VTEC won't excess 'GC Only' ticket

[Ze Random One]

Having a delightful experience with VTEC at Newcastle. I am trying to excess a Sunderland to London ticket routed GC Only. I can see no advice saying that I shouldn't be able to excess it to a route Any Permitted ticket (it is an off-peak return). However the travel centre refuse the excess due to it being a GC ticket. Are they right?

 

[yorkie]

It's not a publicly documented rule, but there is no 'right' to this excess. East Coast's policy is not to issue such excesses, and there is nothing you can do about it.

You'll have to get a refund (minus £10 admin fee; and if it's a return you will also have the cost of a single subtracted) and buy a new ticket, sadly.

Is this a one-way journey, or are you on your outward or return leg of a return journey?

 

[bb21]

Agreed. TOC specific tickets cannot be excessed to remove the TOC restriction, so the travel centre is correct on this front.

 

[najaB]

It's not a publicly documented rule, but there is no 'right' to this excess. East Coast's policy is not to issue such excesses, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Indeed, I seem to remember quite a long thread about it and the outcome was an agreement to disagree.

 

[Ze Random One]

Where does it say this in the NRCOC or ticket restrictions?

 

[yorkie]

Where does it say this in the NRCOC or ticket restrictions?

Nowhere does it say you have a right to the excess.

Your ticket is restricted by Train Company under NRCoC Condition 10:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
​

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not valid, Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36. For other restrictions on use of tickets, see Condition 11 below

Some other Conditions (e.g. Condition 12 for time restricted tickets or Condition 13 for geographical route restricted tickets) refer to an excess fare, but this is not the case for Condition 10. So it's a refund and a new ticket. Sorry.

 

[bb21]

Where does it say this in the NRCOC or ticket restrictions?

There is no entitlement to an excess fare under Condition 10.

I am not going to engage in another debate about what you are entitled to under the NRCoC. You can always revisit existing threads.

It can be argued that there is an entitlement under Condition 13, but it is debatable whether Condition 13 is relevant at all, and the argument mainly focuses on whether the field being entitled "Route" holds any significance.

 

[najaB]

Where does it say this in the NRCOC or ticket restrictions?

The NRCoC specifically states that you are able to excess away a time restriction (Condition 12), route restriction (Condition 13) or BoJ restriction (Condition 16). There isn't a comparable reference for a TOC restriction (Condition 10).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not going to engage in another debate about what you are entitled to under the NRCoC. You can always revisit existing threads.

There you go, did it for you.

 

[Ze Random One]

Section 13 of the NRCOC seems to imply that an Excess is something that I do have a right to.
The "Grand Ctrl only" restriction is clearly in the Route section of the ticket. 13.e. says I will be liable for an excess if I take another route, and that the cost will be the difference.

 

[yorkie]

Section 13 of the NRCOC seems to imply that an Excess is something that I do have a right to.
The "Grand Ctrl only" restriction is clearly in the Route section of the ticket. 13.e. says I will be liable for an excess if I take another route, and that the cost will be the difference.

The view of the rail industry is that this is not a "route" restriction (Condition 13) but is, in fact, a Train Company restriction (Condition 10).

I agree that the field name should not be "Route" however this is addressed in tickets printed in the new style format.

If you believe that the use of the field name is misleading under consumer law, I suggest you co-operate with staff who are only doing the job they've been told to do, and to take the matter further you could take a photo/scan of all your original tickets and replacement tickets, and lodge a complaint with the ORR ([email protected]) for enforcement action to be considered. I have no idea if this will have any prospect of success or not...

 

[najaB]

The "Grand Ctrl only" restriction is clearly in the Route section of the ticket. 13.e. says I will be liable for an excess if I take another route, and that the cost will be the difference.

Towards the top-right of the forum window there is a 'Search' option, use of which will give you pages and pages of reading material about this very topic.

 

[Ze Random One]

Search is cumbersome from a phone. Sorry if I have caused offence to you.

 

[najaB]

Search is cumbersome from a phone. Sorry if I have caused offence to you.

Here you go.

 

[yorkie]

Well I, for one, feel no offence has been caused

An example search can be found here: https://www.google.co.uk/?q=toc+specific+excess+site:railforums.co.uk (other search terms are available) but there is not much point in having this debate further as it's been done to death.

But I suggest you simply purchase the replacement ticket, request a refund from the point of purchase, and if you think the terms are misleading send all the relevant documentation in to the ORR for them to consider whether or not this is all above board. Let us know how you get on (I wish you good luck, but I do not want to get your hopes up too much!)

 

[bb21]

Search is cumbersome from a phone. Sorry if I have caused offence to you.

No offence taken.

I have already highlighted this argument for you above. The problem is that there is no consensus, and apparently the industry takes the view that Condition 13 does not apply, and it cannot be said that it is not a sensible take on the matter, given the presence of Condition 10.

Unless you are prepared to be a test case, and/or go down the route of what yorkie suggested earlier, with no guarantee of success either way, there is not very much you can do.

 

[Ze Random One]

It's a damn shame because the fault lies with nexus/db as their metro broke down (we had left 25 minutes to spare to change on to our GC service, which I thought reasonable). Had I been travelling on a National rail ticket from Heworth to Sunderland, we would have been covered all the way, and the breakdown would have been the railway's problem. Obviously since the only ticketing facilities at Heworth are metro ones that's moot.

 

[yorkie]

It's a damn shame because the fault lies with nexus/db as their metro broke down (we had left 25 minutes to spare to change on to our GC service, which I thought reasonable). Had I been travelling on a National rail ticket from Heworth to Sunderland, we would have been covered all the way, and the breakdown would have been the railway's problem. Obviously since the only ticketing facilities at Heworth are metro ones that's moot.

What ticket(s) did you have exactly? Where did you travel from exactly - Heworth? How many passengers affected? Did you contact GC?

NRE will happily show itineraries for journeys from Heworth to Sunderland commencing with a Metro service with, for example, a 10 minute connection in Sunderland. I would see this as a valid itinerary.

And before anyone goes on about Metro being not a part of National Rail, I do not believe that is a valid argument as there was a reduction in Northern Rail services on this route specifically to allow more Metro services to operate, and part of the terms of these changes was that the Metro trains would participate in National Rail ticketing.

 

[bb21]

Is there any reason why you didn't buy a through ticket? It is always recommended that a through ticket is purchased where a different mode of transport is used, as insurance against exactly this type of situation.

 

[Ze Random One]

The only through ticket is any permitted, not GC Only, and is thus is much more expensive. We (2 people) were travelling to Sunderland on B+C metro singles bought immediately prior to travel. The ticket office at Sunderland closes at 1700 on a Sunday and the GC contact centre is not open on a Sunday. Nexus/DBTW do not have any customer facing staff at Sunderland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Addendum, our GC tickets were the return portions of Off-peak returns

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Oh, not this chestnut again!

We had this issue when CrossCountry started selling their anytime tickets, people kept buying them because they were cheaper than off peaks and TPE and EC staff were getting all sorts of abuse when the punters were told, no good, you have to buy a new one.

Route specific tickets can be upgraded by an excess, so say manchester to leeds via hebden bridge isnt valid on a TPE service via huddersfield as TPE dont run bia Hebden Bridge but can be upgraded to allow the huddersfield route. Regardless of the fact only NR run via hebden bridge, it is route permitted to use TPE leeds to Huddersfield then change for a service to halifax and on to the calder valley. So the revenue is still shared by both operators, but via hebden bridge northern receive a greater share whereas any permitted TPE get the bigger share as their 5 trains vs northerns 4 when changing stoppers at huddersfield or using the blackpool service is taken into account.

The difference with TOC specific tickets is that the TOC receives 100% of the fare, and not the RSP proportion shared with other TOCs on the same route. Therefore these tickets cannot be excessed as the operator that actually carries the punter doesnt receive any farebox for that ticket. I have this issue with people who buy grand central tickets, then travel on a TPE service, I cant accept them and I cant upgrade them. They will have to purchase a new ticket.

The analogy can be put like this. Basically, if you were taking a ryanair flight to say, paris. buying a flight ticket for easyjet wouldnt get you there because you paid easyjet the fare, not ryanair, so if you boarded a ryanair flight they would tell you to take a hike and buy a new ticket. Its unfortunately the same case with TOC specific tickets, in the same way as an advance purchase for an EC service cannot be used from York to Newcastle on an XC service. Like it or not this is one of the pitfalls of privately operated railways that we have now.

Its often the result of misreading the ticket machines and selecting the wrong ticket. In both cases i have highlighted here i reguarly come across this, and have to recharge accordingly. I understand why mistakes are made and am one of many people who are calling for a much simpler ticketing system than what we have now and i do feel for the people who have made genuine mistakes, but if i dont correct the mistake and charge accordingly, then if something goes wrong, the ticket holder isnt insured and would be entitled to nothing.

 

[yorkie]

I concur with most of the above, but the insurance thing is a bit of a red herring (but let's not go there!) and as for the matter of the revenue... it isn't really a good justification in my opinion as in some cases a TOC will be obliged to excess a geographical route restricted ticket for which they got nothing (e.g. Virgin Trains would not get anything from London to Coventry rte: via High Wycombe, but under the rules they have to excess it).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

There will always be anomalies. As quickly as they eliminate one, another will appear when the fares go up.

2 TPE classics. NTR-RCC cheaper than NTR-MBR (tho not currently) as is SCA-Howden cheaper than SCA-YRK!

 

[Starmill]

Those anomalies have been created becuase TOCs have changed their pricing policies though, for example TPE wanting to charge a premium for York - Scarborough but in so doing forgetting to increase Howden - Scarborough.

Totally not the same thing as rail industry policy not permitting the sensible solution of an excess, rather than the punitive, anti-customer approach they do take, which is that you must buy a new ticket without discount once onboard or pay a Penalty Fare at double this rate.

 

[John @ home]

TOCs have changed their pricing policies ... , for example TPE wanting to charge a premium for York - Scarborough but in so doing forgetting to increase Howden - Scarborough.

All Howden - Scarborough fares are set by Northern.

 

[yorkie]

TPE have created swathes of anomalies, either by forgetting to increase other fares or, in most cases I've seen, for the reason stated by John @ Home. But if anyone wishes to debate it further please create a new thread

Ze Random One - you have a PM

 

[reb0118]

[The] rail industry policy not permitting the sensible solution of an excess, rather than the punitive, anti-customer approach they do take, which is that you must buy a new ticket without discount once on board....

In most cases you will be offered the cheapest valid ticket to complete your journey with the option to put your original "TOC ONLY", usual caveats apply, in for a refund.

If, on the return portion of a TOC ONLY period ticket I will ascertain if you are making, or even contemplating, another journey within the validity period of your original ticket and offer you a return to facilitate that.

I believe most of my colleagues would do similar. We will also give good advice as to how to avoid making the same mistake in the future.

 

[IanXC]

All Howden - Scarborough fares are set by Northern.

Indeed, interestingly around a year ago (?) these tickets were routed 'via Hull' as I witnessed a passenger board a service at Howden and request a ticket to Scarborough, the guard being unable to supply one!

 

[John @ home]

around a year ago (?) these tickets were routed 'via Hull'!

http://www.farehistory.info/history/how/sca/ shows that from 2007 to 2013 the only fares available were route Any Permitted or route TPE Only.

I witnessed a passenger board a service at Howden and request a ticket to Scarborough, the guard being unable to supply one!

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx shows us that the shortest route Howden - Scarborough is via York.

If the changes observed by IanXC deleted the shortest route as an available Permitted Route, I'm not surprised they had to be reversed!

 

[IanXC]

http://www.farehistory.info/history/how/sca/ shows that from 2007 to 2013 the only fares available were route Any Permitted or route TPE Only.http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx shows us that the shortest route Howden - Scarborough is via York.

If the changes observed by IanXC deleted the shortest route as an available Permitted Route, I'm not surprised they had to be reversed!

Interesting. I must say I didn't look it up at the time, relying on the conversation I overheard with the guard checking on his Avantix.

 

[Starmill]

In most cases you will be offered the cheapest valid ticket to complete your journey with the option to put your original "TOC ONLY", usual caveats apply, in for a refund.

If, on the return portion of a TOC ONLY period ticket I will ascertain if you are making, or even contemplating, another journey within the validity period of your original ticket and offer you a return to facilitate that.

I believe most of my colleagues would do similar. We will also give good advice as to how to avoid making the same mistake in the future.

It's good that ScotRail and ScotRail guards have less punitive and more sensible policies for dealing with the potential problem.

You mightn't expect to receive the same concessions should you board a London Midland train from Milton Keynes to London with a route VTWC TRAINS ONLY ('what does that mean?') ticket.