Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[bramling]

I can see why usage has fallen, as I found the service too infrequent and the bus network a lot better. Of course I had to try it out for nostalgia, but it's not really something (as it stands) that I can see being that popular.

When it's busy with tourists, locals must hate it even more.

I think that with loads of investment (which I know isn't going to happen) there has to be scope to improve the service, which would improve usage. It has worked in many other cases, and is also the case for most new roads.

It's not as if IoW has a tiny population, and people still live and work there out of season. We're all getting older, so public transport seems likely to survive better than a lot of other towns and cities that have terrible provision a lot of the time.

I guess we have to wait and see what SWR suggests. Perhaps we'll be genuinely surprised. Or not.

I suspect another issue is something which a lot of preserved railways find - they can have some very busy trips in the middle of the day, but after about 1500 things die off very heavily. It's not like the line can even really offer a scenic experience - travelling on a semi-comfortable and extremely rough-riding ex Tube train is something of a niche market.

Don't forget, the infrastructure as it stands is geared up for a 20-minute service. This was presumably scaled back because the sums didn't add up. I can't really see a half-hourly service really making that much difference - locals presumably know the times anyway (and it's not like anyone on the island is really in a great hurry to get anywhere), whilst non-locals would probably just wait once they've got as far as getting to the platform.

If they wanted to cut costs, a 4-car train every hour would save a crew, but could drive down demand further.

My money's on status quo. Keeping the 38 stock going is always going to be the simplest option, even if getting parts becomes increasingly difficult / expensive. For what it's worth they are lovely trains, so long may they continue! They came close to 50 years on the Northern Line, will they manage 50 years in their second life? Time will tell, but it could be worth a small wager.

 

[Chris125]

Sadly I just don't think the two can compare. The Island Line has been in continual decline over the last few decades - compare today with scenes from 30+ years ago when summer Saturdays had multiple long trains running. Even in the last decade 4-car trains have gone from being common all week right through summer to being rare if at all. This says it all sadly.

Operational issues rather than lack of demand would seem to explain the lack of 4-car sets - despite standing room on trains for much of the summer I don't think they ran a single one. As they only appear to have one operational spare now and guards can only change carriages when stationary I can see why they'd be keen to avoid them however.

As for the situation 30+ years ago, it's the same as many other seaside resorts - those huge summer saturday crowds requiring extra trains and infrastructure for a few days a year have gone. However the basic service for much of the year was hourly IIRC, whereas it's now a consistent half-hourly service.

503s had a slightly lower roofline than the PEPs, but since that proposal the track has been raised in Ryde tunnel to reduce the frequency of flooding stopping the job in any case.

The track was raised during electrification, presumably a consequence of the new drainage installed under the track - long before the 503s were proposed in the 80s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the pier structure for the railway side is as bad as mentioned in post #70, then could the Island Line be cut back to Ryde St Johns?

If it can't then could the cost of repairs and dealing with the corrosion end up with the whole Island Line closing? I believe that the Southern Vectis bus route 3 covers all Island Line stops except for Smallbrook Junction.

Would a Optare Solo be too heavy for the road side of the pier?

 

[yorksrob]

I think to try and argue that the route isn't viable because usage has declined since the 1950's, when every surviving seaside railway no longer sees the crowds of the 1950's, is a bit silly.

Yes, the line might lose money, but it is a classic social railway, assisting a comparatively deprived area cope with seasonal demand for travel. Surely tacking an order onto an upcoming tube order for new stock (as was done with the Waterloo and City line a couple of decades ago) is the most sensible option.

 

[bramling]

I think to try and argue that the route isn't viable because usage has declined since the 1950's, when every surviving seaside railway no longer sees the crowds of the 1950's, is a bit silly.

Yes, the line might lose money, but it is a classic social railway, assisting a comparatively deprived area cope with seasonal demand for travel. Surely tacking an order onto an upcoming tube order for new stock (as was done with the Waterloo and City line a couple of decades ago) is the most sensible option.

I never said the route wasn't viable because usage has declined. It was never economically viable even when the Standard stock started, and is presumably less so now, despite the infrastructure having been gradually whittled back and the train fleet being a fraction of what it once was.

It's all very well proposing options for tacking onto LU fleets that haven't even been specified yet, but someone has to decide to pay. At the moment no one seems willing to pay even to keep the whole of the current fleet running.

 

[Kite159]

All this talk about the Island Line reminds me that I still need to get 483009 for haulage, assuming that is still running. Maybe a trip for Sunday depending on the weather.

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The Island Line is a good experience, but isn't at the heart of the Island

 

[swt_passenger]

If the pier structure for the railway side is as bad as mentioned in post #70, then could the Island Line be cut back to Ryde St Johns?

If it can't then could the cost of repairs and dealing with the corrosion end up with the whole Island Line closing? I believe that the Southern Vectis bus route 3 covers all Island Line stops except for Smallbrook Junction.

Would a Optare Solo be too heavy for the road side of the pier?

As a point of detail, the road and rail piers are completely separate structures, built at different times by different methods, so there is no concept of 'rail or road sides'. I don't have an opinion on the state of the structure, other than it is unlikely to be that good given its location. The 'road' pier opened 1814, the (disused) tram pier in 1864, and the rail pier in 1880. The tram pier was strong enough to take a temporary pedestrian deck while the road pier was overhauled a few years ago.

 

[A0wen]

If the pier structure for the railway side is as bad as mentioned in post #70, then could the Island Line be cut back to Ryde St Johns?

If it can't then could the cost of repairs and dealing with the corrosion end up with the whole Island Line closing? I believe that the Southern Vectis bus route 3 covers all Island Line stops except for Smallbrook Junction.

Would a Optare Solo be too heavy for the road side of the pier?

St Johns' is not located anywhere particularly convenient - it's on the edge of town away from the town centre. Esplanade's better for the town centre and both fast cat and hovercraft.

I'm sure some years back SVOC used to run a minibus (Iveco type) to the pier head and back, so a small Solo or similar would probably be OK.

 

[swt_passenger]

St Johns' is not located anywhere particularly convenient - it's on the edge of town away from the town centre. Esplanade's better for the town centre and both fast cat and hovercraft.

I'm sure some years back SVOC used to run a minibus (Iveco type) to the pier head and back, so a small Solo or similar would probably be OK.

It may not have been permitted since the last repairs.

Signage at the entrance strongly suggests access is now only for motorbikes, cars and light vans, with a 2.2m height limit, and a 10 mph speed limit enforced by cameras.

If taken as seen on (Google street view) that probably rules out any minibus upwards...

 

[Chris M]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the London Dockland Light Railway is receiving new, replacement stock. Would some of the old stock be suitable for the island line ?
Gauge ?
Vehicle dimensions ?

IIRC there are no significant gauging issues - what tram/light rail designs like the DLR fleet would struggle with is the quality of the track.

If a D stock wont fit through the tunnel, I would be very surprised if a DLR unit would. Values from Wikipedia:

			Height	Length	Width	Floor height
1938 stock DM		2.883 m	15.94 m	2.597 m	0.6 m
D stock DM		3.740 m	14.94 m	3.740 m	0.975 m
DLR B90/B92/B2K stock	3.51 m	28.8 m*	2.65 m	1.03 m

Note the DLR stock is articulated, so it its length is circa 14.4 metres for some purposes, but it's not fully flexible there. Note also the different widths and particularly floor height (43cm is a *big* step). Furthermore the profile is a lot squarer than than that of most (all?) other passenger rolling stock in the UK.
Finally, they would need work to convert them to use standard third rail (currently they use bottom-contact) and to give them driving cabs with controls suitable for normal use (the existing ones are not the most ergonomic for starters).

Low Cost automated operation with minimal staff ?

It would reduce the number of staff required on the train by 1, but increase the number of staff required in the control room. You would also have to spend a very significant amount of money installing the ATO system in the first place. The DLR system is also incompatible with level crossings (I don't know if there are any) and you would need to spend money on converting either the track or the trains to the same electrification system (no idea which would be cheaper) and raising the platform heights.
It's also worth looking into why they are being withdrawn - they are life expired and are becoming increasingly costly to maintain.

All in all the DLR trains, even if the trains do fit (which I think is unlikely) are unlikely to offer a low-cost solution, or even a solution that is good value for money.

 

[Clip]

It would reduce the number of staff required on the train by 1, but increase the number of staff required in the control room. You would also have to spend a very significant amount of money installing the ATO system in the first place. The DLR system is also incompatible with level crossings (I don't know if there are any).

Theyre not incompatible with them at all - they work just the same as they do on mainline railways. indeed there is one on the entrance to beckton depot - though trains are manually driven through there and its not really open to the public

 

[Chris125]

If the pier structure for the railway side is as bad as mentioned in post #70, then could the Island Line be cut back to Ryde St Johns?

I think £8m was mentioned a few years back as being required in the coming years but who knows how accurate that figure is, Chris Garnett's Island Line report said that "in discussion with NR it appears that work was undertaken on the Pier around 3 years ago. This work involved strengthening the deck of the Pier. This needs to be clarified".

Ultimately it's up to Network Rail to keep the pier in a suitable condition for trains to run, they have and continue to spend money on it's maintenance and I see no reason to think that will change.

If it can't then could the cost of repairs and dealing with the corrosion end up with the whole Island Line closing? I believe that the Southern Vectis bus route 3 covers all Island Line stops except for Smallbrook Junction.

The bus is significantly slower and less reliable, more expensive and crucially can't use the pier to connect with the Catamaran so that really isn't a practical alternative.

The tram pier was strong enough to take a temporary pedestrian deck while the road pier was overhauled a few years ago.

Suffice to say they were very careful where they put any weight! It's in appalling condition.

 

[jon0844]

Are there plans to rebuild the pier at any time in the future, or just let it gradually collapse and then the railway is effectively finished there anyway?

 

[A0wen]

Are there plans to rebuild the pier at any time in the future, or just let it gradually collapse and then the railway is effectively finished there anyway?

Given the pier is the docking point for the fast-cat to Portsmouth, I would assume its ongoing maintenance is fairly critical for the Island.

The Fast Cat carries far more passengers than the hovercraft does and also docks at Portsmouth & Southsea station, which is more convenient than Southsea where the hovercraft docks.

The other links to the mainland are the car ferries from Fishbourne, Yarmouth and Cowes and the Fast Cat from Cowes to Southampton.

 

[Jimini]

The Fast Cat carries far more passengers than the hovercraft does and also docks at Portsmouth & Southsea station, which is more convenient than Southsea where the hovercraft docks.

It docks at Portsmouth Harbour, doesn't it?

 

[jon0844]

Given the pier is the docking point for the fast-cat to Portsmouth, I would assume its ongoing maintenance is fairly critical for the Island.

I'd have thought so too, and last time I was there it did seem like things were slowly falling to bits.

 

[bigfoote]

Pipedreaming here, but is it perhaps time to look at the "Solent tunnel" again?

More realistically, something more akin to a light rail/tram option may be more palatable to all concerned. Taking into consideration the cost involved in procuring suitable stock for this "unique" franchise, and the assorted work that would need to be done, could the line be converted into a tram system, still allowing use of the pier as a connection to FastCat and perhaps in time be extendable to other places on the island?

On that, have Southern Vectis ever been consulted around some form of integrated transport system?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pipedreaming here, but is it perhaps time to look at the "Solent tunnel" again?

More realistically, something more akin to a light rail/tram option may be more palatable to all concerned. Taking into consideration the cost involved in procuring suitable stock for this "unique" franchise, and the assorted work that would need to be done, could the line be converted into a tram system, still allowing use of the pier as a connection to FastCat and perhaps in time be extendable to other places on the island?

On that, have Southern Vectis ever been consulted around some form of integrated transport system?

I'm strongly opposed to a fixed-link solely for the reason of protecting the population of red squirrels on the IoW!

 

[BestWestern]

It docks at Portsmouth Harbour, doesn't it?

It does, yes. I suspect that's what he meant!

 

[trash80]

Unless there is some money for the Island Line i wonder what exactly they can do with it? You can understand why people get fed up with London & SE rail projects, the cost of sorting the Island Line with new stock (tacked onto the Northern Line reinforcement order for example) with some infrastructure improvements would be relative peanuts compared to Crossrail for example yet would leave the line viable for the next 30-40 years.

 

[Lockwood]

That's what I find funny, people complain about Oop Norf having ancient stock, yet the oldest stock on the NR network is in the London & South East area!

 

[Emblematic]

Given the pier is the docking point for the fast-cat to Portsmouth, I would assume its ongoing maintenance is fairly critical for the Island.

The Fast Cat carries far more passengers than the hovercraft does and also docks at Portsmouth & Southsea station, which is more convenient than Southsea where the hovercraft docks.

The other links to the mainland are the car ferries from Fishbourne, Yarmouth and Cowes and the Fast Cat from Cowes to Southampton.

As noted above, the railway, tramway and promenade/roadway piers were built separately and are independent structures - the railway is the other side of the (very) dilapidated tramway from the road. Closing the railway pier would not impact road access, although it would inconvenience some foot passengers as there's no other public transport along the pier. From the ferry perspective, providing a regular service along the pier would be the first priority, whether using the tramway, railway or a strengthened roadway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The bus is significantly slower and less reliable, more expensive and crucially can't use the pier to connect with the Catamaran so that really isn't a practical alternative.

Just had a quick a Southern Vectis site, for price unless it's for a one off return journey the bus is cheaper with a Freedom ticket and afaik it covers the whole Southern Vectis network (don't know about the Coaster or Breezer buses).

Does NR actually own the pier? Is the pier listed at all?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Nobody's suggested 442s or HSTs yet..... whatever is happening to these forums?!

Well personally I was thinking more about the Virgin Voyagers. After all, the Island line is quite curvy, so having some tilting stock ought to be quite good for allowing faster line-speeds...

 

[yorksrob]

I never said the route wasn't viable because usage has declined. It was never economically viable even when the Standard stock started, and is presumably less so now, despite the infrastructure having been gradually whittled back and the train fleet being a fraction of what it once was.

It's all very well proposing options for tacking onto LU fleets that haven't even been specified yet, but someone has to decide to pay. At the moment no one seems willing to pay even to keep the whole of the current fleet running.

Well, the big question mark over pacer replacement seemed to be whether the pacers were life expired. Assuming that the island line is considered socially necessary, I don't see how anyone could argue that the existing stock isn't life expired.

 

[3141]

Unless there is some money for the Island Line i wonder what exactly they can do with it? You can understand why people get fed up with London & SE rail projects, the cost of sorting the Island Line with new stock (tacked onto the Northern Line reinforcement order for example) with some infrastructure improvements would be relative peanuts compared to Crossrail for example yet would leave the line viable for the next 30-40 years.

It would mean the rolling stock would be OK for 30-40 years, but the real problem is the very high subsidy the line requires, and adding the cost of brand new stock would increae that.

 

[A0wen]

Well personally I was thinking more about the Virgin Voyagers. After all, the Island line is quite curvy, so having some tilting stock ought to be quite good for allowing faster line-speeds...

Nice one

Where's the 'like' button when you need it?

 

[A0wen]

It docks at Portsmouth Harbour, doesn't it?

Quite correct, mea culpa.

 

[A0wen]

As noted above, the railway, tramway and promenade/roadway piers were built separately and are independent structures - the railway is the other side of the (very) dilapidated tramway from the road. Closing the railway pier would not impact road access, although it would inconvenience some foot passengers as there's no other public transport along the pier. From the ferry perspective, providing a regular service along the pier would be the first priority, whether using the tramway, railway or a strengthened roadway.

I understand and am familiar with the pier - the point I'm making is the pier serves a use so in some form will survive unlike other piers around the UK .

 

[Chris M]

Is the pier listed at all?

All three structures are together listed at Grade II
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1239551