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Avanti and their current problems. What could be done to improve things?

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800001

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A lot of double trips happen on the MML. Most Sheffield based crew go to London (2h), then a round trip to Nottingham, then back to Sheffield with an hours break in London thrown in. I can’t speak for Avanti because I know nothing about route knowledge but would it be possible for, say, Manchester to London, then a round trip to Birmingham, then back up to Manchester, or vice versa?
Or Anglia who work Norwich to London and back and then do a return on one of branch lines
 
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muz379

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The unions would, yes.

The members wouldn’t though, as most (if not all) like being able to work rest days and do overtime to earn extra money.

But the unions represent the members wishes, don’t they?


Meanwhile I was speaking to a driver today in a company with a Rest Day ban in place. He desperately wants to work some rest days, so I suggested he talk to his rep about it. “Can’t do that, that would look bad, and we can’t ever suggest to the reps that we do something against what they decide”
Im not sure an anecdotal story about one driver not wanting to approach his reps to enquire about a RD ban is particularly helpful .

Of course unions as democratic organisations represent the wishes of their members, currently for ASLEF as they are the union we are speaking about Sundays inside the working week and full employment with no RDW is a charter commitment .

If a member could convince enough members of their own branch to support a resolution to change the charter , and then as a whole union issue convince the annual conference to change the charter . Then the charter would be changed . Or more locally if they want to challenge what their company council reps are doing they could pass a resolution to change that or even get a sufficient number to challenge them at branch meetings to inform them of their wishes with regards RDW

Sitting in a mess room lawyering about it or speaking to a member of the public about their wishes isnt going to change it .

Im sure you will retort back that theyll be discouraged from doing any of the above by their reps . But if they stood up to this and did get a sufficient number to support them they could change things , plenty of people are quite happy to just pay their dues every month and see it as an insurance policy , when it can and should be seen as more than that .

Certainly where I am , its not all traincrew that like RDW . Theres about 1/4 of the depot that when there is an agreement will work every RDW they can get and do 12hrs as many days as they can basically they live at the place when they can , about half the depot that will work the odd extra here or there to pay for a holiday or christmas or pension AVC's etc and then about another 1/4 that wont work anything they don't have to including on the day overtime . People drift from group to group depending on circumstances .
No doubt.

Though in most other industries with shift work, there are people who have the specific job of designing rosters, rather than taking a lot of people out of their (rather well paid) normal job to do it.
And at most TOC's Links are negotiable items as per collective bargaining agreements so it would require a negotiation for them to no longer be negotiable .
Some TOCs release scores of reps for weeks at a time…
They also release scores of reps on spurious managing for attendance meetings , stupid discliplinarys that go nowehere or nonesnse safety of line investigations . A handful of days to get staff buy in on arguably one of the most important issues for staff really isnt a great price .

The minute the links are up on the wall for any traincrew grade they are scrutinised in detail . If theres a mistake or some detrimental change the reps hear about it loud and clear . That would only be amplified and lead to more distrust and ill feeling if it was management that made a mistake or gave one link consistently worse work than another .

We have two reps per depot. They will all get released during rostering and scrutineering time. Some depots will do this pretty quick, some take numerous days of negotiation and discussion. Two Drivers out of 70+ at my depot who get released for Union duties has a very minimal impact on the service. You might say that the roster is designed for this exact situation.

Again, this relationship between TOC/Union is a positive one and should be supported.
Indeed one of the calculable figures for spare coverage in our formula is staff rep release .

To be honest from what ive seen the reps during these days release for links & diagrams will also get other things done that they'd otherwise be released for anyway .
 
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yorkie

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Im not sure an anecdotal story about one driver not wanting to approach his reps to enquire about a RD ban is particularly helpful .
Not helpful to your side of the argument, you mean.
Of course unions as democratic organisations represent the wishes of their members
In theory yes, but in practice that's not necessarily the case.
If a member could convince enough members of their own branch to support a resolution to change the charter , and then as a whole union issue convince the annual conference to change the charter . Then the charter would be changed . Or more locally if they want to challenge what their company council reps are doing they could pass a resolution to change that or even get a sufficient number to challenge them at branch meetings to inform them of their wishes with regards RDW
How many people are prepared to go through such hoops and potentially come into conflict with others? Probably not many
Sitting in a mess room lawyering about it or speaking to a member of the public about their wishes isnt going to change it .
People are entitled to their views regardless of whether they have the power to change anything
Im sure you will retort back that theyll be discouraged from doing any of the above by their reps . But if they stood up to this and did get a sufficient number to support them they could change things , plenty of people are quite happy to just pay their dues every month and see it as an insurance policy , when it can and should be seen as more than that .
As I said above do you really think a significant proportion of people are going to be prepared to go through that?
Certainly where I am , its not all traincrew that like RDW . Theres about 1/4 of the depot that when there is an agreement will work every RDW they can get and do 12hrs as many days as they can basically they live at the place when they can , about half the depot that will work the odd extra here or there to pay for a holiday or christmas or pension AVC's etc and then about another 1/4 that wont work anything they don't have to including on the day overtime . People drift from group to group depending on circumstances .
Do you think those that don't take on any extra work would willingly take Sundays on as a normal working day ?
 
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the sniper

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Not helpful to your side of the argument, you mean.

If we were to provide a series of quotes from the messrooms to support 'our side of the argument', would it be considered helpful for discussion here? I wouldn't have thought it'd be appreciated or have any particular value.
 

Val3ntine

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Meanwhile I was speaking to a driver today in a company with a Rest Day ban in place. He desperately wants to work some rest days, so I suggested he talk to his rep about it. “Can’t do that, that would look bad, and we can’t ever suggest to the reps that we do something against what they decide”

Another thing to add to this point is the fact that there’s a rest day ban in place, it means it will have been voted for by the membership, the reps would simply be acting on instruction of it’s own members who voted in favour for action short of strike.
 

gazzaa2

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Manchester also has the benefit of several services that continue to stations that allow connections to London, so all 3 being cancelled isn't the end of the world.

Yeah, Liverpool not even on Cross Country network. And Manchester quicker across the pennines for LNER
 

357

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Do you think those that don't take on any extra work would willingly take Sundays on as a normal working day ?
Actually, having worked for a TOC that moved Sunday inside, yes.

All committed Sundays were added up and included in basic pay, so the hourly rate increased nicely during the week.

With no increase in contracted hours, it meant staff were working less as the Sundays that they were committed to work anyway now came in as part of their weekly 35 hours.
 

ComUtoR

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How many people are prepared to go through such hoops and potentially come into conflict with others? Probably not many


As I said above do you really think a significant proportion of people are going to be prepared to go through that?

I'm not sure if you are aware but it happens every single year at AAD. (Annual Assembly of Delegates)

There is a process in place where this exact scenario happens. It starts with messroom "discussion",. complaints get brought up at Branch level, and then if needed, raised at AAD, and voted on at a National level.

Plenty of people are prepared to go through this proces, and they do, every single year.
 

bramling

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Do you think those that don't take on any extra work would willingly take Sundays on as a normal working day ?

In my experience, the “I do my contracted hours, no more no less” types tend to be fairly solid. By contrast, it’s often the overtime sharks who are problematic - quite happily knife someone to get an overtime shift in February, but first ones to be off sick over Christmas / school holidays / etc, or want something extra in return for their doing overtime (I’ll do it if you give me X day off).
 

muz379

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Not helpful to your side of the argument, you mean.
I mean we could all use anecdotes , but I am sure if I started posting about conversations I had with people who supported no RDW id be told that this was merely an anecdote and not indivative of wider feeling .
In theory yes, but in practice that's not necessarily the case.
How many people are prepared to go through such hoops and potentially come into conflict with others? Probably not many
People do it all the time in my experience , that people who are part of a democratic organisation with these structures in place to change things do not exercise their rights is not an argument that those organisations are not democratic . You say it brings people into conflict with others , in my experience debates at Branches and annual conferences are comradely and generally have support both sides , any good union will have policies on respectful behavoir towards fellow members similar to what employees are expected to adhere to in the workplace .As I said the more people see their trade unions as democratic organisations that they are a part of the better the union can represent its membership .

There is probably more potential for conflict when some challenges an incumbant rep at election time but people do that all the time as well and in my experience its always been handled amicably.
People are entitled to their views regardless of whether they have the power to change anything
I didn't say they werent I was merely pointing out that they wont change anything . As someone has already pointed out , mess room lawyering is part of the beginning of the process of getting members together to support a resolution at branch but it isnt in and of itself going to change anything no matter how passionately the argument is made . The unions democratic structures are the only way to change the unions policy on something as a member .
Do you think those that don't take on any extra work would willingly take Sundays on as a normal working day ?
There will be a range of views on it sure . But for those that religiously never work extras if at a TOC that has committed sundays outside the working week are committed to work above their 35 hr week currently unless cover is found , bringing them inside the week will eliminate that so I am sure some who religiously dont want to work OT will support it .
 

irish_rail

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Just a thought , but I wonder if Dft are "running down" Avanti, in order to make things so bad that when HS2 comes along it won't be seen as a white elephant but a step change. Or am I being cynical?
 

43066

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Why exactly I wonder is this generally hitting last trains worse? Are some willing to work rest days but only daytime, perhaps?

The way it generally works is that, if you make yourself available for RDW, the starting point is that you will be allocated whatever the company needs, with order of preference going to those who have the lowest rest day count (to share the overtime around fairly). If you express a preference (eg earlies only, lates only etc), you go to the back of the queue and will be allocated a job last. So the trade off is that, by being picky, you’re less likely to get anything.

Personally I always express a preference. I’d rather not work a rest day at all than be at work at a time I don’t want to be there. The basic roster makes the job anti social enough already!

EDIT: and late-lates covering “vomit comet” last trains full of drunken idiots are generally the least popular shifts. No surprise those are hit hardest!
 
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dk1

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The way it generally works is that, if you make yourself available for RDW, the starting point is that you will be allocated whatever the company needs, with order of preference going to those who have the lowest rest day count (to share the overtime around fairly). If you express a preference (eg earlies only, lates only etc), you go to the back of the queue and will be allocated a job last. So the trade off is that, by being picky, you’re less likely to get anything.

Personally I always express a preference. I’d rather not work a rest day at all than be at work at a time I don’t want to be there. The basic roster makes the job anti social enough already!

EDIT: and late-lates covering “vomit comet” last trains full of drunken idiots are generally the least popular shifts. No surprise those are hit hardest!
We can not make ourselves available at my TOC but then pick & choose what’s open (or declined) when the list comes out. Only thing you lose out on is the bonus for making yourself available in advance but this to me is a fair compromise to not end up with an awful late late turn or God forbid nights.
 

357

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The way it generally works is that, if you make yourself available for RDW, the starting point is that you will be allocated whatever the company needs, with order of preference going to those who have the lowest rest day count (to share the overtime around fairly). If you express a preference (eg earlies only, lates only etc), you go to the back of the queue and will be allocated a job last. So the trade off is that, by being picky, you’re less likely to get anything.

Personally I always express a preference. I’d rather not work a rest day at all than be at work at a time I don’t want to be there. The basic roster makes the job anti social enough already!

EDIT: and late-lates covering “vomit comet” last trains full of drunken idiots are generally the least popular shifts. No surprise those are hit hardest!
At my TOC before allocating anything they call us and ask.

I have a shift coming up on a rest day that started at the wrong end of the route for my personal preference - they removed the first half of the trip and asked someone else to do it to shorten my commute.
 

The Planner

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Just a thought , but I wonder if Dft are "running down" Avanti, in order to make things so bad that when HS2 comes along it won't be seen as a white elephant but a step change. Or am I being cynical?
They will be running it down for another 7-8 years then.
 

mrmartin

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That (and not shares in Arriva and Abellio, nor a suggestion that those TOCs are angels) is why I'm recommending people use the alternative options available for most of their journeys*, though anyone wanting some places between Warrington BQ and Carlisle inclusive don't have great options.

Really not worth going via LNER/Northern to Carlisle IMO, firstly the fares are way higher and have very punititive peak time restrictions (which the WCML doesn't have really past Lancaster). Secondly it will take at least 2 hours longer, so you'd have to have loads of cancellations on avanti to make it worthwhile. Plus the ECML has hardly been an angel of reliability recently with loads of OHLE problems lately.

I think if you're going somewhere easily served from Crewe then LNWR makes sense as it is also vastly cheaper. But apart from that I wouldn't spend hours doing a roundabout way as so many avanti services would have to be cancelled before it would make sense.
 

peter166

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In terms of absolute cancelled train numbers , I guess we are now seeing a few hundred per month for Avanti right across their route network. Nobody could actually book with confidence right now.
With an average of 30 full cancellations maybe higher per day it is more like a few hundred per WEEK
 

43066

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We can not make ourselves available at my TOC but then pick & choose what’s open (or declined) when the list comes out. Only thing you lose out on is the bonus for making yourself available in advance but this to me is a fair compromise to not end up with an awful late late turn or God forbid nights.

Your preferences are similar to mine. If I couldn’t specify a preference I simply wouldn’t do any and certainly won’t do nights under any circumstances.

At my TOC before allocating anything they call us and ask.

I have a shift coming up on a rest day that started at the wrong end of the route for my personal preference - they removed the first half of the trip and asked someone else to do it to shorten my commute.

Ours call us when they’re desperate. I was once offered my pick of five jobs!
 

the sniper

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Why exactly I wonder is this generally hitting last trains worse? Are some willing to work rest days but only daytime, perhaps?

I doubt it works this way to a great extent on Avanti due to the length of the trips, but on local TOCs late/last trains 'at risk' can potentially be covered up until fairly late in the day by asking/begging people to stay over their day. Sometimes if people get to the end of their shift and aren't too fed up, they might volunteer to stay over or pick something that's open that they wouldn't mind doing. Alternatively, subject to local agreements/practices, you might agree to come off your own job, which could then be covered by somebody else, in order to cover work that is open later that'll take you over your day. Or you might be spare/standby and agree to work something that'd otherwise be over your day.

The culture was one of "12 hour men", who'll always stay after their day and could fairly predictably be pencilled in to do stuff that was left open. This culture still prevails in a good number of TOCs.

Obviously this goodwill can quickly fall away once the TOC starts playing games.
 
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dk1

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Your preferences are similar to mine. If I couldn’t specify a preference I simply wouldn’t do any and certainly won’t do nights under any circumstances.

I concur mate. Done my fair share of nights over the years. And any additional working is on my terms.
 

STINT47

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Avanti are saying that the current situationis due to continue until the industrial relations dispute is resolved. This does seem yo imply that staff are currently taking some form of action although not officially.

It's all a but of a mess along with other parts of the rail and bus industry and can only lead to less.peoe using public transport.
 

Bald Rick

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Im not sure an anecdotal story about one driver not wanting to approach his reps to enquire about a RD ban is particularly helpful .

Maybe, maybe not. I’ll be speaking to another driver from the same TOC tomorrow. I expect to hear the same.

To be clear, though, it wasn’t about not wanting to approach his rep, it was that he couldn’t, because it would be seen to be making trouble. And that most of his colleagues felt the same.

Of course this could be a particular issue at one depot. Although it is consistent with what I have heard from other friends of mine who are drivers across a number of TOCs.

Just a thought , but I wonder if Dft are "running down" Avanti, in order to make things so bad that when HS2 comes along it won't be seen as a white elephant but a step change. Or am I being cynical?

Yes you are being cynical. DfT are not running it down. They would, I’m sure, much rather be running a full service.

Another thing to add to this point is the fact that there’s a rest day ban in place, it means it will have been voted for by the membership, the reps would simply be acting on instruction of it’s own members who voted in favour for action short of strike.

Not necessarily. Most RDW agreements have an expiry date, and it can lapse without the need for a member vote.
 

Rover77

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I am an Avanti employee and its untrue to blame the current awful performance on industrial relations. Other than official strike days everything else is purely down to lack of staff. Tweeting on Sunday about unofficial strike action is a downright lie and nothing but propaganda. In saftey critical roles it is vital staff have rest days. Not working your rest day is not unofficial strike action. Its very frustrating and demoralising at the moment and we as staff can totally sympathies with customers. The whole situation lies at the door of management and the government.
 

Carlisle

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In saftey critical roles it is vital staff have rest days.
Sorry that just suggests a higher degree of entitlement to rest days & decent rosters than those viewed as lower non safety critical staff. Perhaps you didn’t at all intend it that way but that’s how it comes across, & is a significant problem in part’s of the rail industry & wider society.
 
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the sniper

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Maybe, maybe not. I’ll be speaking to another driver from the same TOC tomorrow. I expect to hear the same.

To be clear, though, it wasn’t about not wanting to approach his rep, it was that he couldn’t, because it would be seen to be making trouble. And that most of his colleagues felt the same.

Of course this could be a particular issue at one depot. Although it is consistent with what I have heard from other friends of mine who are drivers across a number of TOCs.

The thing I struggle with, is that it isn't consistent with what I hear from the large pool of Drivers I encounter, but to be fair, I can't imagine many of the Drivers I regularly encounter, other than union reps, would have a senior railway manager calling them up for a chat. I think there are a good number of us here who are entirely familiar with the wide variety of opinions that are being voiced in messrooms by a broad spectrum of colleagues in the grade, yet you don't seem to be hearing/repeating the things I hear most commonly. Everything you seem to hear/repeat is curiously anti-union, anti-industrial action, non-fussed by the prevailing circumstances. It doesn't match the majority of what I hear or align with the massive mandates for action voted for in most TOCs, that some here like to treat as though they're entirely involuntary.

At the end of the day, it's irrelevant to those of us on the floor who know the mixture of what is being said, but for much the audience here, all they have to rely on is such hearsay.

Sorry that just suggests a higher entitlement to rest days & decent rosters than what you may view as lower non safety critical staff. Perhaps you didn’t intend it that way but that’s how it comes across.

I'm really not sure how you've deduced that.
 
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Tomnick

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To be clear, though, it wasn’t about not wanting to approach his rep, it was that he couldn’t, because it would be seen to be making trouble. And that most of his colleagues felt the same.
If a majority of colleagues do feel the same, then there should be absolutely no problem with getting a suitable resolution passed at branch, and indeed anyone standing against the incumbent rep at re-election time would presumably get the vote!

On the other hand, we elect our representatives to represent our best interests, and we do have to trust them. I'd like to think that withdrawal of rest day working would never be done lightly, and if it is done then it's been done with the best interests of the membership at heart. Our strength is in our unity.

Perhaps the lesson here is to make sure that we all make sure that we elect reps who truly intend to work to represent us, rather than resorting to whoever can be persuaded to fill a vacancy on the strength of all the release time (enjoy it while it lasts) or just sticking with the status quo because we don't want to rock the boat.
 

Bald Rick

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If a majority of colleagues do feel the same, then there should be absolutely no problem with getting a suitable resolution passed at branch, and indeed anyone standing against the incumbent rep at re-election time would presumably get the vote!

if only it were that simple.
 
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