Diamond Jubilee Train Services

[Urban Gateline]

South West Trains did run a few extra services towards london in the morning, one I remember seeing on their site was from Havant to Waterloo.

However most services had their maximum capacity on them, all suburban services were 8 car 455's instead of 4 cars which would be the sunday norm! Long distance were either 8 or 12 car 450's or 10 car 444's so a few of those extended from the Sunday norm.

Most trains ran on time or only a few minutes late which was quite commendable given how many people were trying to squeeze onto them, therefore difficulties in dispatching them! The only fault may be just not running enough extra trains to cope with the passenger flow, but as HHF has said there were probably not the staffing levels or stock/pathing availability to cope with that.

 

[A-driver]

The lack of staff being a Sunday is completely irrelevant. Ok so FCC and London midland have voluntary Sundays, southern have them as compulsory overtime and lorol and swt have them as part of the working week. Which ever system is in place they will still need overtime-just like if they needed extra services on a Wednesday. If 90 drivers are rostered to work a Sunday, weather voluntary or compulsory or within the working week, then if they need an extra 10 drivers to work extra services then they still need volunteers to work overtime and I can't see how you can argue that people should be forced to work their days off (although I'm aware some industries do try). In the old days TOCs had spare drivers for these kind of things but nowadays they don't like paying drivers to sit around all day as a just incase.

 

[PhilipW]

Who said it made any profits? Any extra service provided that generated an money would generate money for the DfT as its an extra service. Considering the current government thinking is cheaper railways, then minimum level of service is what you can expect in the future.

I am not an expert in railway finances so I cannnot say who made the profit yesterday, whether the TOC, Network Rail or DfT. I would guess that 3 to 4 times the number of people travelled yesterday than on a normal Sunday. So with the greatly increased income and the services supplied being near to the Sunday normal, someone somwhere must be sitting on a huge profit.

 

[142094]

Adding an extra unit onto a service that is already running cannot be much hassle, especially if there is no extra staffing costs involved. The only reasons I have heard are:

1) Maintenance regimes

2) Stock movements.

For 1), not every unit is out for maintenance and some maintenance regimes can be flexible.

For 2), it depends on which depot the unit is allocated to but in the simplest form it would only require a few additional shunts at the depot.

 

[DownSouth]

I am not an expert in railway finances so I cannnot say who made the profit yesterday, whether the TOC, Network Rail or DfT. I would guess that 3 to 4 times the number of people travelled yesterday than on a normal Sunday. So with the greatly increased income and the services supplied being near to the Sunday normal, someone somwhere must be sitting on a huge profit.

Ticket revenue is not paid on the basis of how many people travel on a given service, there is a complicated system called ORCATS which deals it out on the basis of which companies operate how many trains from a given station across the course of a year and so on. Because it is all about the total numbers across the year, there is little incentive to lengthen services because they will be paid for it regardless of whether extra cars are added to a consist.

A proper private railway company would have the incentive to do this right, because they would not be letting the ticket revenue out of their hands like that. They would be able to sell additional tickets and keep the additional revenue.

Likewise, a public transport system where the Government retains control of all ticket revenue and the private operators are simply paid to do their jobs (operate trains, staff and maintain) as contractors (rather than franchisees) would have gotten this right. The Government would have been able to tell the operator to put on extra capacity compared to the contract's normal Sunday roster, and the contracts would specify the way this is to work. The increased revenue would go directly to the Government, and would be used by them to pay the operators for running the extra trains.

 

[Class377/5]

I am not an expert in railway finances so I cannnot say who made the profit yesterday, whether the TOC, Network Rail or DfT. I would guess that 3 to 4 times the number of people travelled yesterday than on a normal Sunday. So with the greatly increased income and the services supplied being near to the Sunday normal, someone somwhere must be sitting on a huge profit.

Not to mention that due to major crowds expected, station staff were incrased along with external secuirty staff employed by some TOC's that are sure it bite into any additional funds created. Yesterday it was a case off all hands on deck at certain times of the day.

 

[bb21]

We're not in the 70's any more, the work force need to be more agile. I would be out of a job if I wasn't!

They just reflect the times and industry I am in. My choice - remember why your there, to provide a service. The fact that your customers are stuck with no choice shouldn't be a reason not to move with the times.

I am not trying to offend anyone with this stance, it's just thAt in other industries if the product doesn't meet the needs of the customer they can go elsewhere. Look what happened to British Leyland.

Staff worked according to what their contracts say. Is that not how your industry works? Or are you telling me that in your industry people voluntarily work extra hours even when they are not required to do so?

I don't understand where your gripe is. It has already been explained to you that it is not a requirement in some people's contracts to work on a bank holiday. Maybe you should put yourself in other people's shoes before making certain claims.

Your anger should probably be directed at people who drew up those contracts than those that are simply following them.

 

[IanXC]

If 90 drivers are rostered to work a Sunday, weather voluntary or compulsory or within the working week, then if they need an extra 10 drivers to work extra services then they still need volunteers to work overtime and I can't see how you can argue that people should be forced to work their days off (although I'm aware some industries do try).

Could the TOC not roster 100 drivers in this example, if they did it at the same time as the roster was first published? Or are there contracts/agreements which would prevent that?

 

[GB]

They just reflect the times and industry I am in. My choice - remember why your there, to provide a service. The fact that your customers are stuck with no choice shouldn't be a reason not to move with the times.

Thats brilliant. On the one hand your saying its your choice in what you do and in the other you are criticising others for exercising their choice.

...and yet again it appears we are delving into the realms if criticising staff for working to their contract...ala the sunday working agreements.

I swear, if it were up to some passengers rail staff would be working 365 days a year:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could the TOC not roster 100 drivers in this example, if they did it at the same time as the roster was first published? Or are there contracts/agreements which would prevent that?

I think the example was hypothetical. You could roster 100 drivers, but what if you then needed 110?

 

[reb0118]

Do the get demand wrong or just take the view we don't lose revenue if the train is overcrowded?

There is a potential revenue loss when trains are overcrowded - firstly the guards can't get through the trains to get the revenue (not all of it is collected at the barriers at the main station). Secondly having overcrowded trains reflects poorly on the travelling public, having to stand or even not being able to sit together let alone being able to board the train in the first place does not help to generate repeat business. Also having to queue up to buy your ticket at the barriers (sometimes queuing longer than your actual train journey) doesn't help.

To be fair rolling stock issues are not always the TOCs fault. We all know that franchising & the leasing of train sets are down to the DfT & the devolved assemblies where the bottom line is more important than common sense right now.

 

[142094]

Secondly having overcrowded trains reflects poorly on the travelling public, having to stand or even not being able to sit together let alone being able to board the train in the first place does not help to generate repeat business. Also having to queue up to buy your ticket at the barriers (sometimes queuing longer than your actual train journey) doesn't help.

I'd like to think that most people would be understanding why there was overcrowding on a couple of days due to a special one-off event, and wouldn't be put off from using the train again.

 

[dk1]

I'd like to think that most people would be understanding why there was overcrowding on a couple of days due to a special one-off event, and wouldn't be put off from using the train again.

Exactly. Just like the pouring rain wouldn't put you off going to London again. There where some pinch points & yes some TOCs could have done better but on the whole everything worked fantastically well & the massive crowd was dispatched safely.

 

[gazthomas]

Staff worked according to what their contracts say. Is that not how your industry works? Or are you telling me that in your industry people voluntarily work extra hours even when they are not required to do so?

I don't understand where your gripe is. It has already been explained to you that it is not a requirement in some people's contracts to work on a bank holiday. Maybe you should put yourself in other people's shoes before making certain claims.

Your anger should probably be directed at people who drew up those contracts than those that are simply following them.

I am not angry, maybe they should hire people who want to work Sundays! Problem over!

 

[GB]

It is the employers who set out the conditions and requirements for employment. If they have advertised a job that states in the contract of employment that Sunday working is voluntary, who's fault is that?

Hypothetically you could hire only people that want to work sunday, but you would still have to give them time off at some other point. Given that Sundays are still the quietest days on the network, I don't see what you would gain.

 

[OuterDistant]

Could you check your math please and a translation into English would help me understand the post.

"Math" is "maths" in English

 

[ainsworth74]

It is the employers who set out the conditions and requirements for employment. If they have advertised a job that states in the contract of employment that Sunday working is voluntary, who's fault is that?

But at the same time what would the Unions have to say if they did decide that all new employees contracts would include Sunday as part of the working week? I'm sure they'd quite like to put Sunday within the working week for new hires but I'm similarly quite sure that the Unions would have a fit.

 

[The Colonel]

As we passed Clapham Junction there was an empty 10-car Class 444 heading to Waterloo which had 'Jubilee Special' on it. It would appear as if it was some belated attempt by SWT to run an extra train to cater for the demand. Though what it was I have no idea as there was no indication of any extra service being run either at Waterloo or on SWT web-site.

It looked like there were about 5 or 6 extras run in the evening from an email I saw today - IIRC a couple to Bournemouth and round the Hounslow loop and a couple of others, can't remeber exactly. Did look like a belated attempt to cope with the crowds though. My RDR yesterday advised that some services were full & standing, but today was very quiet. In all honesty only about 6 tickets I sold today couldn't have been bought at a TVM. Tomorrow may be more heavily loaded with the events starting earlier.

 

[Simon11]

I've also wondered that, it would involve a lot of negioating with the unions to add sunday as part of the working week and I'm sure the staff would want extra pay to change contracts, so its never going to be an option.

But why cant they change the t and c for new drivers? The staff can't complain as they either agree to the job or go elsewhere and very slowly you would get the staff onto 7 days weeks instead of paying overtime on sundays which increases the cost of running the railway, less time managing who works sunday and a better service for passengers.

Does anyone have infomation about this sort of thing?

 

[Skimble19]

In FCC's defence they ran a "Saturday-ish" service on Sunday and Monday and are running one again today. I know the GN route on Sunday for instance had a half hourly service on the PBO route for the morning southbound and the afternoon/evening northbound - normally hourly, with a couple of extra fast services here and there. Similar service levels happened yesterday and will happen today, although there will be more fast services (more like a standard weekday).

 

[A-driver]

As for the Sunday's overtime argument, the unions are actually the ones who want Sundays in the working week as it means the company need more drivers and so more union members. It's the drivers who often don't want it and the TOCs themselves as more staff means more training costs, national insurance, sick pay, holiday pay etc. TOCs like relying on overtime as in tearms of hr it is the cheaper option.

Not all TOCs have voluntary Sundays and it's generally not a problem with those that do as there are normally more drivers after working extra Sundays for overtime than those not wishing to work any Sunday's. The majority of the time cancelled Sunday services are due to a general lack of staff-fccs thameslink often suffers lack of crew on Sundays but their main drivers depot (Bedford) is pretty much only half full so they struggle to cover work all the time.

The other problem with Sunday work is that many TOCs use them as turn around days to get from late shifts to earlies so if you finish at 0230 sat night/sun morning and start again Monday at 0430 then you only have 2 hours avaliable to work Sunday anyway and that is no use at all.

 

[Greenback]

As for the Sunday's overtime argument, the unions are actually the ones who want Sundays in the working week as it means the company need more drivers and so more union members. It's the drivers who often don't want it and the TOCs themselves as more staff means more training costs, national insurance, sick pay, holiday pay etc. TOCs like relying on overtime as in tearms of hr it is the cheaper option.

Spot on. It is cheaper to rely on overtime than to increase staff numbers to provide true 7 day rostered working. Some employees don't want Sundays included, some do, but it has long been an ASLEF aspiration to have all drviers (to name just one group of staff) on contracts that include Sunday in the working week.

Not all TOCs have voluntary Sundays and it's generally not a problem with those that do as there are normally more drivers after working extra Sundays for overtime than those not wishing to work any Sunday's. The majority of the time cancelled Sunday services are due to a general lack of staff-fccs thameslink often suffers lack of crew on Sundays but their main drivers depot (Bedford) is pretty much only half full so they struggle to cover work all the time.

Unions and employees can take advantage of voluntary Sundays when negotiations are taking place, but generally there is not a shortage of volunteers as you say.

The other problem with Sunday work is that many TOCs use them as turn around days to get from late shifts to earlies so if you finish at 0230 sat night/sun morning and start again Monday at 0430 then you only have 2 hours avaliable to work Sunday anyway and that is no use at all.

A lot of staff are unable to work a Sunday even if they want to because their rostered hours on other days simply don't allow it. The situation is not quite as simple as 'Make them work Sundays'!

 

[SWT_USER]

It looked like there were about 5 or 6 extras run in the evening from an email I saw today - IIRC a couple to Bournemouth and round the Hounslow loop and a couple of others, can't remeber exactly. Did look like a belated attempt to cope with the crowds though. My RDR yesterday advised that some services were full & standing, but today was very quiet. In all honesty only about 6 tickets I sold today couldn't have been bought at a TVM. Tomorrow may be more heavily loaded with the events starting earlier.

I was meeting a friend on Sunday and he said the Hounslow trains were rammed. 1tph is a pitiful service anyway and with all the extra people travelling from areas like Chiswick it was always going to be chaos.

 

[Failed Unit]

To add to Greenbacks point some operators and depots have no Sunday service. I wonder if Lincoln drivers would like a 7 day week?

 

[millemille]

There's two reasons that I know of from my 20 odd years working in ops and maintenance (before somebody gets all snotty about non railway staff daring to express an opinion (sic)) as to why enhancing a Saturday or Sunday service is difficult.

Staff rostering and "Hidden". As I'm sure everyone is aware, anyone in a Safety Critical position can work a maximum of 13 consecutive days in any 14 day period. If a member of staff's roster uses a Saturday or Sunday as break to allow them to comply with Hidden, either retrospectively or prospectively, then you have a problem.

Rolling stock exam "bunching". Any maintenance depot can only do a limited number of exams per shift/day - due to to yard/shed space and staffing levels. Short term and Very Short Term Planners work very hard to manage unit mileages/days in service to ensure that a steady number of exams are due every shift and use low mileage diagrams or not running units at weekends to manage this. If you run a significantly greater number of units to bolster a service at a weekend you run the risk of adding too much mileage/days in service and needing to do more exams in a day/shift than is possible at some time in the future. This means you end up with units out of service awaiting maintenance and it can take days or even weeks to clear the knock on effects.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks for the above, I had half suspected mileage / engine hours may be the issue here. I am sure a typical Sunday diagram could quite easily add 300 miles or significant hours.

 

[Flywaver]

On XC we have committed Sundays.If there is cover you can take it off otherwise it's declined.Ive worked all the jubilee and it's been pretty dead.We don't have Bank Holidays so noone can moan we have a a reduced service..

 

[Failed Unit]

But in the railway, many routes don't operate on Sunday. As I said not much point in having Sunday as part of the working week when you only need a low % of the workforce needed.

 

[silverfoxcc]

I also include the numskulls and accountants who run the service for the shareholders and not the 'passengers'
As an example look at the forward planning out of Liv St When Spurs are at home.
It is only recently that they are putting 8 car trains on, but fail to give the Stansteds and addition stop at Northumberland Park Esp on the up line to clear the crowds. And yet works ore scheduled on the home game days, by shutting down the Enfield Town line thus reducin capacity. Hello.... its not like you didnt know he fixtures are published in June for the season.
I wont go onto the proposed stadium problems but someone isnt doing joined up thinking somewhere ,when you look at the answers they give

 

[EM2]

Day 1 21.30-06.10 (day 2)
Day 2 15.45-00.25 (day 3)

Well, there's your first problem. Because of the Hidden Report into the Clapham Junction crash, safety critical staff on the railway CANNOT book on less than twelve hours after booking off.
So if you finish at 06:10, the earliest you could book on would be 18:10.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And yet works ore scheduled on the home game days, by shutting down the Enfield Town line thus reducin capacity. Hello.... its not like you didnt know he fixtures are published in June for the season.

The works that are sometimes planned up to a year ahead, you mean? The ones that Network Rail and LUL inform the FA of before the fixtures are compiled? Those works?

 

[455driver]

So because 1.5million people want to go on a knees up in London at the same time every member of rail-staff should forgo their contracted rest days (that happen to tie in with the kids being off school) and work!

I didnt work Sunday as it was my day off (I have never worked a rest day although I will do overtime if required) but did work Monday and today (for flat money as I am rostered to work these days).

Everyone moaning about rostering drivers and guards to work extra trains etc should really sit down with a pencil and work out the actual costs involved, its pretty much all on the web if you look instead of just moaning on about staff refusing to work etc.

If you were told you were working every day of your long weekend what would you do, work it and say thank you, work it and say "must get another job", or say you can fu um go away its my days off and I will do what I want.

Some "person" mentioned that we rail-staff work "to serve the public" or some other bull manure, well it might surprise you that I (and most of the people I work with) work to pay the mortgage, bills and put food on the table etc, while I do enjoy my job I aint no servant to anyone.

As for "why cant more staff be rostered" etc, the rosters are worked out every May and December, on Sunday 20 May 12 I started work at 0810 and on Sunday 02 December 12 I will start work at 0730, that is how it works, extra staff cannot be forced to work just because there is some do or other going on in London.

Oh on SWT Sundays are part of the working week so the same number of staff are available every Sunday of the year, subject to holidays etc!