The damage done by overzealous revenue protection activities

[najaB]

Of course not. Nor are there figures on the number of incorrectly issued / successfully appealed charges. Transparency does not appear to be a feature of this scheme.

I didn't expect that there were - it is just that some are assuming that Northern is making significant revenue through this scheme. There's reasoning behind it, but it is an assumption none the less. It is possible that the scheme is overall revenue-neutral (or close to it) as we have no way of knowing how much revenue is being lost to fare evasion.

 

[neilmc]

To answer the original question, it doesn't affect me as much as it might as I don't live in close proximity to a railway station and the trains I do catch are always from Manchester/Stockport. But for journeys other than from city centres:

If I catch the bus, I either have a pass or pay the driver. No problem.
If I catch the tram, yes I do have to buy a ticket prior to boarding but each Metrolink station has plenty of machines and the maximum wait for a missed tram through time spent in ticket piurchase should be 12 minutes. Again no problem.
If I catch a train at a suburban station there may well not be a ticket machine, it may well not be working, the guard may or may not come around selling tickets and if I arrive at Piccadilly/Victoria/Stockport I may be subject to the infamous Northern sting. Based on the cases I read here it would make me very nervous about ever catching local trains from suburban stations, but as the trains are busy and the sting/scam seems both lucrative and unchallengeable I doubt whether Northern would care one iota if I use the bus, tram or car instead.

 

[radamfi]

If I catch a train at a suburban station there may well not be a ticket machine, it may well not be working, the guard may or may not come around selling tickets and if I arrive at Piccadilly/Victoria/Stockport I may be subject to the infamous Northern sting. Based on the cases I read here it would make me very nervous about ever catching local trains from suburban stations, but as the trains are busy and the sting/scam seems both lucrative and unchallengeable I doubt whether Northern would care one iota if I use the bus, tram or car instead.

Same here. I wouldn't think about getting on a local train around Manchester unless I had picked up a ticket the day before or earlier.

 

[Simon11]

A few people that I know personally have been affected by this and I would assure that they were telling the truth. But I also agree that far more are given out correctly but still when there isn't a proper, independent, appeal system I think it's a worry.

But most TOC's appeal systems are independent, except TOC's like South eastern. Details can be found at https://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares.shtml.

I would also add that a TOC would rather everyone paid their fares, rather than having to invest in revenue protection. The cost of issuing a penalty fare is easily outweighed by any income it brings.

 

[455driver]

It is about time people took some responsibility for their actions.

PMSL at the thought of some people doing that!

I do agree with the sentiment but cant see it happening any time soon.

 

[swt_passenger]

But most TOC's appeal systems are independent, except TOC's like South eastern. Details can be found at https://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares.shtml.

I would also add that a TOC would rather everyone paid their fares, rather than having to invest in revenue protection. The cost of issuing a penalty fare is easily outweighed by any income it brings.

They should have introduced them at £20 and then index linked them since, like any other fare.

When the Labour DfT were consulting on raising them before the 2010 election the rise was intended to have been massive, to either £80/£40 like TfL or even to £100/£50.

Said consultation was never finished.

 

[Hadders]

A penalty fare is £20 or twice the Anytime Single to the next station stop, whichever is the greater.

In many cases twice the Anytime Single will be a significant figure.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Look at the queues at the Excess Fares window at Leeds in a morning if you don't believe just what a farce Northern's retailing is.

I've always thought that the comedic length of that queue, of the one at Bristol Temple Meads, at Manchester Victoria (pre-gates - I've not been lately) and a handful of others do far more damage for people's opinions of the railways than do Northern's penalty fake scheme. Imagine the number of rural ticket machines that would spring up were Northern and FGW banned from having queues to buy a ticket and leave the destination station greater than 10 minutes...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But most TOC's appeal systems are independent, except TOC's like South eastern. Details can be found at https://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares.shtml.

As Northern's scheme is not a Penalty Fare scheme it does not come under that semi-independent (managed by Go Ahead Group if I recall) appeals process. The only way to "appeal" is to refuse the £80 and go to Court with the risk of huge costs if you lose.
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A penalty fare is £20 or twice the Anytime Single to the next station stop, whichever is the greater.

In many cases twice the Anytime Single will be a significant figure.

And determined by the rather arbitrary situation of where the train happens to stop next. Which is why I'm more in favour of a much higher fixed sum plus the fare that would have been charged if purchased before boarding. ISTR that's how the Swiss do it.

 

[34D]

The linked thread is NOT a case of over-zealousness from the TOC.

Quite simple; if there is an opportunity to buy a ticket then it MUST be used. If they don't then the passenger has to bear the responsibility of their failure. The passenger running late is not the TOC's fault.
It is about time people took some responsibility for their actions.

No. People are customers. They deserve to be treated much better than this.

 

[najaB]

No. People are customers. They deserve to be treated much better than this.

The fact is, the 'customer' in the thread that started this discussion had the means and opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding and chose not to because his time was more important. End of.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fact is, the 'customer' in the thread that started this discussion had the means and opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding and chose not to because his time was more important. End of.

Legally, definitely.

Ethically? It's a bit more complicated than that. Regardless of the motivation behind the scheme, it is a bit much to pull someone out of a queue to buy a ticket, accuse them of fare evasion, and then fake-fine them £80.

Doing it against people who are short-faring, or doing it against people who've happily walked past the Excess Fares window and are leaving the station, is one thing. I wouldn't fake-fine them, I'd prosecute them. But pulling people out of a queue to fine them £80? That stinks IMHO, regardless of what the rules say, because- for one thing- the fake-fine would likely have been the same £80 if the passenger had been deliberately deceitful. The ironic thing is he probably wouldn't have been given the £80 fake-fine if he'd been deceitful and tried to leave the station by tailgating or such like; Leeds barrier staff, bless them, aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Horsforth, by the way, only has one ticket window, and that is a fairly recent addition; it never used to have ticketing facilities at all.

ETA: What happened to Northern's promises that they wouldn't fake-fine people £80 on the first offence, unless there was clear intent to defraud? I guess that went the same way as all the rest of Serco's promises to behave ethically.

 

[Steveoh]

The fact is, the 'customer' in the thread that started this discussion had the means and opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding and chose not to because his time was more important. End of.

Is it really as simple as that? What is the purpose of the railway, is it there for the passengers are or the other way around? I would suggest in this case the train is a tool to get the customer to work on time. If I look up train times on NRE it doesn't tell me that if I need to purchase a ticket then I have to arrive at the station with sufficient time to buy one and what that time limit is. Maybe it should. If I'm a regular commuter should I really have to set off from home every single day allowing sufficient time to be delayed by traffic and the time taken to purchase a ticket. Effectively contingency for a contingency because this is what suits the railway.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If I'm a regular commuter should I really have to set off from home every single day allowing sufficient time to be delayed by traffic and the time taken to purchase a ticket.

As well as usually being cheaper, holding a season ticket avoids all that. It always puzzles me, as to why those who travel regularly and are stopped the one day they don't have a ticket, hadn't decided all the queuing and looking for Guards was a waste of time and avoid it with a season.

 

[crehld]

As well as usually being cheaper, holding a season ticket avoids all that. It always puzzles me, as to why those who travel regularly and are stopped the one day they don't have a ticket, hadn't decided all the queuing and looking for Guards was a waste of time and avoid it with a season.

The season ticket argument gets mobilised a lot but I remain unconvinced by it. Seasons are great if you make at least five return journeys a week. A lot of those commuting, however, do not. Some work part time. Some work from home many days of the week. Some have job roles that require travel and so do not go to the office regularly. Some do not travel during peak hours (particularly if childcare is an issue).

It is entirely plausible, therefore, that many people forgo the season ticket and opt for purchasing day returns, which can often be cheaper depending on circumstances. In the oft cited Horsforth-Leeds example on this thread you would be mad to purchase a season ticket unless you made at least five return journeys a week.

Indeed, it always puzzles me why those who travel regularly would actively fork out more for a season ticket, when purchasing day returns would make much more sense financially.

 

[najaB]

If I'm a regular commuter should I really have to set off from home every single day allowing sufficient time to be delayed by traffic and the time taken to purchase a ticket. Effectively contingency for a contingency because this is what suits the railway.

No. Tickets can be bought up to a year in advance at a station or three months advance online. Season tickets also exist.

I have sympathy for passengers who genuinely have no opportunity to obtain their ticket - for example they're making a one-off journey from an unstaffed station. But a commuter who walks past an open ticket office hasn't got a leg to stand on if they get pulled up for not having a ticket.

 

[Envy123]

When I'll eventually move outside of London, I am immediately buying an annual and calling it done.

I like the convenience of arriving 5 minutes before the train arrives and quickly topping up my Oyster, but keyGo is quite limited at this moment and I don't want to faff about with paper tickets.

 

[crehld]

No. Tickets can be bought up to a year in advance at a station or three months advance online. Season tickets also exist.

I've already outlined why the season ticket argument is fundamentally flawed. In terms of buying in advance. What if I'm a coffee shop barrista on a zero hours contract who doesn't know I'm working one day to the next? Purchasing in advance is not an option.

I'm all for queuing to buy a ticket, but how long should I expect to queue for? According to ORR data, Horsforth station served almost a million people in the financial year 2012-13, most I imagine during the peak. Is one rudimentary ticket window enough to serve all of these customers? Is it acceptable that I should wait for up to, say, 15 minutes or more?

Let us also pre-empt the inevitable TVM argument. Don't forget of course that they rarely sell an adequate range of tickets. We might consider a station such as Steeton and Silsden. This serves almost 800,000 passengers a year. There is one TVM which located on one of the platforms (with no easy access footbridge between the two platforms). The queue to use the TVM in the mornings is massive. Again, how long would one be expected to reasonably wait? When you eventually get to the front you find the TVM either cannot take your cash I(as it is card only) or it cannot sell the ticket you wish to purchase, having only been programmed to sell a limited range.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for passengers taking responsibility and paying their way. But it only seems fair that if you want to enforce this you need to put in place the necessary facilities. A lack of adequate facilities to purchase tickets is not the passengers responsibility in anyway shape or form, and it is up to the TOC to make the necessary investment. Part of the issue here is that TOCs are not willing to take responsibility for the provision of these facilities.
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ETA: What happened to Northern's promises that they wouldn't fake-fine people £80 on the first offence, unless there was clear intent to defraud?

Given they are issued to people who've committed no offence and with no evidence of intent to defraud, I would say that promise is worthless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've already outlined why the season ticket argument is fundamentally flawed. In terms of buying in advance. What if I'm a coffee shop barrista on a zero hours contract who doesn't know I'm working one day to the next? Purchasing in advance is not an option.

In most cases, you'll have a good idea if you are going to be working on average more than 3 days a week or not, peoples' work patterns are not totally random. If you are, a monthly is likely to pay dividends not only for convenience.

I'm all for queuing to buy a ticket, but how long should I expect to queue for? According to ORR data, Horsforth station served almost a million people in the financial year 2012-13, most I imagine during the peak. Is one rudimentary ticket window enough to serve all of these customers? Is it acceptable that I should wait for up to, say, 15 minutes or more?

No, I don't think it is; sufficient TVMs should be provided in addition that the queue can be kept down. The window for complex stuff, the TVM for easy stuff. Works well throughout the South East, and I see no reason whatsoever Northern shouldn't do the same.

Let us also pre-empt the inevitable TVM argument. Don't forget of course that they rarely sell an adequate range of tickets.

Eh? The ones on London Midland stations sell all single/return walk-up tickets from that station except GroupSave. The latter could do with being added, but I don't see anything else significant missing. Rovers and Rangers (other than PTE ones) are such a niche use-case that I don't see why it shouldn't be necessary to make extra time to obtain them or obtain them in advance. But they could also be added if desired!

We might consider a station such as Steeton and Silsden. This serves almost 800,000 passengers a year. There is one TVM which located on one of the platforms (with no easy access footbridge between the two platforms). The queue to use the TVM in the mornings is massive. Again, how long would one be expected to reasonably wait? When you eventually get to the front you find the TVM either cannot take your cash I(as it is card only) or it cannot sell the ticket you wish to purchase, having only been programmed to sell a limited range.

The card-only thing *is* a difficulty. I wonder how long it will be before we can assume that cash need no longer be taken, and a card of some kind (pre-pay, if required) is mandatory? I reckon less than 10 years.

However, *most* people have a credit or debit card in some form. So that you must use one to buy a ticket at the TVM if you have one might be a good start - on-board payments or payment at destination would be cash only, hand over a card and that'll be court for you, mate And made clear on notices at stations (it's the lack of this that I find most galling).

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for passengers taking responsibility and paying their way. But it only seems fair that if you want to enforce this you need to put in place the necessary facilities

Agreed.
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Or to look at it differently, what is to me obvious is that the rules must be simple and absolutely clear, and well publicised. They also need to be consistent from TOC to TOC, and route to route unless it is made exceptionally clear that a given route is different, e.g. labelled Paytrain.

It needs to be as clear as it is in Germany or Switzerland - the phrase "entry only with valid ticket" or the PF symbol by *every* train door where on-board purchase is not acceptable, and at *every* point where to pass it without a valid ticket may result in prosecution. No exceptions. And we could make the TOCs behave over this by applying similar rules to parking contravention, whereby if the required signage is missing the TOC has no case.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As well as usually being cheaper, holding a season ticket avoids all that.

If you have regular hours and commute every single day on trains in the peak time, then a season ticket is usually cheaper (though there are anomalies where it isn't). Although if you take a day off work, for whatever reason, then that saving is wiped out.

But where you work irregular hours, or you don't work every day, then buying daily tickets can be cheaper.

When I'll eventually move outside of London, I am immediately buying an annual and calling it done.

Unless your journey allows you to get a Gold Card, then there isn't much benefit in getting an annual.
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Eh? The ones on London Midland stations sell all single/return walk-up tickets from that station except GroupSave.

The TVMs at London Euston and London St Pancras don't have an option for "Gold Card discount". TVMs are great for short local journeys where your option is a single or a return; for anything more complex than that then they're not.

As an aside, good luck getting a London Midland TVM to sell you a ticket to a boundary zone or to London U1.

My issue with the case that started this thread is that the guy was pulled out of the queue to buy a ticket. If that's not penalising honesty and encouraging tailgating, I don't know what is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless your journey allows you to get a Gold Card, then there isn't much benefit in getting an annual.

Er, 10 months for the price of 12.
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IThe TVMs at London Euston and London St Pancras don't have an option for "Gold Card discount".

Do they not? That needs fixing.

Or here's another idea - harmonise the Railcard discounts/minimum fares and just have a "Railcard/GroupSave" option. The Swiss manage to have just two options - 100% and 50%. We'd just need 100%, 66% and 50%.

As an aside, good luck getting a London Midland TVM to sell you a ticket to a boundary zone or to London U1.

I don't know about U1 as I've not had cause to buy one - the only use-case for that appears to be a period return, as an Anytime Day Travelcard seems the same price.

Good luck getting a ticket office to sell you a ticket to a boundary zone; they do not exist.

EDIT: It seems they do and I was misinformed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My issue with the case that started this thread is that the guy was pulled out of the queue to buy a ticket. If that's not penalising honesty and encouraging tailgating, I don't know what is.

It's certainly inconsistent, and the big problem to me is inconsistency. Either it's OK or it isn't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Er, 10 months for the price of 12.

You save (theoretically) 12 weeks. Most people will have at least five weeks of annual leave per year, most will have over six weeks when you add in bank holidays, which wipes out half the "saving" immediately.

Add in sick days, weekends when you don't travel, days when the TOC stick on a chaotic and shambolic replacement bus service that doesn't take you where you're going (hi London Midland, I'm looking at you), etc, and the savings really are negligble compared to buying odd-period monthlies. And that's before you consider the cost of changing an annual ticket if your life circumstances change.

Add in the cost of sourcing the money upfront in a lump sum and I don't see why anyone outside the Gold Card area would buy an annual, unless they get a works loan (and even then I'd be wary).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know about U1 as I've not had cause to buy one - the only use-case for that appears to be a period return, as an Anytime Day Travelcard seems the same price.

Not if you're buying a single it isn't.

Good luck getting a ticket office to sell you a ticket to a boundary zone; they do not exist.

They do.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HML&dest=0072

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not if you're buying a single it isn't.

Fair point.

They do.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HML&dest=0072

Is that a recent change, just a LM thing, or is it a fare incorrectly not marked as unidirectional? I have never been sold one when I have requested one in the past at a ticket office - I've always been told Boundary Zones are only an origin.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect you've been told incorrectly. I've been able to buy singles to Boundary Zone 3 before from Aylesbury, in conjunction with my annual Travelcard, as I was travelling out and back on different days.

 

[Wolfie]

The TVMs at London Euston and London St Pancras don't have an option for "Gold Card discount". TVMs are great for short local journeys where your option is a single or a return; for anything more complex than that then they're not.

I don't know about the VTWC TVMs at Euston but the LM ones certainly do have the "Gold card discount" option.

My issue with the case that started this thread is that the guy was pulled out of the queue to buy a ticket. If that's not penalising honesty and encouraging tailgating, I don't know what is.

Agreed.

You save (theoretically) 12 weeks. Most people will have at least five weeks of annual leave per year, most will have over six weeks when you add in bank holidays, which wipes out half the "saving" immediately.

Add in sick days, weekends when you don't travel, days when the TOC stick on a chaotic and shambolic replacement bus service that doesn't take you where you're going (hi London Midland, I'm looking at you), etc, and the savings really are negligble compared to buying odd-period monthlies. And that's before you consider the cost of changing an annual ticket if your life circumstances change.

Add in the cost of sourcing the money upfront in a lump sum and I don't see why anyone outside the Gold Card area would buy an annual, unless they get a works loan (and even then I'd be wary).

This all, of course, makes the rather large assumption that you do not use your ticket for anything other than travel to/from work. That may be the case if you live in a rural location but is far less likely if you are suburban or city-based....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect you've been told incorrectly. I've been able to buy singles to Boundary Zone 3 before from Aylesbury, in conjunction with my annual Travelcard, as I was travelling out and back on different days.

So it would seem. Irritating, as in the cases I've done it I've had to take stopping trains because a non-BZ ticket isn't valid for a split if the Travelcard isn't a season.

Anyway, back on topic...

 

[najaB]

I've already outlined why the season ticket argument is fundamentally flawed. In terms of buying in advance. What if I'm a coffee shop barrista on a zero hours contract who doesn't know I'm working one day to the next? Purchasing in advance is not an option.

I agree that they aren't suitable for everyone, but no system will be. Most commuters have fairly regular travel patterns, and season tickets and/or advance purchase work for most commuters. The problem is finding a better system that doesn't open up loopholes for those who are determined to cheat the system.

I'm all for queuing to buy a ticket, but how long should I expect to queue for? ... Is it acceptable that I should wait for up to, say, 15 minutes or more?

No, it isn't. But if the costs of employing more ticketing staff or installing more TVM are higher than the additional revenue that will be generated it just doesn't make business sense to do anything about it (the only thing I can think of is to issue PTT's and allow payment at the other end.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for passengers taking responsibility and paying their way. But it only seems fair that if you want to enforce this you need to put in place the necessary facilities. A lack of adequate facilities to purchase tickets is not the passengers responsibility in anyway shape or form, and it is up to the TOC to make the necessary investment. Part of the issue here is that TOCs are not willing to take responsibility for the provision of these facilities.

I think that *some* TOCs fall into that category, but not all of them do. A lot of it has to do with the franchise specification - if they are required to make the investment then they will. Look at Scotrail's investment in smart ticketing or TfL rail's commitment to staffing stations.

 

[anme]

The railways have extensive powers to prosecute passengers who don't have a ticket - more extensive than other transport providers. However they should remember that these powers can be taken away by policitians, and they should use them wisely and not bring these powers into disrepute.

Whatever the legal situation, I would suggest that fining (*) someone who is queuing up to buy a ticket with not having a ticket is a good way to bring these powers into disrepute.

(*) yes I know.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This all, of course, makes the rather large assumption that you do not use your ticket for anything other than travel to/from work.

If you use your ticket during the week and at weekends, and you use your ticket whilst you're on annual leave from work, then an annual starts to make a saving. I'd agree with that; a season ticket for me on the outskirts of London was a no-brainer. I also had a season when I commuted from Newcastle to Durham, as I worked five days a week and travelled in peak time.

My point was more that a) annual tickets are not always much cheaper than buying odd-period monthlies (i.e. 1m3d, etc) and b) season tickets are not always the best option for people with erratic travel patterns, or who mostly travel off-peak.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A proper, DfT authorised, penalty fare scheme requires every station to have any combination of a ticket office / TVM / Permit to Travel machine. Plus visible signage that the passenger / customer must walk past before boarding the their train.

Without these requirements a penalty fares scheme cannot be agreed and PF's cannot be issued where the usual facility is unavailable.

Northern choose not to invest in the necessary pre-requisites for a proper penalty fare scheme and have been allowed (encouraged?) by DfT to go down their alternative route. It's easy to see why - it's cheaper and easier to operate.

Maximum waiting times (for peak and off-peak) for stations are agreed through the TSA agreement. Operators should meet those times or forego any right to prosecute or issue Penalty Fare / Failure to Pay.