ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

As the IET's were so late and kept failing and no one could fix them and wires took so long because of H & S is a good excuse. (My excuse to have a rant).

None of that delayed the HSTs going to ScotRail. Sets have been off-leased in line with the contractual handback plan - the only delays being agreed between Angel, GWR and ScotRail which was for sets not required yet as Wabtec were behind programme.

 

[InvHst]

Good show of HSTs on the Highland mainline today.........
0944 to Edinburgh 3 car
1255 formed of a 3 car
1725 formed of a 3 car
And the usual hst the 1739 out of Edinburgh is a 3 car as well tonight that's 3/4 of all them cancelled due to shortage of train crew..... Especially after yesterday's went soo well poor show

 

[jingsmonty]

Are the HSTs being left with one power car running all the time then ? At all depots or only some? As I understand it from posts elsewhere, cold starts seriously affect the service life of the engines, hence they need preheated either from a shore supply or from the power car at the other end

The training train isn't (or it wasn't tbe ladt time I was on it anyway), we have authority to 'cold start' if required - it's stabled with both engines shut down & power car batteries isolated (to avoid them discharging & failing to start the engine).

Sets for passenger service ARE stabled with 1 engine running, supplying ETS to the coaches & the other power car (in the station anyway - I'm not 100% sure about the set that is stabled overnight at Inverness for the 0554 Aberdeen, although this hasn't ran as an HST very often anyway, I don't think).

 

[jingsmonty]

Good show of HSTs on the Highland mainline today.........
0944 to Edinburgh 3 car
1255 formed of a 3 car
1725 formed of a 3 car
And the usual hst the 1739 out of Edinburgh is a 3 car as well tonight that's 3/4 of all them cancelled due to shortage of train crew..... Especially after yesterday's went soo well poor show

Very poor - I was lucky, as I had an HST south to Perth yesterday - they are lovely machines to drive!

 

[jingsmonty]

Apologies if this was discussed already, but I've not found it - is any particular effort being made to keep first class at the (Big) City end of the sets? I don't imagine they'd have many opportunities to get turned, but is this a consideration at all?

I wouldn't have thought so - any more than a 170 will be kept the same way round. I don't see that it's that relevant, to be honest.

 

[43096]

The training train isn't (or it wasn't tbe ladt time I was on it anyway), we have authority to 'cold start' if required - it's stabled with both engines shut down & power car batteries isolated (to avoid them discharging & failing to start the engine).

That just reinforces the suspicion that ScotRail fleet engineering are utterly clueless when it comes to HSTs. Are they aware that there is a 100hr engine hour penalty on the MDEC for a cold start?

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't have thought so - any more than a 170 will be kept the same way round. I don't see that it's that relevant, to be honest.

Well, the 170s have First at both ends, the HST only at one.

 

[connormill]

Well, the 170s have First at both ends, the HST only at one.

and once we start moving to 2+5 and 2+6 sets it would be nice to know that Coach A will always be at the same end, makes it easier for reserved seating

Could even install markers on the platforms to indicate which end Coach A/D will be at to reduce dwell times

 

[Goldromans]

and once we start moving to 2+5 and 2+6 sets it would be nice to know that Coach A will always be at the same end, makes it easier for reserved seating

Could even install markers on the platforms to indicate which end Coach A/D will be at to reduce dwell times

Would an easier option not be to display this information on departure boards? Since first class is always coach A, if they put up a “first class at the front/rear of the train” then this replays the information to passengers without the hassle of turning sets around.

On a similar note, is there any plans to display HST services as “ScotRail Inter7City” on departure boards, like they have with the 385 “Express” services?

 

[SC43090]

In answer to your question, 41137, 42502, 42265, 41116, 42257, 42578, 42350 and 42259 were the vehicles being moved.

Thanks for those HST coaches with yesterday's movement

SC 43090

 

[connormill]

I don't think "normal" passengers know that first will always be A - but i agree it would be quite simple to display "Coach A at the (Front/Rear) of this service" or something similar on a departure board

 

[route101]

Good show of HSTs on the Highland mainline today.........
0944 to Edinburgh 3 car
1255 formed of a 3 car
1725 formed of a 3 car
And the usual hst the 1739 out of Edinburgh is a 3 car as well tonight that's 3/4 of all them cancelled due to shortage of train crew..... Especially after yesterday's went soo well poor show

Is the Aberdeen - Central Belt not better for HSTs running ?

 

[snookertam]

and once we start moving to 2+5 and 2+6 sets it would be nice to know that Coach A will always be at the same end, makes it easier for reserved seating

Could even install markers on the platforms to indicate which end Coach A/D will be at to reduce dwell times

Not practical, because of the network they are operating. No focal point for the first class to be pointed towards.

EDIT: Actually it would be possible, as it's rare that they will operate between Glasgow and Edinburgh. This is the most likely thing to turn them the wrong way round.

 

[47271]

Labelling the coaches, something that they can't be bothered with on 170s any more, why would Scotland's best ever railway need anything as boring as that, is the most important thing to help passengers find their reserved seats.

Info systems telling a platform which way round the train is would be a helpful extra step. If Transpennine can manage it then so can Scotrail.

Drifting off topic, but does anyone know why they can't be a**ed to label 170 coaches A-B-C, it pretty much died with First leaving the franchise? It's not like there's any doubt about which coach is A as far as the train layout is concerned. They could claim that it's to stop confusion when they run as six cars, but obviously that excuse is no good at the moment since they'll never have enough trains to ever run in multiple!

Just label the coaches.

 

[route101]

Is there any 6 car services with seat reservations though? Apart from WHL 156S .

On the Aberdeen bound HST i was on the seat reservations were all in one coach

 

[marks87]

Not practical, because of the network they are operating. No focal point for the first class to be pointed towards.

EDIT: Actually it would be possible, as it's rare that they will operate between Glasgow and Edinburgh. This is the most likely thing to turn them the wrong way round.

Running from Queen Street to Haymarket Depot, then forming an Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness would turn a set, unless it went via the South Sub.

I know that Eastfield is being used to stable HSTs but it's not entirely out of the question that one will need to run to Haymarket.

 

[najaB]

Running from Queen Street to Haymarket Depot, then forming an Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness would turn a set, unless it went via the South Sub.

Yes, it's entirely possible that sets will get turned - Edinburgh/Aberdeen/Inverness/Edinburgh (if a set has to substitute) would do it too - hence the question as to if they would go to the bother of turning it back round when that happens.

 

[marks87]

Yes, it's entirely possible that sets will get turned - Edinburgh/Aberdeen/Inverness/Edinburgh (if a set has to substitute) would do it too - hence the question as to if they would go to the bother of turning it back round when that happens.

Would it? Surely the rear on arrival at Inverness is the same as that on arrival at Aberdeen, thus it heads back to Edinburgh in the same order as it would have done from Aberdeen.

 

[najaB]

Would it? Surely the rear on arrival at Inverness is the same as that on arrival at Aberdeen, thus it heads back to Edinburgh in the same order as it would have done from Aberdeen.

I'm pretty sure that it requires a reversal at Inverness to go down the HML having arrived from Aberdeen.

 

[alangla]

That just reinforces the suspicion that ScotRail fleet engineering are utterly clueless when it comes to HSTs. Are they aware that there is a 100hr engine hour penalty on the MDEC for a cold start?

Thought so, couldn’t remember the exact details. As much as I’m sure the refurbs are lovely to travel on, they don’t half appear to be money burners with this, the refurb costs, training and, I assume, astronomical fuel burn. One wonders if it wouldn’t have been cheaper to buy a fleet of brand new 802s with a warranty & the ability to make immediate use of rolling electrification.

 

[alangla]

I'm pretty sure that it requires a reversal at Inverness to go down the HML having arrived from Aberdeen.

The approach to Inverness via Millburn is the same for Aberdeen & Perth trains. If Aberdeen had been a terminal station then the trains would turn but as it is, it’s only trips on the E&G or via the Edinburgh sub that will turn them, other than deliberate turns at places like Inverkeithing. Even at that, the E&G turn can be mitigated by going into Eastfield & out via Cumbernauld

 

[43096]

Thought so, couldn’t remember the exact details. As much as I’m sure the refurbs are lovely to travel on, they don’t half appear to be money burners with this, the refurb costs, training and, I assume, astronomical fuel burn. One wonders if it wouldn’t have been cheaper to buy a fleet of brand new 802s with a warranty & the ability to make immediate use of rolling electrification.

You'd have the same issue with the 802s - the engines would require pre-heating and have similar issues around cold starts. Same manufacturer!

New trains would also cost significantly more to lease.

 

[alangla]

You'd have the same issue with the 802s - the engines would require pre-heating and have similar issues around cold starts. Same manufacturer!

New trains would also cost significantly more to lease.

Does the 802 not have a donkey generator or something to provide preheat or am I thinking of the 801? Assume an 802 on electric preheats via the OHLE supply?

 

[snookertam]

Running from Queen Street to Haymarket Depot, then forming an Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness would turn a set, unless it went via the South Sub.

I know that Eastfield is being used to stable HSTs but it's not entirely out of the question that one will need to run to Haymarket.

They could run the scheduled ECS movements via Dalmeny so that they could keep them the correct way round. Only ad-hoc movements or when that route is unavailable would cause an issue then. So they can actually do a lot to prevent it.

 

[43096]

Does the 802 not have a donkey generator or something to provide preheat or am I thinking of the 801? Assume an 802 on electric preheats via the OHLE supply?

The "donkey engine" on an 801 is the same as the engines under an 800, so requires pre-heat. Obviously whilst under 25kV they pre-heat from the overhead supply. Bit of a shortage of that at Inverness and Aberdeen though (are Haymarket and Eastfield wired?), so it would need a shore supply.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does the 802 not have a donkey generator or something to provide preheat or am I thinking of the 801? Assume an 802 on electric preheats via the OHLE supply?

The class 802s have the same number of diesel engines as the 800s.

It's the 801s that have a single diesel engine, primarily for rescue purposes. There are none in service yet, but, potentially with the exception of North Pole, I don't believe that there are any depots running IET trains on electric power anyway at this stage; and I believe that part of the contract for maintaining the trains requires that the diesel engines are tested regularly, which makes shuffling them around depots (and providing pre-heat) on diesel only an easy proposition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not practical, because of the network they are operating. No focal point for the first class to be pointed towards.

EDIT: Actually it would be possible, as it's rare that they will operate between Glasgow and Edinburgh. This is the most likely thing to turn them the wrong way round.

The formation needs to be entered into the PIS reliably, which needs to show formations against platform zones. BR managed it, yet the TOCs other than VTWC seem to find it rather rocket-science-esque.

 

[najaB]

The approach to Inverness via Millburn is the same for Aberdeen & Perth trains.

So that means that the end that's at the front from Edinburgh to Inverness will be at the back from Inverness to Edinburgh, no?

 

[alangla]

So that means that the end that's at the front from Edinburgh to Inverness will be at the back from Inverness to Edinburgh, no?

Correct and it’ll be the same way round regardless of whether it returns to Edinburgh via Aviemore or Aberdeen

 

[jingsmonty]

Well, the 170s have First at both ends, the HST only at one.

But a 170 can have Coach A (disabled toilet/seating area) at either end, depending on what way round it is - surely that would be more of an issue than what end the 1st class is at? Which it isn't.

Think Scotrail have more important things to think about than having HST sets all facing in 1 particular direction!