ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

hopefully running at 100mph for short spells instead of hours of 125mph will help. Wait and see.

The problems with GEC motors first manifest themselves as a power-to-earth fault at 110mph or above. Once known, the power car would be directed back to Landore for remedial attention before more erious damaged was caused. Of course with ScotRail having no experience of these motors and having no running above 100mph it remains to be seen how they will manage the problem. There may be some "big bangs" before they work it out...

 

[_toommm_]

What's MTIN? From the context I presume it's the mileage average between a major service being required or breakdown?

 

[sprinterguy]

What's MTIN? From the context I presume it's the mileage average between a major service being required or breakdown?

It's the average mileage across a given fleet between each Technical Incident (train fault) that causes a delay of three minutes or more.

 

[jingsmonty]

It could be, but there's a lot of factors involved, and I don't know enough about them to give you a very informed analysis.



Again, there's a lot of factors involved. Are conditions on the Highland Main Line anything like those you'd find in Devon and Cornwall? Are the speeds and gradients similar?

I can't really comment on the Devon & Cornwall lines, but I can vouch for the fact that, even on the steep gradients on the HML, full power isn't required for a lot of it - I tend to get up to line speed & notch back, which is a totally different way of driving than what we are used to. Usually, in a 158 or 170, it's full power & nowhere near line speed...

For example, most of the climb from Blair Atholl to Drumochter is at power notch 2/3 (with an occasional touch of 4) - notch 5 (full power) not really needed, once line speed reached (partly due to the lower speed of 60mph, most of the way up the hill - DMUs can do 70, although none actually can...). In fact, one of my colleagues on the training train a while ago, managed to climb this gradient at line speed on 1 power car (rear one wouldn't start at Perth)!

 

[BRX]

It sounds like a problem with one of the power cars might not necessarily lead to late running on the HML, whereas it almost certainly would on a fast GWR service?

 

[_toommm_]

It sounds like a problem with one of the power cars might not necessarily lead to late running on the HML, whereas it almost certainly would on a fast GWR service?

It wouldn't do with the current timetable, but if the timetable is tightened when (if) the service moves to a full HST fleet, then it may lose time with one powercar.

 

[AndrewE]

It wouldn't do with the current timetable, but if the timetable is tightened when (if) the service moves to a full HST fleet, then it may lose time with one powercar.

...unless there is still a bit of slack in it to allow for lengthening of the trains without needing another timetable further into the future.

 

[Chrism20]

I can't really comment on the Devon & Cornwall lines, but I can vouch for the fact that, even on the steep gradients on the HML, full power isn't required for a lot of it - I tend to get up to line speed & notch back, which is a totally different way of driving than what we are used to. Usually, in a 158 or 170, it's full power & nowhere near line speed...

For example, most of the climb from Blair Atholl to Drumochter is at power notch 2/3 (with an occasional touch of 4) - notch 5 (full power) not really needed, once line speed reached (partly due to the lower speed of 60mph, most of the way up the hill - DMUs can do 70, although none actually can...). In fact, one of my colleagues on the training train a while ago, managed to climb this gradient at line speed on 1 power car (rear one wouldn't start at Perth)!

Probably a silly question so excuse me if it is but will a couple of hundred people and their luggage down the back affect how you notch up/down compared to doing so on the empty training train.

I'm assuming 200 or so people and their luggage will add a bit of weight but will it make much of a difference?

 

[scotraildriver]

A fully loaded train is slower than an empty one. 12 - 15 passengers equates to approximately 1 tonne, so 500 people on a six car 170 makes a difference of 37ish tonnes, and is very noticeable on the climb out of Queen St.

 

[swaldman]

Having just got off 2.5 hours in a 170 with people standing for the first 1.5 of them... much as I dislike the GWR interiors, they can't come soon enough. It's true that it's impossible for a non-skinny person to use a laptop in British airline seats, but the same is true when standing, sitting in a luggage rack, etc.

 

[43096]

Next overhauled set fully formed up in Wabtec yard and has power cars attached. Can’t be far off delivery.

 

[InOban]

Excellent.

 

[najaB]

Next overhauled set fully formed up in Wabtec yard and has power cars attached. Can’t be far off delivery.

Sweet!

 

[mullac30]

Does anyone know if this set will be based in Inverness or Aberdeen?

 

[najaB]

No idea, but it would make sense for it it be based in Aberdeen - makes things a little simpler if they're both on the same route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

When i went past Wabtec yesterday there looked to be a lot of other complete coaches too, the impression is production rate is increasing. Could just be wishful thinking mind.

 

[Goldromans]

No idea, but it would make sense for it it be based in Aberdeen - makes things a little simpler if they're both on the same route.

But if there’s the possibility of a refurbished set working one of the Inverness HST diagrams from the December timetable, won’t it need to be based in Inverness so they can train staff there?

 

[najaB]

But if there’s the possibility of a refurbished set working one of the Inverness HST diagrams from the December timetable, won’t it need to be based in Inverness so they can train staff there?

Yes, that actually makes more sense!

 

[Tony43]

Again, there's a lot of factors involved. Are conditions on the Highland Main Line anything like those you'd find in Devon and Cornwall? Are the speeds and gradients similar?

AFAIK GWR HST s are banned from going west of Exeter on one powercar due to the devon banks of course that's with 7or 8 coaches so fair bit heavier

 

[chuff chuff]

The refurbished set (s) won't be going anywhere near Inverness,the depots on the east coast run are already pretty much trained on it so would make sense to keep it running Aberdeen to Edinburgh.

 

[gsnedders]

AFAIK GWR HST s are banned from going west of Exeter on one powercar due to the devon banks of course that's with 7or 8 coaches so fair bit heavier

The re-engined ones are allowed up the HML on a single power car with no more than 9 coaches (IIRC) given an unchecked run at both major inclines; pretty sure somewhere further back in this thread the exact restrictions are given. That said, it may well be considered impractical to give them an unchecked run in many cases…

 

[43096]

AFAIK GWR HST s are banned from going west of Exeter on one powercar due to the devon banks of course that's with 7or 8 coaches so fair bit heavier

If they are, it’s changed. The restriction was that a set on one was not to call at Totnes in the down direction.

 

[Tony43]

The re-engined ones are allowed up the HML on a single power car with no more than 9 coaches (IIRC) given an unchecked run at both major inclines; pretty sure somewhere further back in this thread the exact restrictions are given. That said, it may well be considered impractical to give them an unchecked run in many cases…

The problem in devon is that two of the climbs are just after major stations Dainton 2 miles past newton abbot at 1 in 36 and then rattery immediately after totnes at 1 in45 so guessing an unchecked run not practical

 

[Tony43]

If they are, it’s changed. The restriction was that a set on one was not to call at Totnes in the down direction.

I maybe wrong was told by a GWR driver that's lives next door to my mums that was a couple of years ago though. only last week one stalled on Hemerdon and had to be rescued although that may have been more to do with the bad weather

 

[Highland37]

Scotrail HSTs............

 

[najaB]

The re-engined ones are allowed up the HML on a single power car with no more than 9 coaches (IIRC) given an unchecked run at both major inclines; pretty sure somewhere further back in this thread the exact restrictions are given.

It's in the Sectional Appendix. However, given that we're talking about 5 coaches (max) on HML services, it's hardly likely to be an issue. As confirmed by @jingsmonty an empty 4 coach climbs the steeper gradients at line speed on a single power car, so I'd imagine even heavily loaded it would manage (though with a timekeeping penalty).

 

[chuff chuff]

Rumour mill says there will be a classic out in service next week.

 

[Class83]

I can't really comment on the Devon & Cornwall lines, but I can vouch for the fact that, even on the steep gradients on the HML, full power isn't required for a lot of it - I tend to get up to line speed & notch back, which is a totally different way of driving than what we are used to. Usually, in a 158 or 170, it's full power & nowhere near line speed...

For example, most of the climb from Blair Atholl to Drumochter is at power notch 2/3 (with an occasional touch of 4) - notch 5 (full power) not really needed, once line speed reached (partly due to the lower speed of 60mph, most of the way up the hill - DMUs can do 70, although none actually can...). In fact, one of my colleagues on the training train a while ago, managed to climb this gradient at line speed on 1 power car (rear one wouldn't start at Perth)!

Is the braking on a 4/5 car HST that much worse than a DMU or could Scotrail apply for a dispensation to allow DMU limits to be used, I thought HSTs were allowed to use the higher limit when there were split limits anyway?

 

[najaB]

could Scotrail apply for a dispensation to allow DMU limits to be used

Afaik, there's nothing to apply for.

 

[hexagon789]

Im sure in my 1989 SPT timetable an IC service worked to Scarborough from Queen St .

Can only find Cleethorpes in an earlier one, presumably it changed later.