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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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richw

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With no money coming in from paid employment, do we all revert to a hunter-gatherer existence in order to live as the last time this occurred in Britain, your apt word of "chillin" certainly had a loud ring of truth in it in the days when the last ice sheets in Britain were slowly receding northwards.

My robot butchered a pig today, your robot grew some potatoes and veg.
I will swap you some pork chops to feed your family for some potatoes and veg to accompany my pork chops. No money, no tax.

Joking aside that is what happens in the area of Greece my grandad lives in. The villagers all swap products with other villagers. No cash swaps hands between those villagers and no tax is paid.
They make their taxable income by selling to tourists and the few villagers without their own products. Their taxable income is low, but most live in the property and land that's been in their family for generations so no rent or mortgages, utility prices are ridiculously low. Their families are fed without money exchanging hands and thus tax is avoided.
I should add this is in a semi rural area, but on a tourist route around a mountainous area.
 
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TheKnightWho

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There is a well-known fact of politics that the losing side will always turn in on itself, blaming others in their own camp for their own failings. This has been the sole running theme throughout the entirety of Brexit's "victory", with Farage and Hannan rubbishing claims, Boris and Gove looking like deer in the headlights during their speeches, and a complete lack of a plan going forward.

Frankly, I'm just reminded of the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant at the end of the first Indiana Jones. They finally got what they wanted too, didn't they?
 
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Gutfright

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With no money coming in from paid employment, do we all revert to a hunter-gatherer existence in order to live as the last time this occurred in Britain, your apt word of "chillin" certainly had a loud ring of truth in it in the days when the last ice sheets in Britain were slowly receding northwards.

We've got machines producing an abundance of everything we can possibly need. Let's ignore that and go out and be hunter-gatherers.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Frankly, I'm just reminded of the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant at the end of the first Indiana Jones. They finally got what they wanted too, didn't they?

I was wondering how long it would take for you to revert to "everyone who has a different opinion to me is Hitler".

Keep banging that drum as long as you want. See how far it gets you.
 
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TheKnightWho

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I was wondering how long it would take for you to revert to "everyone who has a different opinion to me is Hitler".

Keep banging that drum as long as you want. See how far it gets you.

What the hell are you on about? Have you ever watched Indiana Jones?

I've noticed this with you too: you speak a lot more than you read.
 
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Gutfright

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What the hell are you on about? Have you ever watched Indiana Jones?

In the interests of healing the divides that threaten to tear this country asunder surely - surely - we can all unite and agree that Kingdom of the Crystal Skull sucked sh*t from a dead donkey's arse?
 

Giugiaro

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Good evening everyone!

I apologise for the inconvenience of an EU citizen to meddle with such a crucial theme highly discussed by British nationals.

I'm just pointing out a thread I started back in 2013 regarding immigration. It's an excellent read and may be interesting to see if there have been changes in opinion in the last three years. There's a note to refugees as well, which I've found very interesting, in a time were Europe wasn't going through the same scale of problems it's currently going through with the Refugee Crisis.

The thread is as follows. Note that it has been closed already:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93000


It's a shame that, finally after getting the opportunity to study in the UK for Erasmus, such referendum had to had such catastrophic results. I'm not even sure if the programme is secured anymore in the UK... and although this may turn out to be financially advantageous for me (€ to £), I'm afraid I may end up being treated harshly by local citizens. I don't feel safe anymore about betting so enthusiastically in the UK... :(
 

TheKnightWho

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In the interests of healing the divides that threaten to tear this country asunder surely - surely - we can all unite and agree that Kingdom of the Crystal Skull sucked sh*t from a dead donkey's arse?

I can agree with you on that one.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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We've got machines producing an abundance of everything we can possibly need. Let's ignore that and go out and be hunter-gatherers.

Where do these machines obtain their supplies in order to fulfil their stated purpose and who will be financing these supplies.

This argument of yours has a frightening similarity to the storyline of the Terminator films, where the machines then decided they had no need for any human beings.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Suffice to say, in 10 or 20 years, there's going to be a politician telling us all that robots are stealing our jobs, and there will be an uprising against the machines.

Let's hope they're not built by a company called Skynet...!

Correction. Skynet was the product, the manufacturer was Cyberdyne Systems [/pedant]

My robot butchered a pig today, your robot grew some potatoes and veg.
I will swap you some pork chops to feed your family for some potatoes and veg to accompany my pork chops. No money, no tax.

Joking aside that is what happens in the area of Greece my grandad lives in. The villagers all swap products with other villagers. No cash swaps hands between those villagers and no tax is paid.
They make their taxable income by selling to tourists and the few villagers without their own products. Their taxable income is low, but most live in the property and land that's been in their family for generations so no rent or mortgages, utility prices are ridiculously low. Their families are fed without money exchanging hands and thus tax is avoided.
I should add this is in a semi rural area, but on a tourist route around a mountainous area.

While this may seem idyllic, almost utopian perhaps, it breaks down as soon as anyone needs access to essential public services like health or education. And perhaps they expect a public pension too. But if tax revenues are low because people find ways to avoid it then those things become unaffordable. That is a genuine issue in Greece and was highlighted when they needed all those bailouts. Leaving aside whether they should have been in the Euro in the first place there was the considerable problem of the Greek Exchequer having minimal funds available because Greeks don't like paying tax.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Sounds fun, although there's nowt wrong with blondes. Who needs chat up lines when you have chloroform anyway?

There are some unfortunates who are so old that they represent the old adage of when running after nubile blondes, then not being able to remember what to do next when they catch up to them...:D

I remember the well known iconic Irish folk group, The Dubliners, singing a song with one line saying ....
"Maids when you're young, never wed an old man"....:oops:
 

muz379

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When negotiating with the EU, they're not going to consider GDP per capita or the Human Development Index. They're going to consider only the value of trade with the EU, which is what concerns them.

The Norwegian oil fields cannot be moved or replicated in other locations in the EU in the same way that the institutions and facilities behind the goods and service based economy can be .
That's the big problem, there is nothing to tell "like it is". The electorate have voted to leave the EU, but not indicated what they want instead. They've voted against something they don't want, but not what they do want.
.
Aint that the truth . In all honesty we do not know the true numbers behind what mandate has been given

We do not know out of the 17 million leave voters how many are
1)People like my friend who saw the trading relationship we had with the EU as being too restrictive and desired to revert to WTO rules instead - No issue with immigration whatsoever and no issue with the bureaucracy
2)How many are the racist xenophobes we have all seen on tv claiming to have voted to get rid of Muslims etc etc who want to close the borders and withdraw from all international trade starting today
3)How many wanted to regain sovereignty in principle and so revert back to WTO rules as that is the only way we can fully regain our sovereignty form the EU and its massively overarching bureaucratic processes and institutions
4)How many just wanted to express anti establishment sentiment and could not find it within themselves to instead wait for a general election or write to their MP
5)Left wing brexiters who wanted to leave because of the anti socialist nature of the EU
6)A combination of any of 1-5 who have now realized the epic mistake they have made and so the best option is to retain EEA membership , free movement and our massive budget contribution towards the EU . Only without regaining any sovereignty , democracy or control of immigration .

We also do not know of the 16 million leave voters how many are
1)Fully signed up europhiles like some of my friends doing masters and PHD's in EU law , people that slept breathed and eat eu law and politics
2)People like me who where really indifferent to the EU but felt that leaving was an unnecessary step which would cause more economic harm than good and lead us into EEA membership which is less democracy more doing what we are told
3)People who thought we could reform from within
4)People just happy with the status quo and unprepared to challenge the establishment because experts know best .
5)People who where undecided so decided the safest option was to remain


Clearly there is no consensus and no mandate for what kind of exit we want to see and that surely needs to be addressed .

For the 48% the obvious option going forward is EEA membership because that is closest towards what most of us want which was to remain a member of the EU . But depending on what proportion of the 52% are represented by the different groups that could be actually the exact opposite of the majority of the 17 million and could have disastrous consequences at the next election for any party that gets behind EEA membership .
Interesting, Boris the Opportunist just put out a new piece of propaganda in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

Quite a few bizarre things in it,

In addition to the bizzare things you pointed to I find it bizzare that he points to us having closer collaberation with europe in some areas . I think that interesting given he has just won a campaign of exactly the opposite . He also goes on about us continuing to have full access to the single market , and the rights of EU citizens and British citizens to remain the same . Does he really think he can negotiate for this whilst also negotiating for the immigration controls he laters goes onto allude to .
 

DelayRepay

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This implies Boris plans to either:
1) Completely ignore the result and continue as a member of the EU or
2) Have the UK join the EEA instead of the EU, retaining free movement of people.

Now I have a question...

We were warned by Michael Gove and his chums that Turkey was going to join the EU, a million Turks would be coming to steal our jobs and there was nothing we could do about it.

I understand that as a member of the EU, the UK could have used its veto to prevent Turkey joining the EU.

However, as a member of the EEA we will be subject to free movement of people and won't have a veto to block new countries joining the EU.

So now, in Boris' brave new world, how soon is it before those million turks arrive on our shores, steal all our job, claim all our benefits, take all our council houses and break our NHS? And what are Boris, Gove and their UKIP chums planing to do about this?
 
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anme

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I'd suggest the opposite! Leave won't be happy because they'll still be tied down to all of the EU regulations, payment, and freedom of movement. Remain won't be happy because we'd have to pay more, and would loose the ability to have any input into the rules.

Absolutely true. But it's still the only sane option, isn't it?

BTW I'm very happy that we're finally talking about what happens next. I've been asking this for months, but leavers either ignored the question or argued that it "doesn't make sense" or "can't be discussed". What better illustration is there of the mentality of these people?
 

radamfi

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The BBC didn't quote this part of Boris' text:

“Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry."

So how on earth does he expect the EU to accept free movement for UK citizens whilst imposing a points system in the other direction?
 

anme

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Sounds fun, although there's nowt wrong with blondes. Who needs chat up lines when you have chloroform anyway?

So as well as racism, xenophobia, ignorance and idiocy, we now have misogyny on this thread too? What a great advert for Britain you people are.
 

deltic

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Johnson's comments today clearly show that he wants to effectively remain in the EU - supporting free movement of labour and trade and saying concerns about immigration were not the reason people voted leave - his position was always vote out - renegotiate our position and remain in the EU.

I can see a lot of leave voters being even more disillusioned with the Westminster elite - UKIP might clean up the north at the next election
 

anme

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No. Johnson says a number of contradictory things in that article. He is in no position the guarantee the rights of anyone. I actually found that article very scary, especially as he doesn't say he wants to the UK to *remain* in the single market. That means he doesn't want freedom of movement to continue, which is a disaster for many the people who have exercised the right so far, and would like to exercise the right in the future.
 

Senex

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I'd suggest the opposite! Leave won't be happy because they'll still be tied down to all of the EU regulations, payment, and freedom of movement. Remain won't be happy because we'd have to pay more, and would loose the ability to have any input into the rules.
That seems to be a very fair summary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do Brexit simply want us to be out of EVERYTHING apart from that WTO?
There were clearly some who wanted exactly that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Johnson's comments today clearly show that he wants to effectively remain in the EU - supporting free movement of labour and trade and saying concerns about immigration were not the reason people voted leave - his position was always vote out - renegotiate our position and remain in the EU.

I can see a lot of leave voters being even more disillusioned with the Westminster elite - UKIP might clean up the north at the next election
Boris is in sight of getting what he was after, the PM's job, and so as far as he's concerned, job's done. Why should he worry about the details?
 

phoenixcronin

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Boris is in sight of getting what he was after, the PM's job, and so as far as he's concerned, job's done. Why should he worry about the details?

He'll leave the details to the "experts" who he railed against so fiercely during the campaign.
 

Senex

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Constitutionally, our MPs are representatives, not delegates (which is why, amongst other things, there is still no move to assisted euthanasia even though a majority of the electorate apparently want it). But as a result of this referendum they are obliged to act as delegates as far as getting out of the EU is concerned, even though a large majority of them, if they were acting as representatives, would oppose leaving.

So given that there is no clear road-map in front of them, and the details of what the Leave side want seem to be getting ever less clear, how far can MPs exercise their conscience over the multitude of steps that will have to be taken and how far are they bound to view each single practical vote in the light of the guiding principle of the need to leave?

And how far would an early general election help anyone if many candidates in both major parties would be obliged to stand on a platform saying they were going to pursue a policy very much against their own consciences? Do people really think we could get back to a nice bi-partite choice of, say, Labour = we'll stay in (despite the vote in our heartlands) and Tories = we'll get right out? (Or it could be the other way round, of course ....)
 

ExRes

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I've thought about this before and it doesn't worry me. In this scenario, the cost of products and services would decline to almost zero because there are so few humans that need to be paid, so people wouldn't actually need much money to survive.

Is this your idea of an end of the world film script?
 

phoenixcronin

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Over the past few hours I've become more and more convinced that we wont actually end up leaving the EU
 
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DarloRich

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Johnson's comments today clearly show that he wants to effectively remain in the EU - supporting free movement of labour and trade and saying concerns about immigration were not the reason people voted leave

But immigration is precisely why people voted leave in many areas! Saying numbers wont be controlled by leaving is not going to play well with many pro brexit voters.
 

radamfi

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There should be arrangements that UK citizens who want to maintain their EU citizenship can do so.
 

anme

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But immigration is precisely why people voted leave in many areas! Saying numbers wont be controlled by leaving is not going to play well with many pro brexit voters.

We have 48% of the electorate. If we can attract 2.1% more (1 in 20 leave voters would be more than enough) we will have a majority.
 

Gutfright

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There should be arrangements that UK citizens who want to maintain their EU citizenship can do so.

I've actually had the same thought, but I'm not sure how it could be achieved. Perhaps all the Brits who opt in to the EU could pay an additional tax which goes directly to Brussels and which would allow them freedom of movement and the right to elect an MEP?
 

YorkshireBear

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I don't see how 52% is a mandate. Farage said himself he would want a re-run if exit had 48%.

It demonstrates a divided nation, definitely not a mandate.
 
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