What travel is currently allowed by the legislation?

[MikeWM]

I am somewhat perturbed and very disappointed at the messaging displayed on the EMR website when any attempt is made to buy a ticket.

That implies for example that you shouldn't catch a train to attend a medical appointment, amongst many other things, which is something that isn't even 'advised' against.

The railway really isn't helping itself, is it?

 

[MikeWM]

GA's website has the same nonsense They either don't know or don't care, both of which are deeply troubling.

I'm rapidly approaching the state where I say 'hey railway, you know that approx £4000 I spend with you each year? You clearly don't want my business anymore, so I'm over here, buying a car with it.'

 

[Skymonster]

Has anybody sent EMR the latest guidance:

National lockdown: Stay at Home

Coronavirus remains a serious threat across the country. Find out what you can and cannot do.

www.gov.uk

"
1.13 Can I use public transport if I’m seeing friends in a park or going to my parents’ garden?

You should avoid using public transport if you can. You should cycle, walk or drive wherever possible. Consider all other forms of transport before using public transport. If you need to use public transport, use should follow the safer travel guidance for passengers.

"

Indeed, and by blocking access to the "buy tickets" function until users have ticked the "My travel is essential because I am a key worker..." box, EMR is effectively requiring some prospective customers, who have a right to travel, to lie in order to buy a ticket.

 

[scotrail158713]

Scotrail are a bit more practical - although bits like the second point could be reworded to “if possible, avoid these main commuting times...”

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, and by blocking access to the "buy tickets" function until users have ticked the "My travel is essential because I am a key worker..." box, EMR is effectively requiring some prospective customers, who have a right to travel, to lie in order to buy a ticket.

Or forcing people to go to ticket offices and make a person to person transaction.

Scotrail are a bit more practical - although bits like the second point could be reworded to “if possible, avoid these main commuting times...”

View attachment 78917

Yes, that seems a more justifiable approach in line with the guidance (ironically the English guidance).

 

[Tomp94]

Please help us keep public transport free for key workers who need it. In line with government advice, you should only be travelling if you are unable to work from home, and only on public transport if you cannot travel by other means. Please do not use public transport for leisure travel. If you must travel, always practice social distancing.

Taken from the Southern Website, again “no leisure travel”.... I thought this was allowed? Some say it is, others say it’s not. I’m gasping to leave my hometown, I have no car And the train is my way of getting around.

i personally can’t see the issue with leisure travel so long as you mask up, use hand sanitiser, travel outside of peak hours, etc. It’s not like the southern trains near me (Worthing) are busy at this time of A week day, even the ones that go to Southampton, plenty of seats even prior to Covid.

 

[Skymonster]

The "check this box to confirm you are a key worker..." before buying a ticket thing is interesting, especially in the context of that golfer who was supposedly told he should not be travelling by train a few days ago. Now, not only could a rail employee try to impose their opinion and say a person should not be travelling for leisure purposes, but also customers could be accused to lying in order to buy a ticket (as a result of checking that box when they are not a key worker). I have been through the process on other TOC websites, and they do not impose such conditions when buying EMR tickets, so it appears that only customers buying direct from EMR and GA are being manipulated in this way.

 

[theironroad]

Indeed, and by blocking access to the "buy tickets" function until users have ticked the "My travel is essential because I am a key worker..." box, EMR is effectively requiring some prospective customers, who have a right to travel, to lie in order to buy a ticket.

The EMR ticketing page requiring ticks before proceeding does make me uneasy even if it's supposed to be well meaning.

As usual during this pandemic , the messaging from government is mixed and confusing.

Section 5.1 in the link you provided doesn't explicitly ban leisure travel, but says if you are making an essential journey , then consider any other means before public transport. There is a inference there that journies should be essential only.

However in section 5.3, it says public transport should be a last resort if going to 'green spaces,' which is obviously for exercise/leisure. The inference being that it's ok to use public transport for exercise/leisure if no other options.

The image I attach was at Waterloo on Sunday 31/5 and seems to be from HMG rather than TOC/NR

 

[Freightmaster]

Please help us keep public transport free for key workers who need it. In line with government advice, you should only be travelling if you are unable to work from home, and only on public transport if you cannot travel by other means. Please do not use public transport for leisure travel. If you must travel, always practice social distancing.

Taken from the Southern Website, again “no leisure travel”.... I thought this was allowed? Some say it is, others say it’s not.

It's 100% allowed by law if you do not have access to a car, but many (all?) TOCs have decided to use strongly worded
warnings to try and scare such people off because they are being bankrolled by the government for the next few months,
so they couldn't care less if their trains are carrying 15 passengers or 500!!

This is similar to people with 'guaranteed' income, such as pensioners and public sector workers, posting on forums like this
in support of more lengthy/severe lockdown measures - in other words, where people/companies are isolated from the financial
effects of the virus, they default to the 'stay at home' mantra because doing so it doesn't affect them.




MARK

 

[Skymonster]

It's 100% allowed by law if you do not have access to a car, but many (all?) TOCs have decided to use strongly worded
warnings to try and scare such people off because they are being bankrolled by the government for the next few months,
so they couldn't care less if their trains are carrying 15 passengers or 500!!

This is similar to people with 'guaranteed' income, such as pensioners and public sector workers, posting on forums like this
in support of more lengthy/severe lockdown measures - in other words, where people/companies are isolated from the financial
effects of the virus, they default to the 'stay at home' mantra because doing so it doesn't affect them.

MARK

Absolutely spot on, on both points Mark. I believe that DfT should be intervening to compel TOCs to apply the latest rules, but I guess the government isn't too bothered about people being deterred from using public transport at the moment even if the methods of doing so include underhand tactics.

 

[MikeWM]

Absolutely spot on, on both points Mark. I believe that DfT should be intervening to compel TOCs to apply the latest rules, but I guess the government isn't too bothered about people being deterred from using public transport at the moment even if the methods of doing so include underhand tactics.

I think it is one level of being underhand to 'nudge' people away from leisure travel, even though they ought not to be doing so in the way that they are.

I think it is something else to directly say that eg. people shouldn't travel to a hospital appointment. That's despicable behaviour.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I am somewhat perturbed and very disappointed at the messaging displayed on the EMR website when any attempt is made to buy a ticket.

View attachment 78913

I have a particular problem with the second bullet “My travel is essential because I am a key worker, or a worker not able to work from home.” This seems to be a case of EMR making up rules for itself and not adapting to the latest situation, as the current laws and guidelines do not prohibit travel by public transport, even for leisure purposes, if using other forms of transport is not viable. It is also concerning that lying - ticking all of the boxes when they don’t all apply - could be used against a passenger should it ultimately be proven that they [for example] are not a key worker.

Slightly pedantic point but you don't need to tick all the boxes to progress beyond that screen to make a booking. I just ticked the top one as the other three are irrelevant.

 

[Skymonster]

Slightly pedantic point but you don't need to tick all the boxes to progress beyond that screen to make a booking. I just ticked the top one as the other three are irrelevant.

However, the text says: if ANY box remains unticked do not travel.

 

[Mag_seven]

However, the text says: if ANY box remains unticked do not travel.

Will a ticket be issued and payment taken if you do not tick all the boxes?

 

[Enthusiast]

This is similar to people with 'guaranteed' income, such as pensioners and public sector workers, posting on forums like this
in support of more lengthy/severe lockdown measures

Ironically pensioners will be among the worst effected if the government's supply of money to borrow becomes exhausted - which it will if the lockdown continues and the bond market loses confidence in the economy (a point which is fast approaching anyway). They will then have to resort to printing worthless money and that will lead to high levels of inflation. Neither the State pension scheme nor commercial schemes can afford increased benefits beyond two or three percent tops.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Seen this on twitter, assuming it's true as stations are private property? Though I don't see the issue with being at a quiet unstaffed station.

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1268138352156573696

 

[Skymonster]

Seen this on twitter, assuming it's true as stations are private property? Though I don't see the issue with being at a quiet unstaffed station.

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1268138352156573696

Oh dear, another TOC trying to suggest that only essential travel is allowed...

 

[nedchester]

Will a ticket be issued and payment taken if you do not tick all the boxes?

If it is and you can’t buy a ticket then you can legally board the train as ticket purchasing facilities were not available.....

 

[Starmill]

Has anybody sent EMR the latest guidance:

National lockdown: Stay at Home

Coronavirus remains a serious threat across the country. Find out what you can and cannot do.

www.gov.uk

"
1.13 Can I use public transport if I’m seeing friends in a park or going to my parents’ garden?

You should avoid using public transport if you can. You should cycle, walk or drive wherever possible. Consider all other forms of transport before using public transport. If you need to use public transport, use should follow the safer travel guidance for passengers.

"

I think the thing is they're not claiming it's unlawful for you to travel, so this doesn't actually make much difference. They're saying that unless you're going to work and can't avoid using the train, they don't want your business, which is a different thing. It's for you to judge them for that, but doesn't make their stance unlawful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the Unions involved in this on the quiet? I recall it being posted on here that they would not countenance any reopening unless it was key worker commuting only?

 

[Belperpete]

This is similar to people with 'guaranteed' income, such as pensioners and public sector workers, posting on forums like this
in support of more lengthy/severe lockdown measures - in other words, where people/companies are isolated from the financial
effects of the virus, they default to the 'stay at home' mantra because doing so it doesn't affect them.

Just because some people may be less financially affected than others, does not mean they are not affected in other ways. Those people who are shielding, for example, have been under effective house-arrest for the best part of three months - try telling them that the lockdown doesn't affect them! I don't know a single person who wouldn't be glad to end the lockdown as soon as possible. I suppose I should at least be thankful you didn't say that people are enjoying the lockdown.

We are currently the "sick man of Europe", with just about the worst level of infections. Even Spain doesn't want plane-loads of pox-ridden Brits heading their way, and not long ago they were one of the worst-affected. Removing the restrictions now, and locking us into the current level of infections (or worse still, allowing the virus to run out of control again) would make us a pariah country - nobody would want to come here. Our tourism and restaurant trades would be destroyed, and our status as an international trade and travel hub would take a serious hit. More importantly, international investors would desert us in favour of our virus-free competitors, causing sterling and our economy to collapse. How long would your job last then?

Fortunately, other than a few self-centred individuals, most people see that it is in everyone's interests that we stick with the lockdown until we have got the numbers of infections down to a manageable level, consistent with our international competitors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the thing is they're not claiming it's unlawful for you to travel, so this doesn't actually make much difference. They're saying that unless you're going to work and can't avoid using the train, they don't want your business, which is a different thing. It's for you to judge them for that, but doesn't make their stance unlawful.

A private business, of course, can refuse any custom it wishes without giving a reason, provided there isn't evidence it was for racist, sexist etc reasons.

The question is if it is in breach of the agreement with the Government - I suspect it is not.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the thing is they're not claiming it's unlawful for you to travel, so this doesn't actually make much difference. They're saying that unless you're going to work and can't avoid using the train, they don't want your business, which is a different thing. It's for you to judge them for that, but doesn't make their stance unlawful.

I wouldn't say it's unlawful. Rather, inappropriate for a taxpayer funded service to be attempting to prevent me from undertaking activities that are expressly permitted in the Government guidance. There's no nuance to the message as there would be if they were saying "If you are travelling to undertake a permitted activity (e.g. exercising outdoors with a friend) please do not use us if you have an alternative". In that instance they're clearly expressing a preferance for people to travel another way, but not trying to prevent them from doing what they're allowed to do.

 

[Belperpete]

i personally can’t see the issue with leisure travel so long as you mask up, use hand sanitiser, travel outside of peak hours, etc. It’s not like the southern trains near me (Worthing) are busy at this time of A week day, even the ones that go to Southampton, plenty of seats even prior to Covid.

Unfortunately a message tailored for each station and time of day would be so long nobody would read it.

I see nothing sinister in this, they are obviously trying to dissuade people from travelling unnecessarily, as priority needs to be given to essential workers and those travelling to and from work. If the trains become full of everyone going on day trips out, then essential and other workers may not be able to get on, or feel that it is safe to do so. A care home worker might not want to travel on a busy train full of day-trippers, for example.

 

[Skymonster]

A private business, of course, can refuse any custom it wishes without giving a reason, provided there isn't evidence it was for racist, sexist etc reasons.

The question is if it is in breach of the agreement with the Government - I suspect it is not.

In normal times, the idea that a train company could just decide that it didn't want certain customers' business would be preposterous. Sadly, in these times, I could just about see this government accepting such restrictions, enabling the buck to be passed along with blame to the TOC.

 

[yorksrob]

Fortunately, other than a few self-centred individuals, most people see that it is in everyone's interests that we stick with the lockdown until we have got the numbers of infections down to a manageable level, consistent with our international competitors.

Whilst I'm not an advocate for the blanket lifting of lockdown immediately, the uncomfortable question is why, with the lockdown having gone on for as long as it has, have infections continued at the current level. I really hope that the track and trace system might help to identify where these infections are coming from because it might be more use than the lockdown.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I'm not an advocate for the blanket lifting of lockdown immediately, the uncomfortable question is why, with the lockdown having gone on for as long as it has, have infections continued at the current level. I really hope that the track and trace system might help to identify where these infections are coming from because it might be more use than the lockdown.

News reports I saw over the past few days suggested the root of it at the moment is care homes and hospitals, and it's leaking out from there by way of staff. As both are very controlled environments we really should be able to sort that - live-in staff with frequent testing could well work and has been suggested before (and has actually been adopted by some homes independently, which has worked in stopping infections getting in there).

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately a message tailored for each station and time of day would be so long nobody would read it.

I see nothing sinister in this, they are obviously trying to dissuade people from travelling unnecessarily, as priority needs to be given to essential workers and those travelling to and from work. If the trains become full of everyone going on day trips out, then essential and other workers may not be able to get on, or feel that it is safe to do so. A care home worker might not want to travel on a busy train full of day-trippers, for example.

At the same time, if the trains have been empty for the past two months, where is this flood of key workers suddenly going to come from.

As for a message tailored for each time of day, isn't this what the railway has been doing with off-peak for the past hundred years ?

 

[Skymonster]

I see nothing sinister in this, they are obviously trying to dissuade people from travelling unnecessarily, as priority needs to be given to essential workers and those travelling to and from work. If the trains become full of everyone going on day trips out, then essential and other workers may not be able to get on, or feel that it is safe to do so. A care home worker might not want to travel on a busy train full of day-trippers, for example.

Oh but there would be something very sinister going on if companies that are effectively running public services are denying access to some and making up their own rules that usurp the current legal position. I contend that it should not be in the TOC's remit to make up their own rules, but instead they should be working to find ways of accommodating the legislation.

 

[yorksrob]

News reports I saw over the past few days suggested the root of it at the moment is care homes and hospitals, and it's leaking out from there by way of staff. As both are very controlled environments we really should be able to sort that - live-in staff with frequent testing could well work and has been suggested before (and has actually been adopted by some homes independently, which has worked in stopping infections getting in there).

That would be useful to have confirmed.