Threatened and sworn at over reserved seat.

[Chapeltom]

Hi all

I wonder if anyone could advise me on the subject of reserved seats. I boarded the 1847 to Manchester Piccadilly at Preston. I sat in a seat with no reservation coupon and was subsequently sworn at by an angry man 3 times my age tell me it was his. This in front of his family. I reluctantly moved.

A) should I have moved
B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

He never showed me his official coupon showing reservation and accused me of moving the reservations in the back of the seats.

His behaviour actually scared me, him at 15 stone and 6ft 3. Me at 10 stone, 6ft!

Tom

 

[WestCoast]

Seats that are reserved without coupons do appear from time to time, sometimes the printer fails at the origin or the train is late arriving and there is no time to put the coupons on the seats e.t.c.

A) should I have moved
B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

When did he swear and threaten you? Did he just come up to you and give you abuse or did you refuse initially?

If there was other seats I'd have just moved to save a fuss but it depends really..

 

[Mike395]

I wouldve politely asked to see his reservation coupon, and if he couldnt show it to me, I'd stay put, otherwise I'd move :P (which begs the question - if tickets arent put out, does that render the seat reservation invalid?)

 

[Ivo]

I wouldve politely asked to see his reservation coupon, and if he couldnt show it to me, I'd stay put, otherwise I'd move :P (which begs the question - if tickets arent put out, does that render the seat reservation invalid?)

If my experiences with XC are anything to go by, yes. The same would apply with the electronic versions found on 22x and 390 stock (I have had similar experiences with on-board computer system failures on Voyagers).

 

[strange6]

Hi all

I wonder if anyone could advise me on the subject of reserved seats. I boarded the 1847 to Manchester Piccadilly at Preston. I sat in a seat with no reservation coupon and was subsequently sworn at by an angry man 3 times my age tell me it was his. This in front of his family. I reluctantly moved.

A) should I have moved
B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

He never showed me his official coupon showing reservation and accused me of moving the reservations in the back of the seats.

His behaviour actually scared me, him at 15 stone and 6ft 3. Me at 10 stone, 6ft!

Tom

I would certainly have gone seeing the guard to complain about this man's behaviour at the very least

 

[323235]

If there's no reservation tags on the whole train then the person has no claim over the seats even if he did have a reservation coupon. Therefore you would have been well within your rights to refuse to move and to speak to the guard about his behaviour.

 

[radamfi]

If you have a reservation but is occupied and there are no other seats, is it still common practice to be put in First Class?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

It appears from your brief report that there might be good reason to believe that an offence under Section 4 or 5 of the Public Order Act may have been committed. But how would you propose producing the evidence and the means of unambiguously identifying the person?

The phrase "a complaint" suggests that you might have been considering that it was the Train Operator who might have been at fault. What fault do you believe that the TOC has permitted? (If it was to complain that it had been impossible to place seat reservations on seats, then I'm sure the Company will have been aware and would have done so if it had been possible - there are several possible reasons for reservation tickets not being placed on their seats. I can't see what beneficial outcome you seek from such a complaint - its not as if you had a seat reservation!

Your final question, "is this wise" is unclear; what are you asking?

 

[rail-britain]

good reason to believe that an offence under Section 4 or 5 of the Public Order Act may have been committed. But how would you propose producing the evidence and the means of unambiguously identifying the person?

There would surely be enough witnesses in the coach and the offender would probably be sitting in the seat under dispute, or very nearby

When I worked with InterCity East Coast I had an entire group of passengers removed, as the matter was disputed and each side was blaming each other
One group claimed they had the reserved seats, the other claimed they had been shouted and physically lifted out of the seats
The train was delayed for 20 minutes whilst BTP arrived, and a further 10 minutes whilst all the people were removed to the platform
It later transpired that when the BTP arrived two other passengers complained about the argument that had broken out between them

 

[DaveNewcastle]

@rail-britain
I agree. In general.

However, the OP has posted after the event. The parties (I will guess) are no longer traceable - hence my questions.

Further, the OP's post sadly lacked much useful information for anyone intending to give a robust reply. It certainly lacked enough factual detail to suggest that (s)he has enough evidence to secure even the remotest prospects of a succesful prosecution. More detail other than height or weight might persuade me otherwise, but I have to stand my my previous post - can the perpetrator be unambiguously identified? (Unless that can be assured, a prosecution cannot succeed).

 

[rail-britain]

I agree, there is little / no point complaining after you have left the service
However, if the destination station is manned (as I would expect Preston to be) a complaint could be lodged
Finally, the service may have CCTV footage, but for all the hassle the matter would probably be consigned to File 13

 

[yorkie]

B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

It would be wise to seek the guard/TM of the train in question immediately after the alleged offence was committed.

However your question suggests a complaint made in the future tense, after the event, which means I do not understand the question or purpose, I'd have to ask the same question that Dave asks "what are you asking?"

 

[Darandio]

Unless you made a note of the seats you had been "told" to vacate from. Couldn't the culprit be then traced that way? Assuming he did have reservations of course and if so, what grounds are there for the TOC to divulge this information? None I presume.

Even if the TOC could trace the person with this information, you then still need credible witnesses.

When was this? Today? If so, doesn't the 18:47 go to Manchester Victoria, not Piccadilly? I only query this as it would be Northern Rail. Do they have reservations or was it a TPE service which I cannot locate? If so, wouldn't that have CCTV?

So many questions.

 

[WestCoast]

When was this? Today? If so, doesn't the 18:47 go to Manchester Victoria, not Piccadilly? I only query this as it would be Northern Rail. Do they have reservations or was it a TPE service which I cannot locate? If so, wouldn't that have CCTV?

The xx.47 departure from Preston is a TPE service going to Manchester Airport (via Piccadilly) - operated by a class 185 which is fitted with CCTV throughout the train. This train, like most TPE services, offers seat reservations.

The xx.49 departure from Preston is a Northern service going to Manchester Victoria. This is mainly 142/150/156/180 operated, so CCTV is unlikely and this service doesn't offer seat reservations (like all Northern services).

 

[the sniper]

B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

It's most probably too late now, unfortunately. At the time it would have been worth finding the train manager/conductor/guard as they could have contacted the BTP. Under the railway byelaws, the Guard would have had the power to ask the person to leave the train (they can lawfully use reasonable force to remove someone should they fail to leave, though that's rather beyond their call of duty), as the guy who swore at you committed an offence by doing so.

As DaveNewcastle says, once the BTP had arrived, they could have gone down the route of dealing with it under the Public Order Act S.4 or S.5. Needless to say, you being in his seat would have been the least of his problems.

 

[Darandio]

The xx.47 departure from Preston is a TPE service going to Manchester Airport (via Piccadilly) - operated by a class 185 which is fitted with CCTV throughout the train. This train, like most TPE services, offers seat reservations.

The xx.49 departure from Preston is a Northern service going to Manchester Victoria. This is mainly 142/150/156/180 operated, so CCTV is unlikely and this service doesn't offer seat reservations (like all Northern services).

Thankyou for clearing that bit up for me.

 

[Crossover]

(which begs the question - if tickets arent put out, does that render the seat reservation invalid?)

I would say possibly so - I was on a TPE service the other week where the unit was taken out of service at York (from Scarborough, heading to Manchester) due to both toilets being non-operational.

The new unit didn't have the reservation ticket on and the guard said on a number of occasions (for the benefit of passengers boarding along the route) that the unit had been swapped and therefore the reservations hadn't been transferred. As a result, passengers may not get their reserved seat but that the train staff would strive to get those with a reserved seat, a seat somewhere within the class, just not necessarily the one they would have had.

 

[northwichcat]

Errors can be made. On a GNER service a few years back a girl got on looked at a particular seat reservation ticket and her own ticket and then sat in what appeared to be an unreserved seat. A woman who got on after her then asked if she was supposed to be in that seat as she had a reservation for it. The girl replied no but she said she had a reservation for a different seat but the seat reservation ticket had a different journey on it to her own ticket so she thought it'd been double booked and taken what she thought was an unreserved seat to be on the safe side.

On TPE services it's very uncommon for no reserved seats to have been taken by people without seat reservations. Some of the reservations are always for people who were due to connect on the train from another service but then missed their connection. Regular passengers are aware of this and the people who can't get an unreserved seat try to quickly snap up unoccupied reserved seats.

Also on TPE some passengers have been known to remove seat reservation tickets and then pretend there never was one. I saw a woman who boarded a TPE service at Warrington Central and alighted at Oxford Rd do this one day. Then an old man going to Scarborough got on at Manchester Oxford Rd looking for his seat reservation. If the woman had even looked at the seat reservation ticket she'd have realised that the reservation only starts after she's alighted.

Another strange occurance I'll add in is when I had an EMT seat reservation it was in a priority seat. Now what am I supposed to do in those circumstances if someone boards needing the priority seat and if I stood up would EMT have compensated me in the same way they would have done if you reserve a seat and they don't honour the reservation?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you have a reservation but is occupied and there are no other seats, is it still common practice to be put in First Class?

Standard class passengers can be put in First class at the guard's discretion if there are unoccupied seats in FC. This applies for any passenger not just those with seat reservations. If this happens and you have a FC ticket you are entitled to compensation.

 

[radamfi]

Standard class passengers can be put in First class at the guard's discretion if there are unoccupied seats in FC. This applies for any passenger not just those with seat reservations. If this happens and you have a FC ticket you are entitled to compensation.

Are you saying that putting a few Standard Class passengers into First Class effectively declassifies First Class?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Are you saying that putting a few Standard Class passengers into First Class effectively declassifies First Class?

In my view, Yes.

Another common error is people being on the wrong coach / train. I went down a train once to find two people about to be exchanging fisty cuffs over a seat reservation, when it turned out one of the people had a reservation for that seat number - but in a different carriage.

 

[AlterEgo]

How is putting one or two standard class passengers in first a "declassification"?

Provided people who are paying for the 1st Class service get what they pay for (be it wi-fi, comfy seats, food, etc), then it's of no consequence if other people in the same class have paid less.

Perhaps every time I travel in first (legitimately, I must add) on my staff pass at the weekend, the coach I sit in is declassified by my sheer presence?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Another common error is people being on the wrong coach / train. . . . . .

Yes, isn't the common variation of that 'conflict' where two pax have reservations for the same seat in the same coach, but one or both of them have open tickets allowing them to travel on a service other than the one which carries their seat reservation (but somehow they still expect 'THEIR SEAT' to be available on whatever service they take?

 

[Old Timer]

Standard class passengers can be put in First class at the guard's discretion if there are unoccupied seats in FC. This applies for any passenger not just those with seat reservations. If this happens and you have a FC ticket you are entitled to compensation.

The Train Manager may choose to upgrade the passengers to First Class at no cost to them.

Standard class passengers will only otherwise travel in First class accommodation if it has been declassified, in which case the TM will notify passengers holding FC tickets and give them the opportunity to move to a nother FC vehicle. This is especially the case where free meals or refreshments are offered.

No refund/compensation is offered in such cases.

When a train is very overcrowded, VT on board staff will ask passengers for their tickets before serving complimentary food/drinks.

 

[AlterEgo]

When a train is very overcrowded, VT on board staff will ask passengers for their tickets before serving complimentary food/drinks.

It's funny you should say that - when I was on the (quite busy) Pendo drag this weekend in First, me and my other half were the only people who were asked by the First Class Host if we had First Class tickets!

He was very embarrassed when we were able to produce staff passes for the same...!

Sometimes I enjoy boarding in Coach G at Euston on a busy train, and watch as after WFJ wave after wave of people pass me into Standard never to be seen again.....closely followed by the TM checking tickets!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, isn't the common variation of that 'conflict' where two pax have reservations for the same seat in the same coach, but one or both of them have open tickets allowing them to travel on a service other than the one which carries their seat reservation (but somehow they still expect 'THEIR SEAT' to be available on whatever service they take?

Yes, I've had that a number of times too. "That's my seat...". Study ticket. Yes, the coach and seat are right but it was for two hours ago. "But it's an open ticket I can catch any train". Yes, that is true, but your reservation is on that train, not every train. "But I've paid for this seat". No you haven't.... (and so , as at this point there are normally no / few spare seats, the debate normally continues for some time, often ending with them wanting my name etc etc)

 

[Chapeltom]

He demanded your seat but allowed you to measure and weigh him?:roll:

I was estimating. Do you really think someone a lot larger than myself is going to bother taking on someone their own size or bigger? He was bullying me, because he knew he could.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In relation to other questions, he was immediately aggressive. That was what shocked me, I refused twice to move, I moved because I feared he was going to assault me. I told the guard and he did nothing, didn't even have a word with the man.

Aahh forget it now, 3 days has passed. Things happen.

 

[RPM]

I was estimating. Do you really think someone a lot larger than myself is going to bother taking on someone their own size or bigger? He was bullying me, because he knew he could.

Sorry, my comment was a bit flippant, but it just seemed very precise for an estimate! Anyway, I've had my bottom slapped by the mods; they've exercised their right to delete my post for the crime of "adds nothing to topic". Ho hum, They may have had a point.

 

[syorksdeano]

Yes, I've had that a number of times too. "That's my seat...". Study ticket. Yes, the coach and seat are right but it was for two hours ago. "But it's an open ticket I can catch any train". Yes, that is true, but your reservation is on that train, not every train. "But I've paid for this seat". No you haven't.... (and so , as at this point there are normally no / few spare seats, the debate normally continues for some time, often ending with them wanting my name etc etc)

Yep I've had that before whilst travelling. One particular story I remember was I was travelling on a service from York to London. Some guy got on and was adamant that the person in front of me was in his seat. The seat was reserved but the person in front of me had a reservation ticket. Anyway 10 minutes of fing and blinding from this person before the train manager/conductor came down. Obviously this guy said "are you going to get him out of my fing seat I paid for that". Train manager/conductor then examined the loud mouths ticket and said "I see that you are going to Doncaster.....this train doesn't stop at Doncaster".

Well the look on this loud mouths face, and me giggling like a naughty schoolboy behind. Loud mouth muttered something and moved to another part of the train waiting to get off, and the best thing is the person sat in the seat had the correct reservation ticket but had ignored most of the conversation by putting his headphones back on.

 

[34D]

Hi all

I wonder if anyone could advise me on the subject of reserved seats. I boarded the 1847 to Manchester Piccadilly at Preston. I sat in a seat with no reservation coupon and was subsequently sworn at by an angry man 3 times my age tell me it was his. This in front of his family. I reluctantly moved.

A) should I have moved
B) because of this man's aggression I am thinking of a complaint, is this wise?

He never showed me his official coupon showing reservation and accused me of moving the reservations in the back of the seats.

His behaviour actually scared me, him at 15 stone and 6ft 3. Me at 10 stone, 6ft!

Tom

All depends on your assertiveness. I certainly wouldn't have moved (unless I was in the wrong, or was travelling in a rail employee capacity). Did you see his tickets? Do bear in mind that coupons could have been removed by other passengers. You should have sat firm, and told him to go get the guard.

 

[Oracle]

I once got on at Southampton Parkway on a AXC headed fro Brumj Internhational and there was no reservation indication. At Reading a load of new pax got on and suddenly this young lady said I was sitting in her seat. I said that when I got on there was no reservation...it seems that whilst in transit it had become reserved! The passenger next to me chuckled as they had sat down in a seat that was not reserved, which I could have occuped, but remained unreserved. I then had to do the usual and squat in a vestibule.