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Gold card refused replacement
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SWTCommuter
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This is a very long shot indeed, but as the ticket was paid for with a loan from the OP's employer it may technically be the employer's property and covered by the employer's insurance. It wouldn't do any harm to ask the HR department.
Daz28
Member
The FGW website, and in particular their season ticket renewal leaflet still has these conditions listed for lost or stolen passes:
2. Lost or Stolen Tickets. If your Season Ticket is
lost or stolen during its validity, you must
immediately report the loss to the office where it
was issued. You will be asked to complete and sign
a duplicate application form. Subject to the
conditions shown in the National Rail Conditions
of Carriage and an administration fee, your ticket
could be replaced. Should you subsequently find
your lost Season Ticket this MUST be returned to
a First Great Western station. If you are unfortunate
enough to lose your ticket for the second time
during its validity, you will need to buy a new
Season Ticket at the normal price subject to the
conditions detailed in Section H of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage. In any event, no more than
two duplicate Season Tickets will be issued to the
same customer within any 12 month period. Please
note - refunds are NOT USUALLY given on duplicate
Season Tickets in accordance with the Conditions
of Carriage.
According to those conditions, I believe the OP is entitled to a replacement, since this is the first time they have lost the current season ticket, and only the second time in a 12 month period.
The NRE conditions may well be different, but if the ticket was purchased from FGW, then their website should be definitive.
2. Lost or Stolen Tickets. If your Season Ticket is
lost or stolen during its validity, you must
immediately report the loss to the office where it
was issued. You will be asked to complete and sign
a duplicate application form. Subject to the
conditions shown in the National Rail Conditions
of Carriage and an administration fee, your ticket
could be replaced. Should you subsequently find
your lost Season Ticket this MUST be returned to
a First Great Western station. If you are unfortunate
enough to lose your ticket for the second time
during its validity, you will need to buy a new
Season Ticket at the normal price subject to the
conditions detailed in Section H of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage. In any event, no more than
two duplicate Season Tickets will be issued to the
same customer within any 12 month period. Please
note - refunds are NOT USUALLY given on duplicate
Season Tickets in accordance with the Conditions
of Carriage.
According to those conditions, I believe the OP is entitled to a replacement, since this is the first time they have lost the current season ticket, and only the second time in a 12 month period.
The NRE conditions may well be different, but if the ticket was purchased from FGW, then their website should be definitive.
Yes, they can remove a season ticket (or kill the card entirely) so you will not be able to touch in or out without killing it. Then you can keep the card but it will be useless.
The Gold Record Card is not valid for travel on its own, so this shows why smartcards will solve this problem in the future - as well as stopping someone from actually fraudulently getting a replacement to give to someone else.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Er, this doesn't help the customer at all. FGW have refused the second replacement, as the first one was recorded as lost, not stolen.
Not relevant at all. The text Daz28 posted clearly refers to a ticket that is "lost or stolen during its validity". The terms usually are interchangeable as it's not always clear how the ticket went missing. In this case the OP is pretty certain it was stolen; we don't know how it was recorded by the TOC but it looks like they are interpreting the 'two duplicates in 12 months' condition in its strictest sense despite what it says on their website.
My advice FWIW
1. Write to FGW pointing out you purchased a new ticket in Jun 2011. As it says on their website you are limited to 1 replacement during the validity of the ticket and as it is a new ticket you have not yet had a replacement for this one.
2. Consider going to the police and reporting the theft of the coat. I know it happened a long time ago but there is a lot of money at stake for you and if you have a crime ref it will help you a lot.
3. The worst case scenario for you is that they stick to the one replecement each 12 months. However as you say you got the previous replacement in January 2011 they you should be able to get a replacement in Jan 2012 when the 12 months is up. So you would have to buy ticket for the next 2.5 months until then.
Good luck.
1. Write to FGW pointing out you purchased a new ticket in Jun 2011. As it says on their website you are limited to 1 replacement during the validity of the ticket and as it is a new ticket you have not yet had a replacement for this one.
2. Consider going to the police and reporting the theft of the coat. I know it happened a long time ago but there is a lot of money at stake for you and if you have a crime ref it will help you a lot.
3. The worst case scenario for you is that they stick to the one replecement each 12 months. However as you say you got the previous replacement in January 2011 they you should be able to get a replacement in Jan 2012 when the 12 months is up. So you would have to buy ticket for the next 2.5 months until then.
Good luck.
Thank you - i have sent my letter of appeal and am going to contact my local police force tomorrow and ask for their advice about retrospectively reporting something stolen as well as asking if in my second case the cab driver did not hand this into lost property this also constitutes theft.
A long shot but I will explore all avenues.
I will keep you posted
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Hmm, I think you may have a point actually. The current season ticket has been lost only once, hasn't it?
Either way, I refuse to believe the OP can't be helped. I'm really sure we can get her ticket back.
I would be interested in which insurance company that you use, as the last time I checked with an insurance broker (real people in a real office, not a call centre), they were unable to find a policy that would cover a £4k season ticket.
The problem is that most policies treat travel tickets as 'money' and have a fairly low limit (e.g. £500) for loss of 'money' even if there is a higher personal belongings limit. And I can understand why the insurance companies wouldn't cover it. There is no way on earth that I would carry £4k in cash in my wallet, but that is what I must do if I want a season ticket.
The problem with issuing replacements seems to be due to the train company not properly checking season tickets, and deciding to pass the burden from them to the passenger. Personally I find this unacceptable.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
With an equally hesitant "Hmmm", I share that view.
The OP has apparantly sent her letter, so we can't influence its contents, but it maybe deserves a follow up purely for clarification?
I don't feel much prospect for sucess in this line on investigation either, but it might be worth noting that the value of the Card at the time of loss will surely be adjusted to its residual value at the time of loss, (in accounting terms, the £4k is a pre-payment) and any claim would refer to its value at that time.
If I had an item worth £4,000 I'd take good care of it. I'd take good care of it by not keeping it in a wallet that can easily be lost or stolen. As has been pointed out, it would be hard to get insurance to cover the loss of such a large amount carried on one's person. But I HAVE to keep it in the wallet to show to rail staff! Now if I buy a ticket each week or month I limit the amount I can lose.
But surely it's to the TOC's advantage to sell longer-term tickets- or is it? Do they want to discourage the use of annual tickets?
The OP is being penalised a huge sum of money due to the rail industry's inability to prevent fraudulent use of season tickets. Why in the name of sanity do I have to carry a photocard with my ticket if it's not to prevent anyone else using it?
It's a pity the OP doesn't have the option of driving instead.
If I lose a credit card I expect to face some inconvenience and cost. I don't expect the bank to confiscate the balance in my account on the assumption I'm involved in fraud, without going to the bother of prosecuting.
But surely it's to the TOC's advantage to sell longer-term tickets- or is it? Do they want to discourage the use of annual tickets?
The OP is being penalised a huge sum of money due to the rail industry's inability to prevent fraudulent use of season tickets. Why in the name of sanity do I have to carry a photocard with my ticket if it's not to prevent anyone else using it?
It's a pity the OP doesn't have the option of driving instead.
If I lose a credit card I expect to face some inconvenience and cost. I don't expect the bank to confiscate the balance in my account on the assumption I'm involved in fraud, without going to the bother of prosecuting.
I accept the industry doesn't do enough to protect against fraud, which is odd when they can pick on easy targets to dish out PFs, yet can't proactively prevent someone using a stolen season ticket worth thousands.
A season should have the serial number on the magstrip (I presume it's too big to fit, as there's very little data that can be stored) so it can be killed when it goes through a gate. If someone always waved the ticket to a member of staff day in, day out, I'd expect that after a few days a member of staff would ask to check the ticket (if only to suggest it is replaced, FOC, with a new one if the magstrip didn't work).
However, the rules are there and must be accepted when you buy the ticket. I am sure you could get insurance, but at extra cost. For the first claim, you'd be covered - but as soon as I got my first replacement, I'd be phoning around to find someone that would cover me. I am sure some insurance company would underwrite the risk.
A word of advice though; if you have your season ticket stolen - for goodness sake report it to the police! Until this is done, the TOC can't even prosecute someone who continues to use it as no crime has been reported. The OP is therefore actually helping such a fraud take place, so it could easily seem suspicious.
A season should have the serial number on the magstrip (I presume it's too big to fit, as there's very little data that can be stored) so it can be killed when it goes through a gate. If someone always waved the ticket to a member of staff day in, day out, I'd expect that after a few days a member of staff would ask to check the ticket (if only to suggest it is replaced, FOC, with a new one if the magstrip didn't work).
However, the rules are there and must be accepted when you buy the ticket. I am sure you could get insurance, but at extra cost. For the first claim, you'd be covered - but as soon as I got my first replacement, I'd be phoning around to find someone that would cover me. I am sure some insurance company would underwrite the risk.
A word of advice though; if you have your season ticket stolen - for goodness sake report it to the police! Until this is done, the TOC can't even prosecute someone who continues to use it as no crime has been reported. The OP is therefore actually helping such a fraud take place, so it could easily seem suspicious.
Old Timer
Established Member
All well and fine if you are prepared to queue for extended periods at barriers whilst the details are checked. If you do a proper check this restricts passage to about 12 passengers per minute maximum. This assumes the photocard bears any resemblance to the holder of course without a second glance.
And then of course there are the photocards which do not look like the owner as they change appearance. What then ? Would you be complaining if the season ticket and ID card were withdrawn pending investigation ?
Would you be complaining about the need to regularly repalce the photo to match changes of appearance ?
Photo ID checks are fine on trains but at barriers they cause delay.
We already have threads from people whinging about the few seconds delay that passing through an automatic barrier line takes.
Would someone like to decide what the travelling public would actually like ?
Frankly I do rather wish that the Railway went to smart cards as soon as possible so that we can get around these issues for once and for all. Obviously the costs of that would be reflected in higher fares but at least it would stop a lot of whinging at source.
I work in the insurance industry and I'm struggling to find someone! As others have said, 'travel tickets' are normally defined under 'Money' along with cash and the like. Most household policies have limits well below £4,000 for this cover, many are around the £500 mark as standard.
It looks like First Group have an insurance scheme for bus season tickets, covering up to 2 replacements, but I can't find any details of premiums on their web sites or anything about rail season tickets.
I think anyone wanting to insure a season ticket would have to declare it as 'valuables' to their insurance company and pay a hefty premium - something like £20-£30 per £1,000 of value - to cover it, if the insurers allow high value possessions at all. Also, as DaveNewcastle rightly points out, the value of the ticket is decreasing daily so insuring a £4,000 ticket on day 1 would only pay out the value of a 6-month season on day 180, etc. It's also likely that you can only make one claim per year - an underlying principle of insurance is that once the insured item is lost, replacements may not automatically be covered unless a further premium is paid.
Absolutely!
Say my ticket is worth £2,000 and the premium is £30 per £1,000 - that's £60.
That's already made a big hole in the money I save by buying annually.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And how long does it take to check the ticket is not out of date and for the correct route? I really don't think a glance at the photo would add much to that.
[/QUOTE]
Frankly I do rather wish that the Railway went to smart cards as soon as possible so that we can get around these issues for once and for all. Obviously the costs of that would be reflected in higher fares but at least it would stop a lot of whinging at source.[/QUOTE]
Given the amount of fraud that does exist and the cost in staff time of dealing with it I can't see it would cost more to have a robust and effective anti-fraud system.
There seems to be an inability of some posters to place themselves in the shoes of the OP. "whinging"? Wouldn't you "whinge" if you were presented with a bill for £4,000 for a service you'd already paid for?
If I lose my work pass I don't expect to lose my job. If I lose the receipt for my rent I don't expect to have to pay it again. If I lose my credit card I don't expect to lose all the money in my bank account. If my house burns down or my car is stolen, yes, I accept that I might never recover the loss unless I've insured against it. But I CAN insure against that - and I'm not obliged to carry my car or house in my jacket pocket.
OwlMan
Established Member
There are a lot of stations around the country that do not have barriers. Even with barriers anyone using a fraudalent season ticket will know how to use it without passing it through any barriers (one way being to buy short distance tickets to use in the barriers)
Old Timer
Established Member
Because there is a long established fraud pattern on the basis of "lost" season tickets.
There always has been and will continue to be so until some form of plastic smart ticket is introduced.
It is not a case of any "inability" at all.
Let me ask the same question I continually ask and no-one will answer.
Why is it that the ONLY industry or service provider that the public expect to provide unlimited free replacement tickets is the Railway ?
There is already provision for the replacement of ONE ticket which is more than reasonable, bearing in mind the number of people I have Prosecuted for using what was the "lost" ticket.
How many other times do you consider the Railway should replace a season ticket ? twice, three times, four times ?
How does gender have any relevance?
Old Timer
Established Member
These are completely incomparable and frankly do your argument no good whatsoever.
Arriva buses do not replace season tickets at all, Stagecoach will do so "in exceptional circumstances".
Dear Old Timer
I think enough people have responded to this but
1) if the railways treat season tickets as 'cash' then if i lose my bank card I expect them to replace it as many times as necessary. I have to go through some quite rigorous security checks to prove who I am to get my replacement but i can get it. If they expect fraud then i would expect them to allow representation and formally charge me for it (fraud is a crime is it not?). They can track 'suspicious activity as they have put in place the means to do so. My point (any many others) is that I am immediately penalised because the railways have not got this system in place. Is this my fault?
2) For all other tickets (to travel/gig tickets etc) I am offered the opportunity to buy insurance to cover the ticket if lost/gig gets cancelled etc. The railways do not offer this.
3) My ticket is a contract to travel (a document if you will). The contract starts when i buy my ticket. If i lose my ticket then I wouldn't expect this contract to be revoked without due cause. If I lost my mortgage document or my contract to live in my house (rental) I would expect to be able to get a replacement - i wouldn't expect to be evicted
I could take the analogy further but you yourself have admitted that the problem is the fact that there isn't sufficient measures in place to stop fraudulent ticket use. I am being penalised for this fact. What is the point of a photocard? If the railways are so bothered then offer the commuter insurance etc etc.
I will go on to say that the fact that FGW have accused me of being a criminal without allowing fair representation is a joke. You dismissed my earlier point about having pumped over £20k into this system. I pay £6000 that i have to carry about my person daily. I wouldn't carry this in cash. Would you?
EM2
Established Member
But none of these items that you talk about losing are equivalent to a season ticket, which, in effect, is £4k in cash. A season ticket is not a receipt for something, it is the thing itself.
You give the example of if you lose the receipt fro your rent. What if you lose your rent money?
The best advice is to keep your season ticket in a separate wallet, and keep that wallet in a zipped or fastened pocket, or at least a pocket that is not easily accessible. I tend to go for my shirt breast pocket.
Last edited:
John @ home
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2008
- Messages
- 5,148
Agreed.
That depends on which version of the Conditions is current. See post #16.
Both are currently in the public domain, with no note saying which proceeds the other, or which makes the other invalid. Therefore I'm pretty certain they both require honouring.
Old Timer
Established Member
Your bank card is a completely anomalous comparison as it can be stopped from use imemdiately. Your bank card is NOT cash it is a means of access to your money.
I can assure you that if your "lost" ticket is found in use that you can certainly expect a considerable amount of interest in yourself.
Your bank card will cease when you have no money or when you reach your overdraft limit, a railway season ticket cannot be stopped or its use prevented. You have already had ONE replacement, so you can hardly blame them for being shall we say slightly more interested in a claim for a second one so soon afterwards. DaveNewcastle quoted the words of Lady Bracknell - they remain appropriate
Maybe they should rather than simply issue you with a "free" replacement. Maybe paying an insurance premium may concentrate the mind. What %age would you suggest 10% 20% ?
You can already seek to cover the season ticket as a declared valuable on your home insurance, however you can expect a substantial premium not the "free" repalcement the Railway offers.
Absolutely right. You agreed to be bound by the terms and conditions, however you now want the Railway to be required to go over and above the terms and conditions you agreed. So it seems the Railway have to meet the terms and conditions absolutely and cannot alter them if it suits them to do so, but you can unilaterally demand that your are released from your agreement simply because it no longer suits you ? The loss of your ticket means that you cannot comply with the agreement you freely accepted. There is no "revocation without due cause". Nothing has been revoked, you are being asked to comply with the conditions of carriage which is to produce a valid ticket. You cannot therefore YOU are in breach of the contract you continually accuse the Railway of failing to comply with. Please demonstrate which part of the terms and conditions FGW is in breach of ?
Your mortgage example is again a completely incomparable comparison. Losing your documents would not result in you losing your house because the conditions are that you pay your rent. As long as you do so then you will not be evicted.
You are NOT being penalised. You entered into a very clear agreement with FGW. They did not have to replace your ticket for free but as a goodwill gesture they did. It is completely unreasonable to expect them to continually replace tickets that you seem unable to keep safe.
We could stop fraud pretty damn quick by locking down stations and especially destination stations and examine every ticket being offered. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you would be amongst the first to complain loudly about the resultant delays in exiting the station. YOU as the passenger can either accept delays whilst ticket checks are made or you can accept that you will not be allowed unlimited free replacements.
The choice is yours.
However please note the amount of complaints and whinges on here about people having to pass through ticket gates when this is much faster than a proper visible ticket check.
You either want a fully controlled situation where fraud can be more easily controlled or what you have now.
The alternative is that each train is flooded with additional staff to check tickets, with the relevanmt increase in the price of your ticket, which again I am sure would not find favour with you ?
FGW will allow a free replacement on a renewed ticket. If as you say FGW are refusing to do so, and in this we only have your side of the story, then they have reasons to believe that all is not what it seems. If you are convinced of the the fact that you are being treated unfairly then I suggest Court action, and then let us see what the Court decides.
EM2
Established Member
This is where the analogy fall down. Losing a ticket is not breaking the contract, the contract is broken by you when you cannot present a ticket when asked for it (either personally asked by an inspector or you are unable to pass through a barrier).
Of course, if it's a cheap ticket, you chalk up it up to experience, say 'Ho hum' and go and buy another one.
Dear Old timer
I go back to my first and final point
I have not been allowed fair representation. The refusal i received was a copy of the T&C's but no actual justification for the refusal. I guess this is just a standard answer which I assume someone like you is used to giving.
If you (or someone in your family) were expected to pay for a service in the tune of £4k that you have already paid for would you think this fair? Maybe you can afford this. I cannot.
I hope to God you are not handling my appeal Old Timer.
I
Old Timer
Established Member
It is sad that you appear to be unable to accept that you entered into an agreement with FGW from which you gained advantage by the issue of a free replacement.
Your whole attitude in this has been to victimise yourself and present FGW as the agressor.
We only have your side of the story. There is clearly a reason why FGW are refusing to issue a replacement and I presume that it is on the basis that you have LOST a second season ticket within 12 months. That being the case as far as I remember reading the Conditions, you are bound by these.
If as you state your first ticket was stolen, then your failure to report this to the Police bearing in mind that fact that a valuable commodity, a season ticket was stolen gives rise to a whole series of questions. It is not for you to decide what the Police will and will not investigate neither is it for you to judge whether or not the miscreant will be detected. I think most reasonable people would be ringing the Police to report the loss. The fact that you did not do so - but only claimed theft now you want a second free replacement - would raise most people's eyebrows.
Have you appealed against the decision ?
As you seem to be so keen to be the victim here, why not do as I suggest and seek legal advice and challenge FGW in the Courts. Then let us see what THEY decide.
Finally I find your last sentence both patronising and offensive. ANY decision will be made against what the conditions permit. You have from post 1 declared yourself a victim and have continually stated that you expect FGW to abide by the agreement entered into, yet now that it does not suit you, you want to be released from it.
The easiest comparison here is that of a situation where you bought some valuable jewellery and lost it and want the shop to replace it, or as you persist in the bank card scenario, withdrew £4000 and lost it and then want the bank to replace it.
Old Timer, the conditions on FGW website state that each season pass can only be replaced once. No mention of 12 months on FGW.
The pass she lost in January was a previous season ticket, therefore she is eligible for one free replacement on this years pass, by the terms on FGW website.
The only issue being the terms on FGW website are outdated, however an updated version is not available on their website, nor is there a side note, fore word etc stating that these are out of date terms and conditions. Therefore in court FGW would have to honour these terms and conditions they are advertising on their website, despite being old and out of date, as their is no note advising customers where to find updated version.
The pass she lost in January was a previous season ticket, therefore she is eligible for one free replacement on this years pass, by the terms on FGW website.
The only issue being the terms on FGW website are outdated, however an updated version is not available on their website, nor is there a side note, fore word etc stating that these are out of date terms and conditions. Therefore in court FGW would have to honour these terms and conditions they are advertising on their website, despite being old and out of date, as their is no note advising customers where to find updated version.
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