W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[455driver]

I was only answering a question as to what the TMs will do if they don't do the doors. They seem to do a lot on HS1.
I would always want a second member or staff on a train. I can only speak of my local experiance. They all have two members on board.

What use is a second member of staff, who won't have safety training etc, in an accident if the driver is smeared up the bulkhead?

If this gets in I would bet a year's salary that the guards safety critical knowledge will be gone within 2 franchise changes!
Neither FGW/DaFT have said anything to make me think otherwise, in fact 'that is a decision for the new operator' leads me to believe that the above is exactly what they are intending, otherwise they could they could put 'but we have no reason to believe that would be the case' and bearing in mind their love of using a thousand words but saying nothing makes it all the more iffy.

 

[Captain Chaos]

What use is a second member of staff, who won't have safety training etc, in an accident if the driver is smeared up the bulkhead?

If this gets in I would bet a year's salary that the guards safety critical knowledge will be gone within 2 franchise changes!
Neither FGW/DaFT have said anything to make me think otherwise, in fact 'that is a decision for the new operator' leads me to believe that the above is exactly what they are intending, otherwise they could they could put 'but we have no reason to believe that would be the case' and bearing in mind their love of using a thousand words but saying nothing makes it all the more iffy.

This is exactly what they said in the previous franchise. 'The doors will be operated on the new trains by Guards. However the trains are also able to run in DOO mode where the driver operates the doors and the decision on how the trains operate will be up to the next franchise holder.'

So. Why is it that despite it being the same management they have now decided DOO/DO is the way to go? It's the same people in charge. They are the next franchise holders. Why the change of heart?

 

[Kentish Paul]

With respect, can I ask what qualifications you have to be able to identify problems with train dispatch?

Several back in slam doors days. None since.
What qualifications do you want? As a 60 year old train traveller i can identify dispatch problems as well as you.

 

[Robertj21a]

If this gets in I would bet a year's salary that the guards safety critical knowledge will be gone within 2 franchise changes!

I don't know the timescales but surely '2 franchise changes' takes us quite well into the future ? I would most certainly hope that we've all moved on quite a lot more by then (new technology?) and can forget that we used to have this sort of issue back in 'the good old days'.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I don't know the timescales but surely '2 franchise changes' takes us quite well into the future ? I would most certainly hope that we've all moved on quite a lot more by then (new technology?) and can forget that we used to have this sort of issue back in 'the good old days'.

Not really. There has been 2 direct awards of the franchise already. So it could be direct awarded again too.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not really. There has been 2 direct awards of the franchise already. So it could be direct awarded again too.

.......but, surely, any future change is now likely to be for a significant period of time ?

 

[Captain Chaos]

.......but, surely, any future change is now likely to be for a significant period of time ?

Given how delayed certain projects are I have the feeling another direct award is going to follow this one. Just a gut feeling.

 

[Aictos]

Yes they did, but in the meeting a couple of weeks ago (the only neeting ASLEF were invited to) at the end of it Mark Hopwood had to 'nip out and print something off', which was the DOO proposals for the Bristol area when the 165/166's are transferred.

What does that tell you about fgws (non official) 'guarantees'?

Doesn't fill me with confidence there, does that answer your question?

 

[455driver]

Just got home and read the latest letter from FGW-

Apparently keeping the safety competent (not critical) guard on board means the trains are not DOO,

even with the guard not having anything to do with the operation of the train.

They will be keeping Safety critical (they are still critical) despatchers at stations,

I wasn't aware they were in the firing line as well!

FGW are going to open discussions with DaFT, Hitachi and the rolling stock owners to fit buffets to the AT300 trains linking London, Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall.

Excuse me but I thought the AT300s having buffets was a given and was always the intention!

Maintenance,

the RMT has conceded this point and have made arrangements for the displaced staff to be looked on favourably (my words, theirs are just more rhetoric).

No job losses,

funnily enough apart from maintenance I wasn't aware there were going to be any!

FGW believe that they have resolved almost every issue,

well yes except for (what is to most of us) the most important one!

So as you can see the FGW cow manure bandwagon (that doesn't rhyme now) is alive and well!

 

[313103]

I am looking forward to when ASLEF get involved (which it eventually will - as ASLEFs position is that there should be NO extension of DOO). Have heard those words directly from Mick Whelans lips...

Yes i have also heard those same words from the same mouth, yet when LO were about to introduce DOO, his words changed to 'There is nothing we can do as we signed an agreement in 1997 that accepts DOO as the method of working'. Yet strangely enough not one of the ASLEF reps at that time and upto the announcement of DOO in 2013 say anything to there fellow colleagues in the Guards grade or at higher level in the union.

Never trust people who speak with fork tongue.

Sorry i have digressed from the original thread but i think this point needed to be made.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes i have also heard those same words from the same mouth, yet when LO were about to introduce DOO, his words changed to 'There is nothing we can do as we signed an agreement in 1997 that accepts DOO as the method of working'. Yet strangely enough not one of the ASLEF reps at that time and upto the announcement of DOO in 2013 say anything to there fellow colleagues in the Guards grade or at higher level in the union.

Never trust people who speak with fork tongue.

Sorry i have digressed from the original thread but i think this point needed to be made.

If that's the case then I think it's a very valid reminder to those who expect ASLEF to resolve everything, in their favour.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't know the timescales but surely '2 franchise changes' takes us quite well into the future ? I would most certainly hope that we've all moved on quite a lot more by then (new technology?) and can forget that we used to have this sort of issue back in 'the good old days'.

I'm sorry but your comments are very similar to the rubbish coming out of FGW's PR department about how 'modern trains can't be operated in the same way as the 40 yr old ones'. No amount of technology will ever save the British public from getting hurt because of their own stupidity. I haven't found it yet but I'm sure that there is a sign at stations that says please shut off you brain as you enter the station. Train dispatch is the most high risk area of the entire railway operations and without spending serious amounts of money on lots of technical kit at all unmanned stations nothing will be as safe as having a fully qualified guard at the the back.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sorry but your comments are very similar to the rubbish coming out of FGW's PR department about how 'modern trains can't be operated in the same way as the 40 yr old ones'. No amount of technology will ever save the British public from getting hurt because of their own stupidity. I haven't found it yet but I'm sure that there is a sign at stations that says please shut off you brain as you enter the station. Train dispatch is the most high risk area of the entire railway operations and without spending serious amounts of money on lots of technical kit at all unmanned stations nothing will be as safe as having a fully qualified guard at the the back.

I didn't say anything about old vs new trains.

It may well be your view that no amount of technology will ever resolve this issue and you may well be right. Personally, I doubt that this issue will still exist after 2 more franchise changes - though how/what technology (or other) resolves it I have no idea.

It just seems to me that there's far too much of this repetitive 'it will never happen' or 'ASLEF will stop it' - and that may well prove to be correct, but that doesn't stop it sounding like there's a reluctance to even consider new thoughts or practices.

 

[ComUtoR]

far too much of this repetitive 'it will never happen' or 'ASLEF will stop it' - and that may well prove to be correct, but that doesn't stop it sounding like there's a reluctance to even consider new thoughts or practices.

This is a very large misconception. Does anyone really believe that the unions and the TOC's are stuck in the dark ages and are refusing to move forward ?

Does anyone really believe that there aren't numerous focus groups etc out there continually looking at technology to improve safety ? GPS, GSMR, SDO, Mitrac, ATO, ERTMS etc. Hell, even DOO monitors ave improved since I first started. They use to be black and white but are now much better quality and colour. Some TOC's are still using mirrors !

I've seen technology that reduced stop shorts and spoken at great length about technology that can stop the train AFTER dispatch to again reduce the number of PTI incidents.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is a very large misconception. Does anyone really believe that the unions and the TOC's are stuck in the dark ages and are refusing to move forward ?

Does anyone really believe that there aren't numerous focus groups etc out there continually looking at technology to improve safety ? GPS, GSMR, SDO, Mitrac, ATO, ERTMS etc. Hell, even DOO monitors ave improved since I first started. They use to be black and white but are now much better quality and colour. Some TOC's are still using mirrors !

I've seen technology that reduced stop shorts and spoken at great length about technology that can stop the train AFTER dispatch to again reduce the number of PTI incidents.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Quite - not sure if you're agreeing with me or not !!

My point was that new technology may well come along by the time 2 franchises have passed by - but the general reaction to that comment was, from some, the usual Neanderthal approach.

I'm delighted to hear that there's plenty of new technology being considered - but I guess that some union members may not be so happy.

 

[BestWestern]

Quite - not sure if you're agreeing with me or not !!

My point was that new technology may well come along by the time 2 franchises have passed by - but the general reaction to that comment was, from some, the usual Neanderthal approach.

I'm delighted to hear that there's plenty of new technology being considered - but I guess that some union members may not be so happy.

Just a point worth making here, quite relevant - many involved in this dispute have said that they have no issue with a Driver releasing the doors, due to that act being made safe by the technology you mention. Various kit it available which will remove the inherent risks of a Driver incorrectly releasing the doors (which, any DOO Driver will confirm, happens rather a lot more than some would like to believe). However, the dispatch of a train remains the most risk-laden element, and that is where the Guard needs to be in charge.

 

[455driver]

Just a point worth making here, quite relevant - many involved in this dispute have said that they have no issue with a Driver releasing the doors, due to that act being made safe by the technology you mention. Various kit it available which will remove the inherent risks of a Driver incorrectly releasing the doors (which, any DOO Driver will confirm, happens rather a lot more than some would like to believe). However, the dispatch of a train remains the most risk-laden element, and that is where the Guard needs to be in charge.

What happens when its a 10 coach platform (so no ASDO beacons) but the driver stops at the 5 car mark with a 9 or 10 coach train and hits the open buttons? If there was a guard on board he would notice it and not release the doors so no real problem.

 

[swt_passenger]

What happens when its a 10 coach platform (so no ASDO beacons) but the driver stops at the 5 car mark with a 9 or 10 coach train and hits the open buttons?

All of the full length platforms in SWT's stations still have the ASDO balises fitted - part of the fail safe nature of the design is that it has to be an all or nothing system, it isn't just switched on for short platforms.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm delighted to hear that there's plenty of new technology being considered - but I guess that some union members may not be so happy.

You cannot tar an entire workforce with the same brush based on what you interpret from a few forumites. I haven't yet met a single person on the railway who doesn't want it to be safer. What people want is sensible and well thought out implementation of good working practices and using the right technology. Yes many still default to keeping humans firmly in place but it is because they know how important that is.

The Unions are actively involved in bringing in technology and moving the railway forward but not at the expense of people and not just blind implementation. With how some companies work and how some shocking practices come in to force I do worry about where we would be without some one there to protect employees and passengers.

 

[Robertj21a]

You cannot tar an entire workforce with the same brush based on what you interpret from a few forumites. I haven't yet met a single person on the railway who doesn't want it to be safer. What people want is sensible and well thought out implementation of good working practices and using the right technology. Yes many still default to keeping humans firmly in place but it is because they know how important that is.

The Unions are actively involved in bringing in technology and moving the railway forward but not at the expense of people and not just blind implementation. With how some companies work and how some shocking practices come in to force I do worry about where we would be without some one there to protect employees and passengers.

Not sure how I 'tar an entire workforce' when I specifically mentioned *some*.

 

[bnm]

What people want is sensible and well thought out implementation of good working practices and using the right technology. Yes many still default to keeping humans firmly in place but it is because they know how important that is.

However, year on year mass transportation becomes safer and year on year less staff are required to operate the safety critical aspects of transport systems with the introduction of new systems and working practices. That has been the way for time immemorial.

The safety card is being vastly overstated in this current dispute. The unsafest part in any transport system is the human. The overwhelmingly majority of major incidents causing death or injury are caused by human error.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't see Guards as just about safety.

Feel free to read these forums and see where passenger and Guard interact and how aggrieved people feel when the Guard isn't present. I've said numerous times that I'm DOO and that means that I am the ONLY person on board.

 

[Monty]

All of the full length platforms in SWT's stations still have the ASDO balises fitted - part of the fail safe nature of the design is that it has to be an all or nothing system, it isn't just switched on for short platforms.

You would still have issues with doors being opened off the platform with SWT's system. The 450/444s must be positioned correctly before the doors are released, the fail safe in the the system used by SWT is the guard.

 

[455driver]

All of the full length platforms in SWT's stations still have the ASDO balises fitted - part of the fail safe nature of the design is that it has to be an all or nothing system, it isn't just switched on for short platforms.

So what sort of signal does it send to the train?

Is it to each carriage as it passes over it that it can open its doors or is it just a signal to the leading coach telling the train how many coaches can be opened?

If its the first then a stop short will just mean that passengers cant get off, but if its the latter then a stop short will still have people dropping into the cess/6ft!

 

[hassaanhc]

So what sort of signal does it send to the train?

Is it to each carriage as it passes over it that it can open its doors or is it just a signal to the leading coach telling the train how many coaches can be opened?

If its the first then a stop short will just mean that passengers cant get off, but if its the latter then a stop short will still have people dropping into the cess/6ft!

458/5 units work using the first method. I have seen before at stations where it is meant to be Front 8 coaches, but on certain occasions only 7 opened. And if a signal is not received, then the over-ride means only the Front 4 open, no matter which station it is, as Chertsey only fits 4 so a failure mode has to assume that.
Likewise, the LUL S Stock don't open the doors in both end cars if the over-ride is operated, as the shortest platform (at Baker Street, Eastbound Circle) has only one door in the leading car on the platform, and none in the rear car.

 

[theironroad]

So what sort of signal does it send to the train?

Is it to each carriage as it passes over it that it can open its doors or is it just a signal to the leading coach telling the train how many coaches can be opened?

If its the first then a stop short will just mean that passengers cant get off, but if its the latter then a stop short will still have people dropping into the cess/6ft!

SWT desiros are being fitted with the second option, the kit is under the leading cab and when it passes over the beacon in the four foot, it will tell the desiro tms how many coaches can open. You've outlined what could happen in a stop short. If the becon fails to be read correctly, it will turn to default mode, where 4 coaches on a 450 and 3 coaches on a 444 will open regardless of platform length.

 

[455driver]

Why can I foresee a lot of passengers not being able to get off and the driver being unaware until the passcoms start being pulled!

Oops silly me, technology is the answer to everything isn't it!

One more question, who is supposed to make all the announcements about which coaches will have their doors released at the next station?

 

[theironroad]

Why can I foresee a lot of passengers not being able to get off and the driver being unaware until the passcoms start being pulled!

Oops silly me, technology is the answer to everything isn't it!

One more question, who is supposed to make all the announcements about which coaches will have their doors released at the next station?

Any announcements will be down to the guard. I believe the system will announce the carriage number and display it internally, but presumably not until the becon has been passed over, so not sure how people will get advance warning.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see Guards as just about safety.

Feel free to read these forums and see where passenger and Guard interact and how aggrieved people feel when the Guard isn't present. I've said numerous times that I'm DOO and that means that I am the ONLY person on board.

I agree absolutely agree and I don't believe any (genuine) passengers are supportive of not having any staff walking through the train. But having DOO doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any passenger and staff interaction; the Strathclyde model being an example.

 

[Carlisle]

It is a belligerent minority of RMT members at GWR/FGW who are holding sway.

Got an assurance from GWR/FGW, following the first walk out, that Class 800/801 would not operate without a safety competent (the original ballot used that word) guard, with other reasons for the strike largely settled. Now the dispute is about who operates the doors. A belligerent moving of the goalposts by the RMT, and not an original reason for industrial action on the ballot.

That's a pretty accurate summing up of things ,publicly the RMT express perfectly genuine safety concerns like drivers having to cope with incidents alone especially in the likes of rural Devon, Cornwall or Somerset and quite understandability concessions were made , however instead of moving forward a hard line minority is only interested in trying to engineer this dispute to the same goal they achieved with SWT in 1998 where they scrapped all plans for an easier life with their unions