ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[hexagon789]

That's the announced intention. Scotrail were defenite about that. All I can say is that it will require a seriously increased output from Wabtec!

Very definite!

Presumably if they aren't done by December then a mix of refurbished and classic sets will continue to provide the services.

 

[alangla]

Spotted on Scot-rail, the refurb set had a day’s work planned but only made it from Edinburgh to Dundee before encountering a guard who couldn’t operate it. Farcical https://m.journeycheck.com/scotrail...319&webMsg=false&engWorksPeriod=&serviceTime=

 

[Northhighland]

That's the announced intention. Scotrail were defenite about that. All I can say is that it will require a seriously increased output from Wabtec!

When Kilmarnock start then they should start to make a huge difference. Also from the pictures last week it isn’t start one set and work it to completion seems there at least 4 sets in progress.

Get the same system going in Kilmarnock and output could radically improve. Still seems optimistic but certainly looks a lot more organised.

A mixture for another few months isn’t the end of the world. Focus now needs to be on improving reliability and completing the staff training. Really important that the operational experience for passengers remains positive. Situations like yesterday with guard and refurb are not good.

 

[jingsmonty]

When Kilmarnock start then they should start to make a huge difference. Also from the pictures last week it isn’t start one set and work it to completion seems there at least 4 sets in progress.

Get the same system going in Kilmarnock and output could radically improve. Still seems optimistic but certainly looks a lot more organised.

A mixture for another few months isn’t the end of the world. Focus now needs to be on improving reliability and completing the staff training. Really important that the operational experience for passengers remains positive. Situations like yesterday with guard and refurb are not good.

Definetly not a good situation! I know we're all (drivers) having a brief & practical training on the refurb soon, being organised now.

Agree with you, Northhighland - it seems a long way off, but hopefully the majority of sets will be completed by the end of this year, even if not all. That would be tangible progress.

 

[najaB]

Spotted on Scot-rail, the refurb set had a day’s work planned but only made it from Edinburgh to Dundee before encountering a guard who couldn’t operate it.

Do we know if this was a last-minute subsitution (e.g. booked guard called in sick)? Because it seems like the kind of thing that should've been picked up pretty early in the rostering process.

 

[CJSwan]

Do we know if this was a last-minute subsitution (e.g. booked guard called in sick)? Because it seems like the kind of thing that should've been picked up pretty early in the rostering process.

It sometimes just happens. I was once rostered to work the first refurbished set even though I was only trained on slam doors at the time. Fortunately there was a spare who was trained that accompanied me for that portion of my shift - they did the doors and I did tickets.

Same shift I was given a 156+158 on the 17:11 out of Queen Street, despite not being trained on 156s, needless to say it was rather cosy on the 158 after the two units were split!

 

[najaB]

I was once rostered to work the first refurbished set even though I was only trained on slam doors at the time.

Is this not something that's recorded in the rostering system - who's qualified to work what?

I'm not having a dig, just genuinely curious as it sounds like something that should be automatically flagged up. If I was designing a rostering tool, every "person" record would have a "trained on" record associated and if you tried to roster someone against a unit that they weren't qualifed for it would set off metaphorical alarm bells.

 

[AMD]

Is this not something that's recorded in the rostering system - who's qualified to work what?

Nope.
Rosters know what each link at each depot *should* sign, however when there's upheaval eg through training it's up to the individual to check what work they are being given; or disruption - an example being i've had an occasion when a display stated that my train was formed of 3 carriages, when I only sign traction that comes in 2 or 4 car lengths, so that was a phone call to control.

 

[najaB]

Nope.
Rosters know what each link at each depot *should* sign, however when there's upheaval eg through training it's up to the individual to check what work they are being given; or disruption - an example being i've had an occasion when a display stated that my train was formed of 3 carriages, when I only sign traction that comes in 2 or 4 car lengths, so that was a phone call to control.

Thanks. Very interesting.

 

[BRX]

So it's the responsibility of the person who the work has been assigned to, to check they are qualified for it, rather than the person who assigns it to them? That seems a strange way of doing things.

 

[scotraildriver]

That doesn't happen at my depot. Our Train Crew Supervisors spend many hours checking and double checking who can do what, where and when. They juggle jobs about to accommodate traction and route knowledge. Given that jobs change on an almost daily basis you can't expect staff to check they can work every shift as it often changes on the day anyway. You would be expected to spot a glaring error, such as being rostered an HST job if you're not trained, but generally it's up to the supervisors to ensure the jobs are covered by competent people.

As an aside it appears the rostered guard on today's HST had a medication issue meaning he had to be substituted at the last minute.

 

[CC 72100]

I'm not having a dig, just genuinely curious as it sounds like something that should be automatically flagged up. If I was designing a rostering tool, every "person" record would have a "trained on" record associated and if you tried to roster someone against a unit that they weren't qualifed for it would set off metaphorical alarm bells.

[/QUOTE]

Certainly with the TOCs I've had experience with, that is how it works. A database of colleagues and their competencies sits separately. Each diagram has required competencies (traction or route normally) and goes into the rostering software. Said rostering software then checks the database to confirm that the colleague who you wish to roster to this specific diagram has the required competencies. If it doesn't, it will 'kick' the person off the job.

However, say the diagram is amended after rostering. Same times, same services, just 158 instead of 170. The colleague who only signs 170s will still be on it, because when the original version of the diagram was used, all was tickety boo. It now relies on manual intervention to spot this and get it changed. If the driver is from a depot that normally signs both 158s and 170s then an even greater chance of this being missed or not even considered as something worth checking in the first place.

 

[jingsmonty]

Is this not something that's recorded in the rostering system - who's qualified to work what?

I'm not having a dig, just genuinely curious as it sounds like something that should be automatically flagged up. If I was designing a rostering tool, every "person" record would have a "trained on" record associated and if you tried to roster someone against a unit that they weren't qualifed for it would set off metaphorical alarm bells.

It's a bit of a nightmare for the roster clerks/co-ordinators just now. Lots of new staff (who may not have signed all routes and/or traction), staff who need shifts covered for training (such as HST training).

There is a lot going on (more then I can remember happening in my 10yrs + at 2 different depots).

It should be flagged up by the rostering system, but doesn't seem to always work. It's not a job I'd want to do!

 

[deltic08]

Nope.
Rosters know what each link at each depot *should* sign, however when there's upheaval eg through training it's up to the individual to check what work they are being given; or disruption - an example being i've had an occasion when a display stated that my train was formed of 3 carriages, when I only sign traction that comes in 2 or 4 car lengths, so that was a phone call to control.

Let me get this right. You can drive 2 and 4-car trains but not 3-car? How come? What's so different?

 

[laseandre]

Let me get this right. You can drive 2 and 4-car trains but not 3-car? How come? What's so different?

I'm guessing they only sign 156s and/or 158s which are routinely doubled up, thus the 2/4 cars, but not 170s, which are only 3 cars in Scotrail service.

 

[InvHst]

Oh how I wish we could go back to a few weeks ago when the HST service was better no other way but describing the classic HST service into and out of Inverness as absolutely pathetic the last 2 days all cancelled wonder when we will see a classic in service again aint holding my breath.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm guessing they only sign 156s and/or 158s which are routinely doubled up, thus the 2/4 cars, but not 170s, which are only 3 cars in Scotrail service.

Exactly. I was in a similar position when I moved deopts a few years ago - I could drive 3 cars, but not 2/4 cars.

 

[jingsmonty]

Oh how I wish we could go back to a few weeks ago when the HST service was better no other way but describing the classic HST service into and out of Inverness as absolutely pathetic the last 2 days all cancelled wonder when we will see a classic in service again aint holding my breath.

Hopefully once the 3 extra classic sets are made up & in service, that'll help. And having set HA24 in Inverness could, potentially, free up another classic set.

It's frustrating for us train crew when HST services are constantly substituted for DMUs too..the more experience we gain working HSTs, the better. Not great for the passengers either, when a 4 coach HST is substituted for a 3 car 170 (or a 2 car 158) complete with missing reservations...

 

[EE Andy b1]

I'm guessing they only sign 156s and/or 158s which are routinely doubled up, thus the 2/4 cars, but not 170s, which are only 3 cars in Scotrail service.

Could get very confusing if running as a 6 car!

Surely on a drivers/guards traction card it would say Class 170, Class 156/158 or HST not 2 car, 3 car. On a diagram it would say HST, 170 or 158 or even 2 x 156 or whatever is diagrammed. Don't know how the difference is shown between classic HST and a 7Cities set.

If a last minute change then any traction could turn up i suppose which is when the bigger problems arise.

 

[laseandre]

Could get very confusing if running as a 6 car!

Surely on a drivers/guards traction card it would say Class 170, Class 156/158 or HST not 2 car, 3 car. On a diagram it would say HST, 170 or 158 or even 2 x 156 or whatever is diagrammed. Don't know how the difference is shown between classic HST and a 7Cities set.

If a last minute change then any traction could turn up i suppose which is when the bigger problems arise.

What they were saying is that the diagram was originally booked for traction they signed, but when the platform display read "This service has 3 carriages" that immediately set off alarm bells since they obviously don't sign any 3 car trains!

 

[scotraildriver]

Your licence has your certified traction types on it. The number of cars is irrelevant. There is nothing to distinguish between classic and refurb HSTs.

 

[jingsmonty]

Could get very confusing if running as a 6 car!

Surely on a drivers/guards traction card it would say Class 170, Class 156/158 or HST not 2 car, 3 car. On a diagram it would say HST, 170 or 158 or even 2 x 156 or whatever is diagrammed. Don't know how the difference is shown between classic HST and a 7Cities set.

If a last minute change then any traction could turn up i suppose which is when the bigger problems arise.

It does, you're correct. It's just maybe the way the post was worded. I'd be interested to see how the difference between a Classic HST & a refurbished one is shown too...it hasn't arisen yet, but as the 'refurbs' eventually make it onto the HML, it may.

 

[jingsmonty]

Your licence has your certified traction types on it. The number of cars is irrelevant. There is nothing to distinguish between classic and refurb HSTs.

Correct. We, as drivers, still need a brief/practical conversion to a 'Inter7City' refurbished set though - I believe it takes about 2hrs? Not sure about the Guards, I'd imagine they will need more. Have you had this yet? I think it's being organised for us Inverness drivers soon, as we have HA24 to train on now.

 

[jingsmonty]

What they were saying is that the diagram was originally booked for traction they signed, but when the platform display read "This service has 3 carriages" that immediately set off alarm bells since they obviously don't sign any 3 car trains!

This whole discussion has, I think, resulted from a bit of a misunderstanding..laseandre has summed it up pretty well!

 

[EE Andy b1]

What they were saying is that the diagram was originally booked for traction they signed, but when the platform display read "This service has 3 carriages" that immediately set off alarm bells since they obviously don't sign any 3 car trains!

I totally understand where he was coming from now, thanks for that.

I'am a driver myself and only now have two types of traction on my card now, which was once probably 20 plus types, so i only have to worry about 5, 9, 10 & 11 carriages on my train!!

 

[anamyd]

I totally understand where he was coming from now, thanks for that.

I'am a driver myself and only now have two types of traction on my card now, which was once probably 20 plus types, so i only have to worry about 5, 9, 10 & 11 carriages on my train!!

ahh, you used to drive your TOC's ex-BR locos before they were withdrawn...? though I don't recall them having (over) 20 different types of them

 

[chuff chuff]

Correct. We, as drivers, still need a brief/practical conversion to a 'Inter7City' refurbished set though - I believe it takes about 2hrs? Not sure about the Guards, I'd imagine they will need more. Have you had this yet? I think it's being organised for us Inverness drivers soon, as we have HA24 to train on now.

2 hrs would be about right,there's not an awful lot in it between the Traction Interlock system and the doors.

 

[EE Andy b1]

ahh, you used to drive your TOC's ex-BR locos before they were withdrawn...? though I don't recall them having (over) 20 different types of them

Ahh well,i was counting in total from British Rail, EWS and it's forebears & Virgin WC!! Just 34 and a bit years worth.

 

[jingsmonty]

2 hrs would be about right,there's not an awful lot in it between the Traction Interlock system and the doors.

That was my thoughts too - cheers for that

 

[jingsmonty]

Think the 1255 Inverness to Waverley sounded suspiciously like a 2 car 158 when it passed my house...