Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[Sunbird24]

My understanding of the delay to delivery of the class 88 is that they have not yet been given approval to run on the UK railways.

 

[Domh245]

Didn't the 92s have two pantographs?

They do, although I think that is more a legacy of the 92 effectively being 2 locomotives in one bodyshell due to the Channel Tunnel Restrictions

 

[Rhydgaled]

All the BR AC Electric locos only had 1 pantograph. Possibly some of the early ones had 2 but if so they were soon modified to 1. I think there is at least 1 class 91 with 2 pans but this is the exception rather than the the rule.

All the class 91s were built with a single pantograph. One class 91 (91114 I seem to recall) was fitted with a second pantograph (in East Coast days I think, so quite recently) as a prototype to eliminate a single-point failure.

 

[DJH1971]

All the class 91s were built with a single pantograph. One class 91 (91114 I seem to recall) was fitted with a second pantograph (in East Coast days I think, so quite recently) as a prototype to eliminate a single-point failure.

Classes 81-85 (AL1-AL5) were all built with 2 pantographs, but one was later removed on all of these.

Class 86 (AL6), 87 & 90 were all built with just one.

 

[JonathanP]

Sorry, I've clearly spent too much time in Germany and forgotten what UK locos are like

The odd thing is, the use of dual pantographs seems to be taken very seriously here, it's not just a spare. Whenever the loco direction is changed, the pantograph is swapped. Shunt moves like run rounds are usually done with both pantographs up. Just another of those things that are considered essential in one country and unnecessary in another I guess, like yellow painted front ends, lineside fences, inter-multiple unit corridor connections, cab wing mirrors, wheel tappers etc.

 

[Harbornite]

Classes 81-85 (AL1-AL5) were all built with 2 pantographs, but one was later removed on all of these.

Class 86 (AL6), 87 & 90 were all built with just one.

I was under the impression that one or more class 91s have also received an additional pantograph.

 

[Harbornite]

Sorry, I've clearly spent too much time in Germany and forgotten what UK locos are like

The odd thing is, the use of dual pantographs seems to be taken very seriously here, it's not just a spare. Whenever the loco direction is changed, the pantograph is swapped. Shunt moves like run rounds are usually done with both pantographs up. Just another of those things that are considered essential in one country and unnecessary in another I guess, like yellow painted front ends, lineside fences, inter-multiple unit corridor connections, cab wing mirrors, wheel tappers etc.

There's a greater need for multiple pantographs on the continent, where international freight trains are common and locos need to operate on different voltages, but this is obvious.

 

[D1009]

My memory of the Manchester Sheffield electric locos was that they had both pantographs in use at all times. I always wondered why this was.

 

[Sunbird24]

Different rules for different power supplies, UK is mostly 25Kv AC nowadays; Manchester Sheffield was 1500 V DC; Continental railways have a number of different supplies, Spanish class 252 have both 25 Kv AC and 3000 V DC and 4 locos also have 1.5 Kv DC; some locos in Europe have 4 different voltages for cross-border working. DC uses a lot more current than AC, hence different pantograph designs in the past.

 

[furnessvale]

My memory of the Manchester Sheffield electric locos was that they had both pantographs in use at all times. I always wondered why this was.

Very common with (compared to AC) low voltage DC systems all over the world.

The current draw is such that a single pantograph losing contact with the wire would result in spectacular arcing. A second panto helps to remove that problem.

 

[Sunbird24]

Word is that the "technical issues" which were holding up the approval to run on UK railways have now been resolved and deliveries are expected to commence in November.
Today 88002, 88007, No 8 and another unliveried one were visible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
88001 at Velim starts a 1500ton load in diesel mode.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=...C5EC!7469&parId=8C806B14A9C6C5EC!6931&o=OneUp

In another developement there are 3 cargo ships at Sagunto anchorage awaiting loads?

 

[leomartin125]

Word is that the "technical issues" which were holding up the approval to run on UK railways have now been resolved and deliveries are expected to commence in November.
Today 88002, 88007, No 8 and another unliveried one were visible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
88001 at Velim starts a 1500ton load in diesel mode.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=...C5EC!7469&parId=8C806B14A9C6C5EC!6931&o=OneUp

In another developement there are 3 cargo ships at Sagunto anchorage awaiting loads?

Superb video! How do you manage to capture movements inside Velim? Sounds great, maybe not as good as the 68's but they are bi mode so it makes up for it. Where is Sagunto Anchorage?

 

[Sunbird24]

Superb video! How do you manage to capture movements inside Velim? Sounds great, maybe not as good as the 68's but they are bi mode so it makes up for it. Where is Sagunto Anchorage?

Not my video but the link was posted elsewhere on the internet.
I would not expect a small engine to make quite the same noise as one 4 times its size!
Sagunto anchorage is a few kilometres south-east of Sagunto port where many of the 68s have been shipped from and is 12 kms up the coast from the factory. Although the low-loaders still have to go into the city to turn on a large roundabout access to Sagunto Port is direct off the motorways north of the city while motorway access to Valencia port is best from the southern motorways. Access to Valencia port from the north can be difficult even by car due to heavy traffic and narrow streets with sharp bends.

 

[RobShipway]

Not my video but the link was posted elsewhere on the internet.
I would not expect a small engine to make quite the same noise as one 4 times its size!
Sagunto anchorage is a few kilometres south-east of Sagunto port where many of the 68s have been shipped from and is 12 kms up the coast from the factory. Although the low-loaders still have to go into the city to turn on a large roundabout access to Sagunto Port is direct off the motorways north of the city while motorway access to Valencia port is best from the southern motorways. Access to Valencia port from the north can be difficult even by car due to heavy traffic and narrow streets with sharp bends.

The class 88 looks to perform well even with a small diesel power unit.

 

[CosherB]

The class 88 looks to perform well even with a small diesel power unit.

It looks exactly how a 950 bhp diesel engine would perform on such a load, in dry warm conditions, on a flat track, at low speed.

 

[ac6000cw]

It looks exactly how a 950 bhp diesel engine would perform on such a load, in dry warm conditions, on a flat track, at low speed.

Agreed.

Engine power isn't so important at very low speeds - starting tractive effort is generally adhesion limited. With a low power engine you will reach the 'constant power' part of the tractive effort curve at a much lower speed compared to a 68 (so for a given load/rolling resistance/gradient, a lower balancing speed and lower acceleration at higher speeds).

 

[Sunbird24]

Although Velim is a fairly flat circuit it has a small loop with hilly terrain and at one point the line rises 20 metres over a distance of 700 metres on a curve so a gradient of around 1:35. This is sufficient for all kinds of testing and remember the loco was there for about 3 months in all kinds of weather from winter snows to summer sunshine. So the testing would have covered all kinds of conditions and weather with all kinds of loads. No doubt full analysis has now taken place and they have a good idea of its capabilities under various conditions.
Normal load used to be based on 1 ton per HP but that figure with modern locos is closer to 1.25 tons per HP. Testing with 1500 tons is above that limit.
BTW 88005, 88007 & a plain blue one were visible yesterday.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . I think there is at least 1 class 91 with 2 pans but this is the exception rather than the the rule.

All the class 91s were built with a single pantograph. One class 91 (91114 I seem to recall) was fitted with a second pantograph (in East Coast days I think, so quite recently) as a prototype to eliminate a single-point failure.

It was an experiment, and the second pantograph was subsequently removed. While it was fitted, its location required the cab doors at 'the blunt end' to remain out of use, which resulted in that locomotive having a slightly reduced capability rather than an increased resilience.

 

[Harbornite]

88007 at Valencia...

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/789462682286059520/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

[Techniquest]

It's surprisingly noisy for such a small engine, although now I'd like to hear how it sounds on AC power. Ooh that reminds me of a trip I have yet to plan and the hashtag I plan to use...

Bring on the 88s, we've been waiting a long time for these. I've only started to follow this thread, so I hope I've not missed any interesting news on them. I'll be looking out carefully for any news on a convoy of them that's for sure...

 

[rebmcr]

88007 at Valencia...

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/789462682286059520/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Are the tall bogies to make it shuntable on Iberian Gauge?

 

[59CosG95]

Are the tall bogies to make it shuntable on Iberian Gauge?

Yes, they're only factory accommodation bogies, so they'd have their standard gauge ones fitted before removal by road.

 

[class ep-09]

On Friday afternoon I saw one of the class 88 locos in DRS livery being hauled on flat bed , on A1 Autovia (motorway) going suothbound towards Madrit from direction of Burgos. I wonder why it was there . I may be the one , which is in Valencia now.
I did overtake it at speed going in this same direction. The lorry, with loco on it, was going very slowly uphill so I had no time to see the loco number.

 

[59CosG95]

On Friday afternoon I saw one of the class 88 locos in DRS livery being hauled on flat bed , on A1 Autovia (motorway) going suothbound towards Madrit from direction of Burgos. I wonder why it was there . I may be the one , which is in Valencia now.
I did overtake it at speed going in this same direction. The lorry, with loco on it, was going very slowly uphill so I had no time to see the loco number.

Given its location and direction of travel, it may have been either 88001 returning from the Velim test track (if it was in plain blue) or 88003 returning from Germany (if it had the full DRS livery).

 

[superkev]

I'm sure that the class 88 will be successful but perhaps something with a bit more oomph could be next. How about a co co with an ex hst 2250hp engine. Class 89 with an engine!!
K

 

[Harbornite]

I'm sure that the class 88 will be successful but perhaps something with a bit more oomph could be next. How about a co co with an ex hst 2250hp engine. Class 89 with an engine!!
K

Awful idea. Why would the owners of 89001 want to butcher it and why would you want a tired old HST engine?

 

[CosherB]

I'm sure that the class 88 will be successful but perhaps something with a bit more oomph could be next. How about a co co with an ex hst 2250hp engine. Class 89 with an engine!!
K

Despite the fact that Stadler are developing such a locomotive (i.e. a genuine bi-mode item, not just a 'last mile' diesel), what exactly would you do with them in the UK?

http://railcolornews.com/2016/10/08/eu-stadler-rail-valencia-first-locomotive-design-under-swiss-responsibility-under-development/

 

[Rhydgaled]

Despite the fact that Stadler are developing such a locomotive (i.e. a genuine bi-mode item, not just a 'last mile' diesel), what exactly would you do with them in the UK?

I'm assuming Stadler's design isn't intended for the UK loading guage, but if we pretend for a moment that somebody could produce a genuine bi-mode loco for the UK I would suggest it could be used for:

• Replacing the 68s on TPE's mrk5 sets when the TPE core is wired to allow continued running to Middlesbrough and Scarborough (although presumably TPE plan to swap the 802s onto those routes at that point)
• Swansea - Manchester, Y Gerallt Gymro and the N.Wales-MAN loco-hauled workings after GWML electrification

and, if it could do 125mph on electric power, it could form the new stock for MML electrification (allowing the extensions to Lincoln, Melton Mowbray etc. to continue), although better yet they would use them on Paddington-Penzance or Kings Cross - Aberdeen/Inverness to cascade 802s and/or 800s to the MML (because the MML would require far less off-wire running).

 

[Sunbird24]

Yes, they're only factory accommodation bogies, so they'd have their standard gauge ones fitted before removal by road.

Possibly, but the factory do have multi-gauge lines which include Iberian, standard and metre gauges. 88008 is on the same line behind it on its normal bogies (it's buffers can just be seen at the extreme left of the picture) and the train on the adjacent track is a Sheffield tram, also standard gauge. The French locos use the same tracks and they are standard gauge also. Perhaps there is some other obscure reason. Normally only the 3' 6" South African locos use accommodation sleds under the standard wheels which only raise it a few inches higher.
The photographer was definitely on Heineken that day, the picture is taken from inside the factory looking out towards the road and the tram is almost completely blocking the view from the road at that time.

 

[WatcherZero]

Quick access for tweaking during testing? It also didn't have the lower side panels on.