Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[A0]

Not in the down direction - 32 mins to Welwyn GC is typical in the current timetable (which incidentally compares rather disfavourably to 317s in the 1990s where the typical journey time was 25 minutes).

You said "Welwyn Garden City to London" not "London to Welwyn Garden City" - check NRES and you get 29 mins.

Here's the evidence:

 

[Ken H]

if I go for a day out, and want to use my phone for stuff, I have to keep an eye on the charge. Using satnav to find my way round an unfamiliar town saps the battery. Using internet for RailUKforum, or realtimetrains or whatever drains the battery. And making the odd call drains the battery. Taking pix drains the battery. And we dont all have up to the date phones with brand new batteries. So when I am out and about I look for charge in cafes, on buses or on trains, just so I can give my phone a boost. Sorry of this offends but its how I live. And yes, I do leave home with it 100% charged.
I even charged my phone between Horton in Ribblesdale to Ribblehead once, just to make sure it was full when I set off walking.

Edit. and things have moved on. Use of mobile devices has increased massively since these trains were specified. That power wasnt specified at construction time isnt that surprising. But to fulfil a role now, when the railway will be competing very hard for custom, I think a USB retrofit is necessary.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You said "Welwyn Garden City to London" not "London to Welwyn Garden City" - check NRES and you get 29 mins.

Here's the evidence:

View attachment 98564

Oh come on. May look good "on paper" but in practice, how may of these trains arrive KGX exactly on time? And the times you show are outside traditional peak times. Sorry, but your "evidence" is flawed

Also, bramling said: "to Welwyn G.C" which by my reckoning is "Down" if you're coming from London. Your times are the reverse, in the "Up" direction

Back on (slightly) on topic, I have just bought a new portable charger that will give me 11 hours additional time should my phone run out of battery

 

[bramling]

Oh come on. May look good "on paper" but in practice, how may of these trains arrive KGX exactly on time? And the times you show are outside traditional peak times. Sorry, but your "evidence" is flawed

Also, bramling said: "to Welwyn G.C" which by my reckoning is "Down" if you're coming from London. Your times are the reverse, in the "Up" direction

Back on (slightly) on topic, I have just bought a new portable charger that will give me 11 hours additional time should my phone run out of battery

Pedantry aside, it’s also worth remembering that pre-Covid there was also the 2tph Welwyn GC to KX Thameslink service, the one which is planned to become Welwyn to Sevenoaks. With a handful of additional stops the journey time on these trains was over 29 minutes.

 

[A0]

if I go for a day out, and want to use my phone for stuff, I have to keep an eye on the charge. Using satnav to find my way round an unfamiliar town saps the battery. Using internet for RailUKforum, or realtimetrains or whatever drains the battery. And making the odd call drains the battery. Taking pix drains the battery. And we dont all have up to the date phones with brand new batteries. So when I am out and about I look for charge in cafes, on buses or on trains, just so I can give my phone a boost. Sorry of this offends but its how I live. And yes, I do leave home with it 100% charged.
I even charged my phone between Horton in Ribblesdale to Ribblehead once, just to make sure it was full when I set off walking.

Edit. and things have moved on. Use of mobile devices has increased massively since these trains were specified. That power wasnt specified at construction time isnt that surprising. But to fulfil a role now, when the railway will be competing very hard for custom, I think a USB retrofit is necessary.

But the reality is the train journey is usually the first or last leg. For the 700s the vast majority of the users are commuters who will have had devices on charge overnight before leaving home and will have them on charge at their desk during the day. And the majority have sub-1 hour journeys.

Unless you're running a very old phone - there is usually 8 ish hours battery life on virtually all smart phones - if you're seeing less than that, then you've got a battery which is past its best. That you continue to use a device which is deteriorating is your decision - you don't *have* to buy a new phone, you could simply get a new battery fitted which will address that issue. And if, as you insinuate, your phone is so important to you on such days out, why chance it with a device which may not last the day ? Arguing that it's somehow the rail network's responsibility to bail you out is showing a lack of personal responsibility.

Pedantry aside, it’s also worth remembering that pre-Covid there was also the 2tph Welwyn GC to KX Thameslink service, the one which is planned to become Welwyn to Sevenoaks. With a handful of additional stops the journey time on these trains was over 29 minutes.

Not relevant - because they were scheduled as slower services, you could make the same point about using the stoppers from St Albans to St P, which all take over 30 mins. The point is there are faster services available.

In WGC's case there's long been a choice between the faster outer suburban services taking circa 30 mins with 3 stops and the inners taking nearer 50 mins with a dozen or so stops.

 

[AM9]

But the reality is the train journey is usually the first or last leg. For the 700s the vast majority of the users are commuters who will have had devices on charge overnight before leaving home and will have them on charge at their desk during the day. And the majority have sub-1 hour journeys.

Unless you're running a very old phone - there is usually 8 ish hours battery life on virtually all smart phones - if you're seeing less than that, then you've got a battery which is past its best. That you continue to use a device which is deteriorating is your decision - you don't *have* to buy a new phone, you could simply get a new battery fitted which will address that issue. And if, as you insinuate, your phone is so important to you on such days out, why chance it with a device which may not last the day ? Arguing that it's somehow the rail network's responsibility to bail you out is showing a lack of personal responsibility.

Agreed. Anybody that needs a smartphone because they need to surf social media sites, need to make calls (where the base staion is somewhat distant), need to take pictures/videoetc., needs to have a battery in their phone that lasts OR use a portable charger with a good battery. You have to 'cut your coat according to your cloth'.

Not relevant - because they were scheduled as slower services, you could make the same point about using the stoppers from St Albans to St P, which all take over 30 mins. The point is there are faster services available.

In WGC's case there's long been a choice between the faster outer suburban services taking circa 30 mins with 3 stops and the inners taking nearer 50 mins with a dozen or so stops.

This hair splitting is a pointless diversion. As @BaldRick says, the average journey time on TL services is under 30 minutes. For those that don't understand what average means, it is the total travel time of all passengers divided by the number of passengers. Therefore there will be a (very) few wierdos that do Bedford to Brighton, over 2hrs. (I know, I did it myself once when the 700s were introduced). There will be more who do journeys of over 1 hour, but there will be a lot who's journey doesn't exceed 20 minutes, (e.g. St Pancras to St Albans, or London Bridge to East Croydon), plus lots on the metro services and even a few just within the core. The St Albans-Sutton loop services leave with about 40-60% seat unoccupied in the peak, that's absolutely necessary to make room for those who board at Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon and Cricklewood, because the slows are full by the time they get to the core.
That's how the average is below 30 minutes.

 

[Mikey C]

Agreed. Anybody that needs a smartphone because they need to surf social media sites, need to make calls (where the base staion is somewhat distant), need to take pictures/videoetc., needs to have a battery in their phone that lasts OR use a portable charger with a good battery. You have to 'cut your coat according to your cloth'.

Lots of people don't NEED to take the train either, as they can drive instead. But having extra facilities on board might encourage them to take the train.

 

[bramling]

But the reality is the train journey is usually the first or last leg. For the 700s the vast majority of the users are commuters who will have had devices on charge overnight before leaving home and will have them on charge at their desk during the day. And the majority have sub-1 hour journeys.

Unless you're running a very old phone - there is usually 8 ish hours battery life on virtually all smart phones - if you're seeing less than that, then you've got a battery which is past its best. That you continue to use a device which is deteriorating is your decision - you don't *have* to buy a new phone, you could simply get a new battery fitted which will address that issue. And if, as you insinuate, your phone is so important to you on such days out, why chance it with a device which may not last the day ? Arguing that it's somehow the rail network's responsibility to bail you out is showing a lack of personal responsibility.



Not relevant - because they were scheduled as slower services, you could make the same point about using the stoppers from St Albans to St P, which all take over 30 mins. The point is there are faster services available.

In WGC's case there's long been a choice between the faster outer suburban services taking circa 30 mins with 3 stops and the inners taking nearer 50 mins with a dozen or so stops.

It’s very relevant, as if you’re a Welwyn commuter there’s a significant chance one might end up on the slower service - either because that’s the next available service (remember nothing overtakes on this route now), or it might be a deliberate decision to get pick of the seats at Welwyn.

However, even if we discount these peak services, 29 mins up and 32 minutes down averages out to 30.5 minutes. It will increase further if the 2Yxx Thameslink services are included.

Meanwhile this still leaves a long list of stations as far out as Huntingdon and Foxton where Thameslink is the primary London service.

 

[A0]

Lots of people don't NEED to take the train either, as they can drive instead. But having extra facilities on board might encourage them to take the train.

If you think the presence or absence of a USB charging point is going to sway somebody between driving and taking the train, then I think you are, at best, deluded.

 

[158747]

I never rely on being able to charge my phone on the train, it’s nice when available but sometimes the trains don’t have USB chargers or even if they do they don’t always work. So instead I always carry a back up power pack with me to keep my phone changed during the day.

 

[Robertj21a]

I never rely on being able to charge my phone on the train, it’s nice when available but sometimes the trains don’t have USB chargers or even if they do they don’t always work. So instead I always carry a back up power pack with me to keep my phone changed during the day.

......as I would expect most people do if they rely heavily on their phone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

......as I would expect most people do if they rely heavily on their phone.

If you're carrying any sort of bag, a small battery pack doesn't take up an awful lot more space than a cable alone.

I suspect the number of people with a USB cable in their bag but not a power bank is very low. If cables were provided it'd be rather different. I suppose the odd person might go without a bag and just carry a USB cable in their pocket or wallet but I doubt it's many.

The benefit it provides, to me, is the convenience of not having to top up your power bank that day. Handy but not essential

Even laptops these days have many hours of battery life.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If you think the presence or absence of a USB charging point is going to sway somebody between driving and taking the train, then I think you are, at best, deluded.

I'd imagine lots of new(ish) cars have USB chargers inside for the convenience of driver and passengers

 

[Fincra5]

......as I would expect most people do if they rely heavily on their phone.

But not everyone is a prepared as you Stuff Happens. More likely to run into someone with their charger, than a battery bank!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But not everyone is a prepared as you Stuff Happens. More likely to run into someone with their charger, than a battery bank!

You reckon more people are carrying plug in chargers than power banks? I very much doubt it. Power banks fit your pocket in a way a 13A plug doesn't.

Some might have just a USB cable but I doubt many.

I'd imagine lots of new(ish) cars have USB chargers inside for the convenience of driver and passengers

Pretty much all cars can add one, there are lighter socket shaped ones for not very much on Amazon.

 

[A0]

I'd imagine lots of new(ish) cars have USB chargers inside for the convenience of driver and passengers

Maybe so - but it's unlikely to sway the decision on how somebody will travel.

 

[75A]

I'd imagine lots of new(ish) cars have USB chargers inside for the convenience of driver and passengers

Mines got 3 but it certainly had nothing to do with why I bought it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe so - but it's unlikely to sway the decision on how somebody will travel.

Agreed. Power banks are so cheap that the answer to any mobile phone low battery issue is just "get a power bank".

Laptops are different, but with its large number of airline seats at a very tight pitch and no tables 700 Standard isn't suitable for laptop use anyway.

 

[AM9]

But not everyone is a prepared as you Stuff Happens. More likely to run into someone with their charger, than a battery bank!

Stuff happens a lot more to those who aren't prepared - and then they blame somebody/thing else, in this case, the railway for not covering their inability to chare their own phone.

Maybe so - but it's unlikely to sway the decision on how somebody will travel.

If the car didn't have a purpose made charging USB port, that same type of traveller would probably bad mouth the car manufacturer.

 

[bramling]

Stuff happens a lot more to those who aren't prepared - and then they blame somebody/thing else, in this case, the railway for not covering their inability to chare their own phone.

If the car didn't have a purpose made charging USB port, that same type of traveller would probably bad mouth the car manufacturer.

Where do you draw the line where expressing displeasure that a feature which could have been provided and wasn’t, becomes blaming and bad-mouthing?

Passengers will have no doubt managed quite happily for a quarter of a century using 317s, 319s, 365s or 377s, without such features - indeed for some of that time mobile phones weren’t a thing. Then along comes the 700, which doesn’t really offer much of a leap forward on anything - on the contrary if one was used to 365s or 377s then it’s essentially a step back to 317 or 319 levels of comfort. Here was an opportunity to provide something *useful*, not essential, and that opportunity was missed, and to retrofit it will not cost a lot more than if it went in from new.

I don’t really get why there’s such a resistance to accepting that this was a mess-up, instead trying to find ways to justify why people shouldn’t need such features, when no one has claimed they’re *needed*, but certainly that they’d be *beneficial*. What else does the 700 now offer, since it’s doubtful the crush capacity is going to be needed any time soon?

Out of interest, when using declassified first, have you ever made use of the plug sockets? A simple yes or no will suffice just fine...

Life changes. A decade or so ago when going on holiday I used to print off a whole load of stuff to know where all the local amenities would be. Likewise if wanting to change hotel bookings it would have been a job having to do it by phone, and having to know what number to ring and the like. As well as all of this now do-able at the click of a phone button, I can also monitor my house on my phone by way of cameras. None of this is *essential*, but it makes life easier, and is worth having. Same with power sockets on trains.

 

[A0]

Agreed. Power banks are so cheap that the answer to any mobile phone low battery issue is just "get a power bank".

Laptops are different, but with its large number of airline seats at a very tight pitch and no tables 700 Standard isn't suitable for laptop use anyway.

But since you can't use either laptops or mobiles (except for hands free voice calls) when driving, the fact there may be power in car doesn't really offer an advantage.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Out of interest, when using declassified first, have you ever made use of the plug sockets? A simple yes or no will suffice just fine...

Yes I did (when I regularly travelled on them)

But then I did not have a portable charger as I knew I could charge on the train

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t really get why there’s such a resistance to accepting that this was a mess-up

It wasn’t a mess up, because at the time the train was specified (2008/9), the need for 3 pin power in Standard Class wasn’t seen as a requirement. USB charging was barely a ‘thing’ back then - I didn’t see it anywhere until 2016.

I agree that if the train was specified now, or even 5 years ago, it would be very likely to have charge points.

Out of interest, when using declassified first, have you ever made use of the plug sockets? A simple yes or no will suffice just fine...

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but no, I haven’t, and indeed didn’t even know where the sockets were until a few weeks ago (when I asked on here!) But then if I think I’m going to need charge because of a lot of phone use, I carry a portable charger. “Be Prepared” as Akela taught me all those years ago.

Life changes. A decade or so ago ...

Indeed it does. A decade or so ago trains weren’t specified with charging points everywhere...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As i was regular commuter on 700's i wrote to my MP to ask when we were going to receive wifi on all class 700's. He provided me a response from the Dept of Transport who said it was very difficult to take the units out of traffic to do the work because they were intensively used. That was a couple of years ago and they aren't as intensively used as they were with the reduced timetables so an ideal time to do it. Also Southern retrofitted wifi to all the 377's by planning it in with mtce which is far less intrusive work than running all the cabling for sockets.

I will have to send him a follow up mail to ask why they haven't got on with at least getting wi-fi sorted.

As an aside the 700's are excellent people movers yes the seats could be comfier but the biggest mistake was not have an armrests between seats which undermines the whole point of the train to have a free moving aisle as people on the aisle seats sit at an angle and partially obstruct the aisle.

 

[Sussex Ben]

It wasn’t a mess up, because at the time the train was specified (2008/9), the need for 3 pin power in Standard Class wasn’t seen as a requirement.

Out of interest, when did sockets on trains become part of the standard ‘kit’ fitted to trains? I assume the Southern 377/6’s and /7’s were designed at a similar time, and sockets were fitted despite broadly being designed for use in the metro area.

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest, when did sockets on trains become part of the standard ‘kit’ fitted to trains? I assume the Southern 377/6’s and /7’s were designed at a similar time, and sockets were fitted despite broadly being designed for use in the metro area.

Difficult to say, as there is no hard and fast answer. But about then. IIRC the 377/6/7s were the first, and they were specified about 2-3 years after the 700s, (albeit delivered earlier, as a run on order of an existing design).

 

[Ken H]

But since you can't use either laptops or mobiles (except for hands free voice calls) when driving, the fact there may be power in car doesn't really offer an advantage.

keeps the kids quiet.

 

[driverd]

I must say, I thoroughly struggle to see how anyone can find a 700 anything other than, in almost all respects, the worst (new build) EMU to have graced the network in the last 15+ years, in terms of customer environment. The interior spec is spartan at best and has all the ambiance of a hospital waiting room (seats of similar comfort). The ride is poor, the omissions glaring.

The lack of USB/WiFi provisions is, frankly, appalling (for a unit introduced 2015-2019). For a unit designed to serve the capital and in some cases be the grand "welcome to Britain" for travellers arriving at Londons secondary/tertiary airports, its ridiculous that they fail to provide facilities you routinely find on buses. Customers, rightly, shouldn't and dont care what the reasons for this may be, they simply notice the poor provisions on board.

If you think the presence or absence of a USB charging point is going to sway somebody between driving and taking the train, then I think you are, at best, deluded.

Then call me deluded. I have family who live near Gatwick. The lack of provisions on these units (admittedly above and beyond, but inclusive of the USB chargers), is one of the reasons I'll now drive a good 200 miles, rather than simply take the train (and as rail staff, the bulk of my journey is free or discounted). I can't imagine how I would feel having to pay full price for the service and generally wouldn't, other than through lack of viable alternative.

But since you can't use either laptops or mobiles (except for hands free voice calls) when driving, the fact there may be power in car doesn't really offer an advantage.

What about passengers in the vehicle? What about connecting music to the audio system? What about when you simply forget to charge your phone and it would be a lifeline to do so?

What I do think is naive is the belief that every single user of the 700s is on a sub-30 minute commute and is making a journey roughly akin to a ride on the tube. Its nonsense. Gatwick to London is roughly an hour. Brighton to London pushing 1 hour 30. These aren't short commutes, far from it. Infact, the average journey on a Voyager, certainly, won't be far off these timings.

The media has been full of numerous complaints from customers of these units. It simply cannot be denied that the interior only really caters to a proportion of the market they, in reality, serve. As a leisure user of these trains, I actively avoid them. Luckily on the bulk of routes where I use them there is usually a viable alternative service from southern, so thankfully I rarely have to endure them. This isn't something I can say for any other train and this isn't an enthusiastic angle on my "prefered" unit - its about the shameful lack of facilities, uncomfortable and spartan interior that is so exposed in nearly every seat I can't help but feel a little bit vulnerable.

We're now actively trying to encourage people back to the railways, I can't help but feel these units do precisely the opposite.

 

[mmh]

But since you can't use either laptops or mobiles (except for hands free voice calls) when driving, the fact there may be power in car doesn't really offer an advantage.

Cars do have passengers as well as drivers. Much the same as trains, really.

 

[Bald Rick]

What I do think is naive is the belief that every single user of the 700s is on a sub-30 minute commute

No one has said, or believes that.

Gatwick to London is roughly an hour.

Realtime Trains - 9S56 1912 Brighton to Cambridge

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

29 minutes....

Its nonsense.

... You said it!