Will i be Prosecuted?

[Flamingo]

I read some of these threads, and think that the passengers in FGW and Arriva land don't know they are born! If everybody who got on a train in South Wales without a ticket when the ticket offices were open was taken to court, the entire judicial system in Wales would grind to a halt. They even write in to complain when they are told they can't get a railcard discount or a cheap day return!

 

[Old Timer]

I think they must have special days set aside in the West Midlands, as LM (and previously Central) take no prisoners, with the names and addresses posted on special posters at every station, and these come out on a regular basis.

Unfortunately for some reason the RPI fail to be visible at night or at weekends from what I understand which somewhat detracts from an otherwise very good approach to catching out the thieves who use the system.

 

[Flamingo]

Unfortunately for some reason the RPI fail to be visible at night or at weekends from what I understand which somewhat detracts from an otherwise very good approach to catching out the thieves who use the system.

Same shift pattern as BTP use then?

 

[tony_mac]

As Max says, Northern are usually quite flexible about where their passengers purchase tickets

That's part of the problem - 98% of the time Northern will quite happily sell discounted tickets on board, even when the ticket office is open.

I find that ticket offices are fairly often closed randomly while staff perform 'other duties', and the train staff won't know about it, so this policy isn't very surprising.

Then, 1% of the time they only sell undiscounted tickets, and the other 1% they threaten to prosecute.
(Numbers are obviously made up).


And, to the OP, just on the off-chance - what other tickets did you hold that day?
For instance, a Sheffield to London 'Any Permitted' ticket would have been valid via Meadowhall.
I just wonder if it would help matters if you did actually have a valid ticket, after all (although it may not, if you didn't show it when requested - but maybe they didn't actually request it!).

 

[Old Timer]

Same shift pattern as BTP use then?

Ouch !

 

[nedchester]

Unfortunately for some reason the RPI fail to be visible at night or at weekends from what I understand which somewhat detracts from an otherwise very good approach to catching out the thieves who use the system.

At night and weekend there are probably more fare evaders who are likely to cause trouble so the RPIs will go for the easy hit, the hapless passenger who makes a fairly innocent mistake. Rather like the 'mistake' of saying that the passenger made a journey on EMT when he clearly didn't!

OK maybe there should be a more clear message about the consequences of not having bought a ticket at the station but to be honest there are so many mixed messages coming from the railway then it is hardly surprising that people don't realise the rules. That is why when a passenger offers to pay then they should be allowed to do so. If they get shifty and try and make up some story then fine take them to the cleaners.

Another issue is that is it right that passengers should have to wait 15 to 20 minutes to buy a ticket when they can usually buy it on the train (with Northern)

It's all well and good having a hard line approach but when the railway can be effectively free at certain times of day then there is a lack of consistency.

 

[mralexn]

That's part of the problem - 98% of the time Northern will quite happily sell discounted tickets on board, even when the ticket office is open.

I find that ticket offices are fairly often closed randomly while staff perform 'other duties', and the train staff won't know about it, so this policy isn't very surprising.

Then, 1% of the time they only sell undiscounted tickets, and the other 1% they threaten to prosecute.
(Numbers are obviously made up).


And, to the OP, just on the off-chance - what other tickets did you hold that day?
For instance, a Sheffield to London 'Any Permitted' ticket would have been valid via Meadowhall.
I just wonder if it would help matters if you did actually have a valid ticket, after all (although it may not, if you didn't show it when requested - but maybe they didn't actually request it!).

the only tickets for that day i had on me were, well... (brace yourself)
Advance First Singles for..

Plymouth - Par
Par - Paddington
Kings X - York
York - Sheffield
Sheffield - London STP
London eus - Fort william
Inverness - London
London - Plymouth

.. it was a rather busy 3 days, but even after showing the person all these tickets she was unfortunately having one of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At night and weekend there are probably more fare evaders who are likely to cause trouble so the RPIs will go for the easy hit, the hapless passenger who makes a fairly innocent mistake. Rather like the 'mistake' of saying that the passenger made a journey on EMT when he clearly didn't!

OK maybe there should be a more clear message about the consequences of not having bought a ticket at the station but to be honest there are so many mixed messages coming from the railway then it is hardly surprising that people don't realise the rules. That is why when a passenger offers to pay then they should be allowed to do so. If they get shifty and try and make up some story then fine take them to the cleaners.

Another issue is that is it right that passengers should have to wait 15 to 20 minutes to buy a ticket when they can usually buy it on the train (with Northern)

It's all well and good having a hard line approach but when the railway can be effectively free at certain times of day then there is a lack of consistency.

exactly, why should someone have to wait for 20 mins if they can buy the same ticket on board, i even would have paid for a non discounted ticket on board just to avoid queing

Also, (for the record,) i did not act shifty of come up with some story, i even had the money in my hand ready to give to the guard, and the RPI officer, Hardly your typical fare dodger :P considdering too i had about £600 worth of VALID tikets on me

 

[Old Timer]

At night and weekend there are probably more fare evaders who are likely to cause trouble so the RPIs will go for the easy hit, the hapless passenger who makes a fairly innocent mistake. Rather like the 'mistake' of saying that the passenger made a journey on EMT when he clearly didn't!

OK maybe there should be a more clear message about the consequences of not having bought a ticket at the station but to be honest there are so many mixed messages coming from the railway then it is hardly surprising that people don't realise the rules. That is why when a passenger offers to pay then they should be allowed to do so. If they get shifty and try and make up some story then fine take them to the cleaners.

Another issue is that is it right that passengers should have to wait 15 to 20 minutes to buy a ticket when they can usually buy it on the train (with Northern)

It's all well and good having a hard line approach but when the railway can be effectively free at certain times of day then there is a lack of consistency.

Yes I agree. It is all the fault of this ridiculous "Customer Service" attitude brought in by the people from the catering and retailing scene, who clearly have no idea that what they are proposing and implementing is in many cases contrary to both the Byelaws and the NRCOC.

Encouraging the purchase of tickets on board, even reduced rate tickets, for journeys which start at stations where ticket issuing facilities exist is akin to an encouragement to fare evasion, similar to giving a bank robber the keys to a bank safe. This is especially the case when there are inadequate and insufficient revnue protection checks on trains, and a less than willing support for Guards and RPIs who face abuse and worse at the hands of scrotes and ne'er do wells.

Only when we have true vertical integration, with no subsidy from Government, will TOCs take on board their duty to deal with revenue protection seriously enough and start to take firm action to recoup the many £ms that are lost each year.

Should any TOC wish to take advantage of OTs previous experience in revenue protection then I am available at a suitable rate to supply consultancy services, indeed as a bargain I will work on a percentage basis - how about THAT for a deal !

 

[PauloDavesi]

One point that seems to have been missed, EMT incorrectly claim he was traveling on one of their services, "On the Tuesday 6th December 2011. a person giving the name and above address was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst travelling on East Midland Trains services"

Not only is it very sloppy work by EMT, but as was previously stated EMT do not provide a service the simple defense is to reply pointing out that as he was NOT on an EMT service it is impossible for him to have committed the claimed offense. It should not be difficult to fine the Northern rail guard, who, if he is honest, will confirm an attempt was made to purchase a ticket, but due the the failure of the guard to have his ticket machine working, it was impossible to purchase the requested ticket.
This really does appear to be appalling customer service by EMT and Northern.
Surely it is the responsibility of the guard to ensure his ticket machine is working when he comes on duty?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This really does appear to be appalling customer service by EMT and Northern.
Surely it is the responsibility of the guard to ensure his ticket machine is working when he comes on duty?

Yes, but it isn't uncommon for them to 'die' during a day's service, and I don't think replacements can be given at short notice.

 

[PauloDavesi]

In that case it is even worse that a customer is been persecuted when he has made reasonable efforts to purchase a ticket.

the victim in this case is obviously a railway enthusiast and will continue using the railways, if this happened to a 'normal' customer for whom the railway is purely a means of transport, do you honestly think they would ever use the railway system again?

 

[Old Timer]

exactly, why should someone have to wait for 20 mins if they can buy the same ticket on board, i even would have paid for a non discounted ticket on board just to avoid queing

Also, (for the record,) i did not act shifty of come up with some story, i even had the money in my hand ready to give to the guard, and the RPI officer, Hardly your typical fare dodger :P considdering too i had about £600 worth of VALID tikets on me

I certainly did not intend you to think I was suggesting you were.

However some years of involvement with Revenue Protection within BR taught that one of the clasic ruses used by fare evaders is to travel without a ticket but to pay when challenged on the train or at the arrival station.

You yourself admit it was a last minute decision so I suspect that whatever length queue there was (define "huge queue" by the way and how you determined 20 minutes was the waiting time?) you would have been hard pressed to get a ticket. Are there no automatic ticket machines ?

It is unfortunate that you landed at a station where there were RPIs, however in fairness to them you have not been charged with any Offence, albeit you easily could have been facing an 1889 S5 charge, and they have given you the benefit of the doubt by giving you the opportunity to explain the circumstances.

Things have moved on since BR days because as forecast, the open station system leaves the whole Railway wide open to fare evasion and abuse by those who will do their utmost to avoid paying if at all possible. It is for that reason that Compulsory Ticket Areas and Penalty Fares were implemented.

It is unfortunate that circumstances conspired if you like, to present you at Meadowhall as they did, but South and West Yorkshire, in common with other urban areas, does have a fare evasion problem and on that basis I am sure you will understand why the RPIs responded as they did.

In that case it is even worse that a customer is been persecuted when he has made reasonable efforts to purchase a ticket.

the victim in this case is obviously a railway enthusiast and will continue using the railways, if this happened to a 'normal' customer for whom the railway is purely a means of transport, do you honestly think they would ever use the railway system again?

Fare evasion is a serious issue on the Railways and the classic fare evasion ruse depends upon playing on the boundaries of the rules. At the end of the day the Conditions of Carriage state that it is for the passenger to ensure they have a valid ticket before they start their journey. We only have a subjective view as to the size and duration of the queue and the passenger himself admits that it was a last minute decision given he had a 40 minute wait between trains.

I find it hard to believe that there were no automatic ticket machines, however payment on the train is intended for stations which have no facilities not stations which have full ticket issuing facilities so there is no reason why the Guard should have been expecting anypone to turn up without a ticket from Sheffield.

Matters may be unfair but then so is the fact that you will get a fine and points for being just 5 mph over the 30 mph limit in the middle of the night when the same penalty would apply to someone doing 10mph over the limit outside a school at going home time.

 

[Max]

However some years of involvement with Revenue Protection within BR taught that one of the clasic ruses used by fare evaders is to travel without a ticket but to pay when challenged on the train or at the arrival station.

I'd say that's a fair point, but not applicable in this case as the OP sought the guard straight away to buy a ticket! That doesn't demonstrate any intent to evade.

 

[Norman]

I have a couple of points to make.

From the EMT Penalty Fares FAQ:

"What Penalty Fare arrangements do East Midlands Trains have with other train operators?
East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect have reciprocal arrangements, both Penalty Fare schemes operate in conjunction with each other. Details of stations where other train operating companies schemes apply are available from our Customer Relations Team on 08457 125 678."

- If the OP was not on an EMT service then why are EMT getting involved? The only other perator who EMT work with are FCC so surely they are admitting they have no interest in this instance?

"What should I do if I have a problem buying my ticket before boarding the train?
It is your responsibility to leave enough time to buy your ticket. The most convenient way to guarantee your ticket is to purchase it online in advance at eastmidlandstrains.co.uk. You must buy a ticket before you board the train. If you do not, and you are making a journey that is covered by the Penalty Fare scheme, you may be liable for a Penalty Fare.

If you are unable to purchase your ticket online, the following options are available for purchasing tickets at a station:

Ticket Vending Machines – these will accept cash and most major credit/debit cards
At the station Ticket Office.
If neither of these options are available at the station (this may be because it is not possible to purchase the type of ticket you require i.e. a concession ticket from a Ticket Vending Machine or because it is out of order and the station Ticket Office is closed) and you do not have a pre-booked ticket, you should approach a member of on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible.

If you are at a station where there are no Ticket Vending Machines and no Ticket Office you should use a Permit to Travel machine. This allows you to pay towards your ticket value with whatever money you have available. You will then need to approach a member of the on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible and within two hours. The value of your Permit to Travel ticket will be deducted from the ticket purchased on-board.

If the Permit to Travel machine is not in use, you must approach a member of on-board staff at the earliest possible opportunity."[/I]

- Could it not be argued that neither of these were available. The OP indicates that the TVMs were not working and that there was a queue of 15-20 minutes at the Ticket Office; is this not a reasonable reason for not buying a ticket. I suppose the OP needs the guard he tried to buy his ticket from to corroborate his story.

 

[yorkie]

I remember having about a 4 min connection from the Crosscountry train, to the Northern one, so not long, and well, i would say a good 15 / 20 min que, and they had the fast ticket machines, but only one of them was working, and there was a massive que there to.

If you want it to be treated as a "connection" as part of a longer journey then arguably the ticket would need to be requested at York or on the train to Sheffield. However this makes absolutely no sense as in reality you'd probably change at Doncaster to get to Meadowhall, also the reason given as "clearing the line" makes no sense either as your train had already passed through Meadowhall so you had already cleared that bit of line!

In that case it is even worse that a customer is been persecuted when he has made reasonable efforts to purchase a ticket.

the victim in this case is obviously a railway enthusiast and will continue using the railways, if this happened to a 'normal' customer for whom the railway is purely a means of transport, do you honestly think they would ever use the railway system again?

EMT have been known to be openly rude and obstructive to customers at some of their ticket offices and on board some of their trains. Some of their staff get angry when customers attempt to buy or use tickets that comply with Condition 19 of the NRCoC. If questioned, some of them will come out with comments like "don't tell me how to do my job". No, I've not personally experienced any of this myself but several people I know have (and most of it does not get put on this forum but is sent to me via PM or told verbally in person).

I don't think it bothers Stagecoach if people are put off travelling by train. What will they do instead? Go by bus/coach?

 

[ainsworth74]

However this makes absolutely no sense as in reality you'd probably change at Doncaster to get to Meadowhall, also the reason given as "clearing the line" makes no sense either as your train had already passed through Meadowhall so you had already cleared that bit of line!

I was puzzling over this as well seeing that everything that goes to Sheffield from Leeds/York/Doncaster goes through Meadowhall pretty much the only way to get to Sheffield without going through Meadowhall is to go out to Manchester or Retford!

 

[mralexn]

I have a couple of points to make.

From the EMT Penalty Fares FAQ:

"What Penalty Fare arrangements do East Midlands Trains have with other train operators?
East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect have reciprocal arrangements, both Penalty Fare schemes operate in conjunction with each other. Details of stations where other train operating companies schemes apply are available from our Customer Relations Team on 08457 125 678."

- If the OP was not on an EMT service then why are EMT getting involved? The only other perator who EMT work with are FCC so surely they are admitting they have no interest in this instance?

"What should I do if I have a problem buying my ticket before boarding the train?
It is your responsibility to leave enough time to buy your ticket. The most convenient way to guarantee your ticket is to purchase it online in advance at eastmidlandstrains.co.uk. You must buy a ticket before you board the train. If you do not, and you are making a journey that is covered by the Penalty Fare scheme, you may be liable for a Penalty Fare.

If you are unable to purchase your ticket online, the following options are available for purchasing tickets at a station:

Ticket Vending Machines – these will accept cash and most major credit/debit cards
At the station Ticket Office.
If neither of these options are available at the station (this may be because it is not possible to purchase the type of ticket you require i.e. a concession ticket from a Ticket Vending Machine or because it is out of order and the station Ticket Office is closed) and you do not have a pre-booked ticket, you should approach a member of on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible.

If you are at a station where there are no Ticket Vending Machines and no Ticket Office you should use a Permit to Travel machine. This allows you to pay towards your ticket value with whatever money you have available. You will then need to approach a member of the on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible and within two hours. The value of your Permit to Travel ticket will be deducted from the ticket purchased on-board.

If the Permit to Travel machine is not in use, you must approach a member of on-board staff at the earliest possible opportunity."[/I]

- Could it not be argued that neither of these were available. The OP indicates that the TVMs were not working and that there was a queue of 15-20 minutes at the Ticket Office; is this not a reasonable reason for not buying a ticket. I suppose the OP needs the guard he tried to buy his ticket from to corroborate his story.

there were 3 machines under the dep boards at sheffield, 1 of them was working and there was a massive que
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want it to be treated as a "connection" as part of a longer journey then arguably the ticket would need to be requested at York or on the train to Sheffield. However this makes absolutely no sense as in reality you'd probably change at Doncaster to get to Meadowhall, also the reason given as "clearing the line" makes no sense either as your train had already passed through Meadowhall so you had already cleared that bit of line!

EMT have been known to be openly rude and obstructive to customers at some of their ticket offices and on board some of their trains. Some of their staff get angry when customers attempt to buy or use tickets that comply with Condition 19 of the NRCoC. If questioned, some of them will come out with comments like "don't tell me how to do my job". No, I've not personally experienced any of this myself but several people I know have (and most of it does not get put on this forum but is sent to me via PM or told verbally in person).

I don't think it bothers Stagecoach if people are put off travelling by train. What will they do instead? Go by bus/coach?

well, bash a northern service then :P , and say ive "been" to Meadowhall,

 

[Old Timer]

I'd say that's a fair point, but not applicable in this case as the OP sought the guard straight away to buy a ticket! That doesn't demonstrate any intent to evade.

Which is why the RPIs have reported the matter but not as a S5 I would anticipate.

 

[mralexn]

I was puzzling over this as well seeing that everything that goes to Sheffield from Leeds/York/Doncaster goes through Meadowhall pretty much the only way to get to Sheffield without going through Meadowhall is to go out to Manchester or Retford!

this was my first visit to sheffield.. after looking at a map, i actually noticed the massive error of my ways :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is why the RPIs have reported the matter but not as a S5 I would anticipate.

what is an S5?

 

[the sniper]

Unfortunately for some reason the RPI fail to be visible at night or at weekends from what I understand which somewhat detracts from an otherwise very good approach to catching out the thieves who use the system.

I don't blame LM for not putting the RPIs out late at night as I think they'd just face too much risk of physical conflict. I don't get why the barrier staff at New Street are sent home so early though (7 or 8 pm?).

Same shift pattern as BTP use then?

Ho ho ho.

It is unfortunate that you landed at a station where there were RPIs, however in fairness to them you have not been charged with any Offence, albeit you easily could have been facing an 1889 S5 charge, and they have given you the benefit of the doubt by giving you the opportunity to explain the circumstances.

It'd be Railway Byelaw 18 if it wasn't a compulsory ticket area. It wouldn't be RRA '89 as he was willing to pay and provided a correct address. Going on what has been told here, you couldn't really prove intent either for (3)(a). S.18 under the byelaws is clear cut.

what is an S5?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

 

[ainsworth74]

this was my first visit to sheffield.. after looking at a map, i actually noticed the massive error of my ways

Ahh understandable, but it does seem to have cost you in this case

what is an S5?

OT means Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which you can find here.

 

[Old Timer]

I don't blame LM for not putting the RPIs out late at night as I think they'd just face too much risk of physical conflict. I don't get why the barrier staff at New Street are sent home so early though (7 or 8 pm?).


It'd be Railway Byelaw 18 if it wasn't a compulsory ticket area. It wouldn't be RRA '89 as he was willing to pay and provided a correct address. Going on what has been told here, you couldn't really prove intent either for (3)(a). S.18 under the byelaws is clear cut.

There is the need for RPIs to be supported by the BT Police out of hours in the UK I would agree.


With regards to your last but one point, the right (or maybe the wrong question) and the wrong answer could well elicit a S5 because intent could be proven by the reply given. A S5 can still be proven if the Inspector can demonstrate that intent was there, even when the fare was offered.

 

[the sniper]

With regards to your last but one point, the right (or maybe the wrong question) and the wrong answer could well elicit a S5 because intent could be proven by the reply given. A S5 can still be proven if the Inspector can demonstrate that intent was there, even when the fare was offered.

Indeed, you're right. I should have stressed that more heavily than I did in my post.

 

[Old Timer]

Indeed, you're right. I should have stressed that more heavily than I did in my post.

No worries I knew hat you meant.

 

[mralexn]

So does anyone know what the likely outcome from this will be?

Getting very very stressed over this and well, i actually want a career on the railway, and do not want it messed up over £1.30 :/

 

[swt_passenger]

I have a couple of points to make.

From the EMT Penalty Fares FAQ:

(snipped)

Problem is though, this isn't a penalty fare issue, as the station is not a penalty fares station, and Northern's service was not a penalty fare service.

These points have been made much earlier in this thread as well...

 

[TUC]

Whilst recognising that the law governing prosecution is a separate matter to the Conditions of Carriage, it could be argued that the Conditions implicitly allow a passenger to purchase a ticket on the train. Condition 2 states;

'Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms'.

There is no cross-reference to even the potential for prosecution. Effectively it simply states that if you travel without a ticket you will have to purchase one at the full single fare and in practice that is what happens day in, day out on the rail network. In particular I have seen plenty of occeasions on the east coast and trans pennine lines when passengers have simply asked for the relevant ticket from staff and been sold it without question. No one has even suggested they have tried to evade the fare.They have simply treated it as an alternative, more expensive way of buying the ticket. Indeed if one is travelling at peak periods and only wants a single ticket there is no financial incentive to purchase it in advance. That is very different to an intention to evade payment.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So does anyone know what the likely outcome from this will be?

Yes.
I've sent you a PM - perhaps you'll allow me to assist you?

I can see why you may be feeling confused while others on here are raising additional considerations and suggestions without a clear picture of which of these apply to your situation and which do not.

There have been some helpful posts on this thread, and some interesting observations, but not all of them apply to EMT's the Investigation into mralexn.

 

[34D]

the only tickets for that day i had on me were, well... (brace yourself)
Advance First Singles for..

Kings X - York
York - Sheffield
Sheffield - London STP

Could you advise the precise wording on these three first advances please?

 

[yorkie]

So does anyone know what the likely outcome from this will be?

Unfortunately we are being drip-fed information, but you did not answer my questions earlier therefore I am still unable to assist. I do not know if you have sent a letter or not (that is what you obviously need to do), I do not know if you are asking for advice on drafting a letter, or if you want us to proof read a letter, or if you have sent a letter and are asking us what they are likely to do having read your letter. If you have sent a letter, then without knowing what it says it is difficult to comment.

However if you wrote in your letter that you travelled from York to London with a 40 minute break at Sheffield, enclosed all tickets and stated that to kill time you went to Meadowhall and back, then if I was the person reading that letter I'd think you're crazy (especially if you said you were doing it to bash the line!) but harmless and let you off.

Getting very very stressed over this and well, i actually want a career on the railway, and do not want it messed up over £1.30 :/

But if you had read previous threads, and the posts in this thread, you will realise that it is highly unlikely that you could be prosecuted for intent to evade the fare under the Regulation of Railways (1889) act, and therefore it is highly unlikely that you could receive a Criminal Record that would appear on CRB checks.

The worst outcome that I could envisage, based on the limited, confusing, drip-fed information on this thread, is a prosecution under the byelaws, which would not be a recordable offence, and even if they did declare intent to prosecute you could offer to settle out of court (see the numerous other threads discussing similar issues on this forum - some are more applicable than others).