reviewing the stops for Royston on the fast Kings Cross services after 1912 with a view to re-instating. Redhill/Tonbridge to Victoria – Following concerns raised by removing the direct service from Tonbridge to Victoria we are reviewing the services in the area. Clapham Junction stops on Brighton services – We are reviewing these services. My school trains for South Croydon is missing – They’re coming back in. My school train on the Tonbridge line is a too early – That’s being retimed to a bit later. Hackbridge – Reviewing number of trains stopping with a view to increase. Littlehaven – Reviewing the peak services from London Victoria. There’s a gap around 8am from Norwood Junction to East Croydon – we’re looking at this. Early morning services we’re reviewing Early morning connections at Lewes for Seaford passengers. Early morning gap in service at Carshalton Beeches. Timings of the early morning services at Uckfield. Early trains from Redhill to London Bridge. We’ll do a final update early in the New Year.
 

Bishopstone

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Interesting that Clapham Junction calls on the Brighton GatEx are under consideration. I think that would be a popular move, if implemented.
 

Minstral25

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Interesting that Clapham Junction calls on the Brighton GatEx are under consideration. I think that would be a popular move, if implemented.

I am pretty sure GTR would add these calls at a drop of a hat and it looks like the 2018 timetable is set up to allow these calls in the future. However it is the political decision to allow it and remove the premium fares (because they would have to due to no separate gate lines at Clapham Junction) and I don't see the politicians or airport allowing that.
 

cle

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Really is the death of GatEx if they start calling at Clapham.

Of course, they should all just stop at both Clapham and East Croydon with a simplified pattern, and 4 more tph to spread demand around - and use 12 car units for all. The current situation, given franchise/ownership especially, is ridiculous.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Really is the death of GatEx if they start calling at Clapham.

Of course, they should all just stop at both Clapham and East Croydon with a simplified pattern, and 4 more tph to spread demand around - and use 12 car units for all. The current situation, given franchise/ownership especially, is ridiculous.
I'd agree that the current situation, with the 'Red Army' fleecing tourists to pay a premium fare is ridiculous, if not unlawful. Also, we already know that some non-GatEx services are already booked to take slightly less time than a supposedly 'direct' service... but a train stopping (in your suggestion) at two very busy intermediate stations couldn't really be described as a Gatwick Express, surely ?
 

Skimble19

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The third phase of the timetable consultation will begin on Wednesday 22nd November. This will cover weekend and late night services.

As a side note has it been mentioned anywhere on here that the 24tph has been pushed back until December 2019? Was confirmed earlier this week internally but haven’t spotted anything about it on here yet.

There will also allegedly be some off peak Thameslink services crossing over to the ECML from April.
 

jon0844

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The third phase of the timetable consultation will begin on Wednesday 22nd November. This will cover weekend and late night services.

Should be interesting to see if they're proposing decent capacity/frequency increases at weekends, given how busy trains can be - even with the fact that I am sure a lot of people have given up using trains at weekends (Saturdays now having more shortages of drivers than Sunday it seems, while Sunday has a very infrequent service) and so if they came back, there'd be an even more marked increase.

As a side note has it been mentioned anywhere on here that the 24tph has been pushed back until December 2019? Was confirmed earlier this week internally but haven’t spotted anything about it on here yet.

I assume that's because nobody is convinced they'll get 24 trains through the core between December 2018 and 2019?
 

Barn

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As a side note has it been mentioned anywhere on here that the 24tph has been pushed back until December 2019? Was confirmed earlier this week internally but haven’t spotted anything about it on here yet.

Do we know which services will be missed out until then?
 

Minstral25

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From the Stakeholders meeting this week, GTR stated it is intended to ramp up slowly to the 24 tph, which to me in a very sensible plan. Make sure each level works before the next level is undertaken.

So in May 18 it will be 18tph at the peak (perhaps 17tph due to separate issue for one of the selected pairs of services away from the core). In Dec 18 an additional pair will be routed through to make the peak 20 tph, Same again in May 19 to 22 tph and then again Dec 19 to the full 24tph.

In the meantime most of the pairs not running through will be terminated at Kings Cross/St Pancras from the North and Blackfriars from the South.

They did go through the list of pairs which would be delayed but I got a sense they didn't want to disclose that publically until all the local rail interests (and I'd assume staff, DfT, network rail etc) have been properly informed. So I won't put those details on here.
 

nw1

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Really is the death of GatEx if they start calling at Clapham.

Of course, they should all just stop at both Clapham and East Croydon with a simplified pattern, and 4 more tph to spread demand around - and use 12 car units for all. The current situation, given franchise/ownership especially, is ridiculous.

Absolutely, the premium service is just wasting paths on a very busy stretch of railway. As mentioned in another thread, what they really need is 4tph dedicated London-Clapham-Gatwick and return at normal fares (or even reduced to keep Gatwick passengers off the longer-distance services?) and bring back the dedicated Victoria-Brighton half-hourly fasts (calling CJ, East Croydon and one of them at Horley, as discussed in the previous thread). The combined Gatwick Express/Brighton thing they have at the moment seems extraordinarily hackish. The Gatwick Express concept was sound from the POV of a dedicated service to keep Gatwick and longer-distance passengers separate - the mistake was making it premium and not stopping it at Clapham.
 

JonathanH

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The problem with your idea is that the signalling system in place at Clapham Junction requires something to pass through non stop - ie headways are such that you can't stop all trains there. It might as well be Gatwick Express that passes through in this way.
 

nw1

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The problem with your idea is that the signalling system in place at Clapham Junction requires something to pass through non stop - ie headways are such that you can't stop all trains there. It might as well be Gatwick Express that passes through in this way.

Or could it be the four trains with the least demand from CJ? (at a guess the two East Grinsteads, the Reigate and the Tonbridge, though I have no figures to back this up; I'd imagine the important thing would be to keep the direct links from CJ to the large coastal Sussex towns).
 

greatkingrat

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The problem with your idea is that the signalling system in place at Clapham Junction requires something to pass through non stop - ie headways are such that you can't stop all trains there. It might as well be Gatwick Express that passes through in this way.

Is there a source for that? Surely capacity is optimised if all trains have the same stopping pattern.

Currently fast trains leave Victoria at
00*, 06, 09, 15*, 17, 20, 23, 30*, 36, 39, 45*, 47, 50, 53 (* is GX)

If the Gatwick Express trains left a minute or two earlier they should have time to stop at Clapham Jn and slot into their current path.
 

Failed Unit

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From the Stakeholders meeting this week, GTR stated it is intended to ramp up slowly to the 24 tph, which to me in a very sensible plan. Make sure each level works before the next level is undertaken.

So in May 18 it will be 18tph at the peak (perhaps 17tph due to separate issue for one of the selected pairs of services away from the core). In Dec 18 an additional pair will be routed through to make the peak 20 tph, Same again in May 19 to 22 tph and then again Dec 19 to the full 24tph.

In the meantime most of the pairs not running through will be terminated at Kings Cross/St Pancras from the North and Blackfriars from the South.

They did go through the list of pairs which would be delayed but I got a sense they didn't want to disclose that publically until all the local rail interests (and I'd assume staff, DfT, network rail etc) have been properly informed. So I won't put those details on here.

It will be a difficult choice. My money as an absolute certainty will be the peak only service to Welwyn Garden City as it won’t disrupt the regular pattern.

My money would be the Cambridge - Maidstone service but that would go down really badly here as we get the pain. (Less seats, slower service) and no benefit. (Unless we can keep the 365s until everything goes through the core). The 12 Car services are probably a safe bet to run through day 1.
 

JonathanH

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Is there a source for that? Surely capacity is optimised if all trains have the same stopping pattern.

Currently fast trains leave Victoria at
00*, 06, 09, 15*, 17, 20, 23, 30*, 36, 39, 45*, 47, 50, 53 (* is GX)

If the Gatwick Express trains left a minute or two earlier they should have time to stop at Clapham Jn and slot into their current path.

Discussed in some detail in this London Reconnections article from 2014 although since then 442s have been replaced by 387s.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-5-clapham-junction/
 

43074

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It will be a difficult choice. My money as an absolute certainty will be the peak only service to Welwyn Garden City as it won’t disrupt the regular pattern.

My money would be the Cambridge - Maidstone service but that would go down really badly here as we get the pain. (Less seats, slower service) and no benefit. (Unless we can keep the 365s until everything goes through the core). The 12 Car services are probably a safe bet to run through day 1.

There are strong rumours that it's 1 Bedford to Littlehampton and 1 Cambridge to Brighton which will account for the missing two between 18tph and 20tph between May and December... We'll find out soon enough though.
 

Minstral25

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It is not all finalised but the Cambridge to Brighton services are intended to start in May as they will be in the pattern already running south of London.

Don't forget the whole of Southern services are recast in May 2018 to fit the future Thameslink pattern, so it makes sense that all day services venturing onto Southern rails via East Croydon are fully up and running from day 1. Not necessary all Peak only services.
 

philjo

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There was a short article on the new thameslink timetable in the latest edition of Rail which arrived in the post yesterday. It says that the full core service will now start in December 2019.
It mentions that Cambridge to Brighton starts May 2018 but then also mentions an additional Cambridge-Brighton starting in December 2018 so presumably it will be 1tph in May. The article doesn't say if GN gets the additional semi-fast into Kings Cross in the meantime.
The Cambridge-Maidstone stopper services will be going into Kings cross until 2019. The Maidstone services will be starting from Blackfriars.
 
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