Gold card refused replacement

[Missburty]

It is sad that you appear to be unable to accept that you entered into an agreement with FGW from which you gained advantage by the issue of a free replacement.

I have no idea what you mean. I have paid FGW a considerable amount of money to use a service for twelve months. Maybe what is sad is that i didn't read the small print and expected this service to be honoured.

Your whole attitude in this has been to victimise yourself and present FGW as the agressor.

That has not been my point at all. All i have stated is that i have been refused on ground that are vague (2 replacements in a 12 month period (from when? It doesn't state calendar yrs etc)), and 'expected' fraudulent use (your point Old Timer - how to prove on either side)

We only have your side of the story. There is clearly a reason why FGW are refusing to issue a replacement and I presume that it is on the basis that you have LOST a second season ticket within 12 months. That being the case as far as I remember reading the Conditions, you are bound by these.

I didn't realise i was standing trial here. To be fair to everyone that buys a season ticket - the conditions of carriage is a slightly hidden rule. Appreciate that this is my fault for not reading the small print.

If as you state your first ticket was stolen, then your failure to report this to the Police bearing in mind that fact that a valuable commodity, a season ticket was stolen gives rise to a whole series of questions. It is not for you to decide what the Police will and will not investigate neither is it for you to judge whether or not the miscreant will be detected. I think most reasonable people would be ringing the Police to report the loss. The fact that you did not do so - but only claimed theft now you want a second free replacement - would raise most people's eyebrows.

If you read the threads then some people would and some people wouldn't. I got held up at knife point in my house and the police weren't that helpful so maybe i have some issue with their effectiveness.

Have you appealed against the decision ?

Yes - read the threads

As you seem to be so keen to be the victim here, why not do as I suggest and seek legal advice and challenge FGW in the Courts. Then let us see what THEY decide.

Again - not trying to 'play' a victim. Just asking for advice, not abuse.

Finally I find your last sentence both patronising and offensive. ANY decision will be made against what the conditions permit. You have from post 1 declared yourself a victim and have continually stated that you expect FGW to abide by the agreement entered into, yet now that it does not suit you, you want to be released from it.

I am sorry Old Timer but from the start of this you have not been particularly pleasant. Maybe it's an email thing and i have read your posts incorrectly but they have been fairly hostile and totally patronising. I apologise if i have offended you.

The easiest comparison here is that of a situation where you bought some valuable jewellery and lost it and want the shop to replace it, or as you persist in the bank card scenario, withdrew £4000 and lost it and then want the bank to replace it.

In your words - irrelevant.
I would (and can) insure the Jewellery. The cash example has already been given and I wouldn't carry that around with me. The fact is that I now know that rail cards are perceived as cash - i didn't before. If this is SUCH a massive problem then isn't it down to the railways to prove intent rather than assuming it?

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer, the conditions on FGW website state that each season pass can only be replaced once. No mention of 12 months on FGW.
The pass she lost in January was a previous season ticket, therefore she is eligible for one free replacement on this years pass, by the terms on FGW website.

The only issue being the terms on FGW website are outdated, however an updated version is not available on their website, nor is there a side note, fore word etc stating that these are out of date terms and conditions. Therefore in court FGW would have to honour these terms and conditions they are advertising on their website, despite being old and out of date, as their is no note advising customers where to find updated version.

I read the Ts&Cs on the FGW Gold Card application form. It stated quite clearly that there would only be one free replacement per ticket, it went on to say that is a SECOND was LOST within 12 months of the first replacement that a second would NOT be issued in those circumstances.

Please note the emphasis. Therefore if a Season was stolen that is a different situation to being lost. Had the Lady reported it stolen with a Crime reference from the Police then it would be treated as stolen not lost.

In summary of my quick reading of the terms.

Lost / Lost Tickets
First season - one replacement within 12 months validity

Second season - one replacement in 12 months validity subject to a period of 12 months from the issue of the first replacement

Stolen/Stolen
First season - one replacement in 12 months validity

Second season - one replacement without restriction within validity

Stolen/Lost
First season - one replacement in 12 months

Second season - one replacement in 12 months validity subject to a period of 12 months from the issue of the first replacement


I presume therefore that FGW are applying the lost/lost condition as (as I understand it) the lady never reported the ticket stolen.

I am happy for anyone to update their interpretation as I dont have any FGW stuff here right now.

 

[jon0844]

The mistake was not reporting the first card stolen. Did the OP write her name on the front? If not, it is even easier for a criminal to use.

I feel a duty to prevent fraud that I'd ultimately pay for, so could never imagine failing to report such a theft, to help the police and TOC.

Failing to read the terms and conditions isn't the fault of the TOC either. If the terms were a problem, refuse to accept them and don't buy the ticket.

 

[snail]

I read the Ts&Cs on the FGW Gold Card application form. It stated quite clearly that there would only be one free replacement per ticket, it went on to say that is a SECOND was LOST within 12 months of the first replacement that a second would NOT be issued in those circumstances.

I've just looked again and the season ticket application form - dated December 2007 - is clear in restricting duplicate tickets to no more than two within any 12 month period.

Link here: (PDF)

In summary of my quick reading of the terms.

Lost / Lost Tickets
First season - one replacement within 12 months validity

I don't think the use of 'lose/lost' here is so strict. They begin by referring to lost or stolen tickets then switch to using lose/lost after that. Whatever the meaning though, the T&Cs printed on the application form that all new season ticket applicants have to complete would override anything on the web site and condition 2 is quite clear that you only get one replacement per 12 months of (combined) use - making my previous comments invalid!

 

[jon0844]

If you say you've lost your ticket, it may well turn up as you'd left it in a shirt pocket, under some magazines or whatever. Now, you'd have a duty to hand it back in (and if you did, you'd then be able to claim another replacement) but it would be an easy fraud for someone with criminal intentions, as you only have to lie to the person at the ticket office and get a new ticket.

The idea of reporting the ticket stolen is that you make a declaration to the police, and it's a serious offence to report something stolen if it hasn't been (i.e. you're holding it to give to someone else) - and indeed an insurance company if you have managed to get cover for it.

It therefore seems, justifiably, suspicious to suddenly claim that a ticket was stolen many months after the fact - not least inconsiderate to the TOC that can't mark it down as stolen to try and look out for it via whatever methods it may or may not have.

I realise this might sound harsh, but the OP has not done herself any favours here.

Now if there happens to be conflicting terms and conditions, the OP may be lucky anyway - but that doesn't change the fact that you must report a theft (even if the police did nothing, it goes on the crime stats so we can get a true picture of crime in this country) and accept the rules.

If I lost my £3,500 ticket, got a replacement and knew I couldn't get another one, I'd be seeking out insurance - even if it cost £50-100. Or I'd accept the risk, which would be far too high in my mind.

 

[Old Timer]

..It is sad that you appear to be unable to accept that you entered into an agreement with FGW from which you gained advantage by the issue of a free replacement.

I have no idea what you mean. I have paid FGW a considerable amount of money to use a service for twelve months. Maybe what is sad is that i didn't read the small print and expected this service to be honoured.

They HAVE honoured their agreement with you absolutely as I read the Ts&Cs. You agreed to them when you bought the tickets and I am sure the consequences of a second loss were adequately explained to you when the replacement was issued.

Your whole attitude in this has been to victimise yourself and present FGW as the agressor.

That has not been my point at all. All i have stated is that i have been refused on ground that are vague (2 replacements in a 12 month period (from when? It doesn't state calendar yrs etc)), and 'expected' fraudulent use (your point Old Timer - how to prove on either side)

THere is no vagueness about it. I read the Ts&Cs and very quickly indeed understood the fact that two replacements would not be made within a 12 month period of the issue of the first repalcement. The first replacement is obvious only valid from the date it is issued and thus the 12 months period runs from that date.

Within the arrangements currently in hand for checking tickets it is now very difficult if not almost impossible to detect the use of stolen season tickets without a detailed inspection of the ticket. That takes time at a barrier as I stated, and therefore the refusal of passengers to accept such delays means that the replacement of lost tickets has to be balanced against the always present risk of fraud. Note that most other travel providers operating similarly do not allow replacements.

We only have your side of the story. There is clearly a reason why FGW are refusing to issue a replacement and I presume that it is on the basis that you have LOST a second season ticket within 12 months. That being the case as far as I remember reading the Conditions, you are bound by these.

I didn't realise i was standing trial here. To be fair to everyone that buys a season ticket - the conditions of carriage is a slightly hidden rule. Appreciate that this is my fault for not reading the small print.

Well thank you for at least admitting that you did not read them. Unfortunately as with all thing financial and contractual people fail to check the small print unfortunately as the saying goes, the devil is in the detail. I am certain that there is a notice displayed in the booking office window at every station - relating to the Ts&Cs but I would have to check.

...If as you state your first ticket was stolen, then your failure to report this to the Police bearing in mind that fact that a valuable commodity, a season ticket was stolen gives rise to a whole series of questions. It is not for you to decide what the Police will and will not investigate neither is it for you to judge whether or not the miscreant will be detected. I think most reasonable people would be ringing the Police to report the loss. The fact that you did not do so - but only claimed theft now you want a second free replacement - would raise most people's eyebrows.

If you read the threads then some people would and some people wouldn't. I got held up at knife point in my house and the police weren't that helpful so maybe i have some issue with their effectiveness.

OK maybe so but you see that failure to report it as stolen means that (my reading of the Ts&Cs being correct, that you now fall within the lost/lost rather than the stolen/lost category. Unfortunately this is again within the Ts&Cs.

Have you appealed against the decision ?

Yes - read the threads

Fine thank you, but as threads get longer it is not always possible to go back and read the complete thread everytime, hence the question for clarity. I presume you appeal is based upon the stolen/lost scenario.

May I suggest that you get some written statements from people who were aware of that fact, and if necessary get these "sworn". As I said earlier I think right now that FGW are dealing with you on a lost/lost basis and their response is quite reasonable given that as far as they are concerned the first ticket was lost not stolen, and only became stolen in their eyes when you wanted a second lost/lost replacement. Your task now is to persuade them that the original was stolen (not lost) and hope that they accept your lack of faith in the Police, hence why I suggest getting some verification to support your case.

It is unlikely that they will go to a second appeal so it may be worth your while writing again and explaining that you are arranging to provide evidence that your first was stolen. It may help. I suggest DaveNewcastle would be a good person to run this by first though.

..As you seem to be so keen to be the victim here, why not do as I suggest and seek legal advice and challenge FGW in the Courts. Then let us see what THEY decide.

Again - not trying to 'play' a victim. Just asking for advice, not abuse.

I am sorry if that is how it came across. If you are upset by that comment then I unreservedly apologise and withdraw it. My point was not meant to be abusive but simply to try to point out that by virtue of a series of circumstances you find yourself disadvantaged but the fault does not lie with FGW who are (or so it appears) complying with the Ts&Cs of the ticket.

Finally I find your last sentence both patronising and offensive. ANY decision will be made against what the conditions permit. You have from post 1 declared yourself a victim and have continually stated that you expect FGW to abide by the agreement entered into, yet now that it does not suit you, you want to be released from it.

I am sorry Old Timer but from the start of this you have not been particularly pleasant. Maybe it's an email thing and i have read your posts incorrectly but they have been fairly hostile and totally patronising. I apologise if i have offended you.

Again I am sorry if you have taken offence but the internet is not always an easy place to demonstrate the emphasis in the same way you can verbally.

My position without being abusive or indeed patronising is that you have fallen foul of a situation that is covered in the Ts&Cs of the ticket issue. Now bad things happen and sometimes all one can do is to accept the inevitable and move on. The clear perception that I and pretty much all the other Railway staff have, is that because you have not read the Ts&Cs you now think that FGW is acting unreasonably. All FGW have done is to meet their obligations. Most people think it fair and reasonable that there is a free replacement in any year. I do not consider you as other than honest but can you not see that there are many who are not and that the fraudulent use of lost/duplicate season tickets is an ever present problem. At one stage we had it under control with barriers, without barriers it is very difficult to achieve this now, but passengers do not want to be delayed and in that case there has to be a balance. If the Railway cannot achieve the level of control it needs because passengers do not want to co-operate then the passengers have to accept that there have to be other forms of protecting revenue against those who would seek to approve it.

Without being cynical, experience has proven to staff involved in revenue protection that there are enough people on the railway system who travel with intent to deliberately avoid, or who would ordinarily buy tickets, but who will use an opportunity to avoid payment if this presents itself. In other words, opportunist fare evaders.

In your words - irrelevant.
I would (and can) insure the Jewellery. The cash example has already been given and I wouldn't carry that around with me. The fact is that I now know that rail cards are perceived as cash - i didn't before. If this is SUCH a massive problem then isn't it down to the railways to prove intent rather than assuming it?

I think here you misunderstand simply because you are not comparing the circumstances logically.

Comparisons of a season ticket with cash are not really of much value. Cash can be used easily and proving ownership of lost money is almost impossible. A season ticket is issued to a named individual and is supported by a photo ID card. This should in theory make it more difficult to use fradulently. Unfortunately as I have said above to really prove that the season ticket is truly the property of the holder would require a proper examination, the sort which the ordinary passenger objects to, for a variety of reasons. A guard checking tickets is primarily doing a date check on a busy train, sometimes a number disparity will be picked up, sometimes it wont be. That unfortunately is life and the humna condition.

As I see it, in your situation FGW have been presented with facts that suggest you want a second lost ticket replacement within the 12 months period, but that only upon refusal you now claim that the original was stolen. This as I understand it was not declared as stolen when the first repalcement was issued, and thus as they see it, you are now trying to change the reason for the first replacement. Without any proof that your first was stolen, and on the basis that you never told them before, you can hardly blame them for thinking that you may be trying to obtain a second when it is not justified.

YOUR task is to somehow persuade them that you wrong declared the original lost when in fact it had been stolen. I have suggested a potential way forward of proving that retrospectively but I suggest that FGW might have been more sympathetic has the original been declared stolen rather than lost.

Finally I do have sympathy with your position but I disagree with the way you put forward your justification that you are being treated unfairly. Unfortunately when any Railway staff put forward the reasons why, there are immediate accusations of them being "jobsworths/uncaring/uncustomer friendly, etc, etc" This appears to be a unique British thing but in order to move forward you need to understand what your true position is.

Any advice or suggestion that you have a strong case would I feel be misleading. It is unfortunate that a combination of circumstances have come together for you, but in some ways I cannot but feel you are to a degree the author of your own misfortune.

 

[cumfy]

We only allow one duplicate issue in any 12 month period

I presume they are talking about the 12 month peiod of the ticket.

 

[Old Timer]

I've just looked again and the season ticket application form - dated December 2007 - is clear in restricting duplicate tickets to no more than two within any 12 month period.

Link here: (PDF)

I don't think the use of 'lose/lost' here is so strict. They begin by referring to lost or stolen tickets then switch to using lose/lost after that. Whatever the meaning though, the T&Cs printed on the application form that all new season ticket applicants have to complete would override anything on the web site and condition 2 is quite clear that you only get one replacement per 12 months of (combined) use - making my previous comments invalid!

You need to post the whole of Clause 2.

Thus

2. Lost or Stolen Tickets. If your Season Ticket is
lost or stolen during its validity, you must
immediately report the loss to the offi ce where it
was issued. You will be asked to complete and sign
a duplicate application form. Subject to the
conditions shown in the National Rail Conditions
of Carriage and an administration fee, your ticket
could be replaced. Should you subsequently fi nd
your lost Season Ticket this MUST be returned to
a First Great Western station. If you are unfortunate
enough to lose your ticket for the second time
during its validity, you will need to buy a new
Season Ticket at the normal price subject to the
conditions detailed in Section H of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage. In any event, no more than
two duplicate Season Tickets will be issued to the
same customer within any 12 month period. Please
note - refunds are NOT USUALLY given on duplicate
Season Tickets in accordance with the Conditions
of Carriage.

 

[ess]

How likely is it a TOC would phone up a passenger to say "someone's handed in you ticket. it's at the ticket office in xxx"?

 

[exile]

The anti-OP brigade here have completely missed the point - that is, that the TOC already has £4,000 of the OP's money in their pocket in return for a year's travel and are now asking for the money again to pay for the same service, "in case of fraud" - when the only possible fraud is being perpetrated on the OP. The points about being more careful or insuring oneself against the loss ignore the fact that the TOC OBLIGES the ticket holder to walk around with £4,000 "cash" in their pocket, something that no sane person would do in other circumstances.

If my bank decided to confiscate money from my account due to possible fraud that they had no evidence of and made no attempt to prove, then I would pretty soon change my bank. But of course the OP has no choice - they have to get to work by train and so are forced to cough up.

Interesting piece here, and relevant too:- http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/43-09

" In the event of the loss or theft of a season ticket Manchester United Football Club will issue a duplicate season ticket unless the Club reasonably believes that a ticket holder is, or has been acting in a fraudulent or illegal manner or in breach of any of the ticket's terms and conditions."

This was a result of the OFT interpretation of the Unfair Contract Terms regulations. Bear in mind that if I lose my Man U season ticket I can just decide not to go to Old Trafford for the rest of the season, whereas if I lose my train season ticket I may not be able to get to work unless I replace it.

More background:- http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/football-season-tickets-unfair-terms-consumer-contracts.htm

 

[blue sabre]

The anti-OP brigade here have completely missed the point - that is, that the TOC already has £4,000 of the OP's money in their pocket in return for a year's travel and are now asking for the money again to pay for the same service, "in case of fraud" - when the only possible fraud is being perpetrated on the OP. The points about being more careful or insuring oneself against the loss ignore the fact that the TOC OBLIGES the ticket holder to walk around with £4,000 "cash" in their pocket, something that no sane person would do in other circumstances.

If my bank decided to confiscate money from my account due to possible fraud that they had no evidence of and made no attempt to prove, then I would pretty soon change my bank. But of course the OP has no choice - they have to get to work by train and so are forced to cough up.

Interesting piece here, and relevant too:- http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/43-09

" In the event of the loss or theft of a season ticket Manchester United Football Club will issue a duplicate season ticket unless the Club reasonably believes that a ticket holder is, or has been acting in a fraudulent or illegal manner or in breach of any of the ticket's terms and conditions."

This was a result of the OFT interpretation of the Unfair Contract Terms regulations. Bear in mind that if I lose my Man U season ticket I can just decide not to go to Old Trafford for the rest of the season, whereas if I lose my train season ticket I may not be able to get to work unless I replace it.

More background:- http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/football-season-tickets-unfair-terms-consumer-contracts.htm

That was unfair, as Old Trafford has smart ticketing so they can deactivate a season ticket or cancel a paper ticket remotely.
Whilst there is no reason to suspect the op is committing fraud by losing her season ticket then she may well have unwittingly facilitated someone else to do so. Why should the railway have to accept losing revenue for someone else's carelessness?
Sometimes people just have to accept responsibility rather than looking to blame others.

 

[cumfy]

Why do these tickets not have photo ID when they are so valuable ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why do these tickets not have photo ID when they are so valuable ?

Er, they do. That's what is proving a sore point with many posters!

 

[exile]

Why do these tickets not have photo ID when they are so valuable ?

They do. However the TOCs can't be bothered to actually check the photo ID.

 

[blue sabre]

Why do these tickets not have photo ID when they are so valuable ?

Apparently they do, but barriers don't look at photos, and it would be nigh on impossible to check every single person getting of a Train in the Capital in the peak without causing significant disruption.
Smart ticketing is what we need - this will solve a lot of the issues, but we don't universally have it. Untill we do, the T's & C's as highlighted are the only form of protection the railway has against fraud.
I must also emphasise I am not in any way, shape, or form accusing the OP of any attempt to commit any kind of offence, but unfortunately because there are people out there who will then the same rules will be applied to all.

 

[AlterEgo]

They do. However the TOCs can't be bothered to actually check the photo ID.

It's more a case of it being impractical than anything else - to properly check a season ticket and photocard would take about 15-20 seconds for each ticket holder.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Smart ticketing is what we need

I think everyone can agree on this!

 

[blue sabre]

They do. However the TOCs can't be bothered to actually check the photo ID.

How long do you think it would take to check an entire train full of commuters in the Peak? I'd imagine the vast majority of regular travellers will have some sort of season ticket. Where exactly should the checks be carried out? Should they introduce a check in system like airlines to make sure everyone is correctly ticketed?

 

[exile]

That was unfair, as Old Trafford has smart ticketing so they can deactivate a season ticket or cancel a paper ticket remotely.

The TOCs operate a system of photo cards, which can also be used to prevent the use of a lost or stolen ticket

Whilst there is no reason to suspect the op is committing fraud by losing her season ticket then she may well have unwittingly facilitated someone else to do so. Why should the railway have to accept losing revenue for someone else's carelessness?

What lost revenue? Won't the TOC be able to detect, for instance, that the lost season ticket is handed in for a refund? Or is the finder likely to actually want to do the same daily journey as the OP? Ah, fantastic, an annual season ticket from Reading to Paddington, just what I always wanted!

Sometimes people just have to accept responsibility rather than looking to blame others.

If I walked around with £4,000 cash in my pocket out of my own stupidity I would accept your point. But in order to be able to use the season ticket I HAVE to keep it in a wallet, pocket, handbag or other place where it can easily be lost or stolen from. I accept that I may occasionally lose, or have stolen, items of low intrinsic value such as pens, umbrellas, mobiles, credit cards, keys and so on. But something worth £4,000?

 

[cumfy]

They do. However the TOCs can't be bothered to actually check the photo ID.

Sounds crazy, and surely guards can be issued with a list of recent/extant lost/stolen season names.
Any thieves/fraudsters will be sitting ducks surely ?

Said crims will be paying TOC £4k+ ne pas ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How likely is it a TOC would phone up a passenger to say "someone's handed in you ticket. it's at the ticket office in xxx"?

Depends on a couple of things, but going by the book, if the owner can be tracked and contacted quickly enough, it will be returned before a duplicate is issued. If a duplicate is issued before they can be contacted they may not be contacted, but the recovery will be noted.

 

[exile]

deleted - double post
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How long do you think it would take to check an entire train full of commuters in the Peak? I'd imagine the vast majority of regular travellers will have some sort of season ticket. Where exactly should the checks be carried out? Should they introduce a check in system like airlines to make sure everyone is correctly ticketed?

How long does it take to check that a season ticket is within date and for the correct route? How much longer does it take to check the photo card number?

If there is no time to check tickets....... is it any wonder that real (as opposed to imaginary) fraud is so common....

 

[David Dunning]

I agree that the only one losing revenue in this case is the poor woman who lost her ticket . Makes me think twice about investing in a season ticket , I had no idea the rules were that strict . It should at least be a 3 strikes and you're out . As losing a ticket twice is perfectly possible . (Over three times and id be suspicious) .
All I can say is dont give up with FGW , They have your money and I'd keep on at them over and over again . These sort of high value tickets should always be issued on a smart card format that the they can be cancelled. and while i would remain polite and keep your cool with them ..dont rule out the Daily Mail or Watchdog if you need to. It can work wonders sometimes.

 

[AlterEgo]

dont rule out the Daily Mail or Watchdog if you need to. It can work wonders sometimes.

It really doesn't.

For every featured story in the DM or on Watchdog there are hundreds upon hundreds of submissions that go straight into the bin. For the overwhelming majority of people, it is a fruitless exercise.

Much better to engage in a productive dialogue with FGW in this case. I've already supplied Chief Exec details.

 

[blue sabre]

What lost revenue? Won't the TOC be able to detect, for instance, that the lost season ticket is handed in for a refund? Or is the finder likely to actually want to do the same daily journey as the OP? Ah, fantastic, an annual season ticket from Reading to Paddington, just what I always wanted!

Whilst a person might not want to travel from Reading to Paddington, with this ticket they could do if the needed it and also between any intermediate station. It would also allow someone who wanted to travel long distance to book any tickets from Reading rather than Paddington (or anywhere in between) even if it is only used a handful of times it is still a loss of revenue to the railway, and that is just one case. I don't have any figures for season tickets replacements but this I'm sure is not the only case or only time it has happened. It all adds up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont rule out the Daily Mail or Watchdog if you need to. It can work wonders sometimes.

Somehow I really don't think they would care.

 

[EM2]

If I walked around with £4,000 cash in my pocket out of my own stupidity I would accept your point. But in order to be able to use the season ticket I HAVE to keep it in a wallet, pocket, handbag or other place where it can easily be lost or stolen from. I accept that I may occasionally lose, or have stolen, items of low intrinsic value such as pens, umbrellas, mobiles, credit cards, keys and so on. But something worth £4,000?

I've had annual Travelcard season tickets for four years. I use them almost every day (even for leisure trips). It's in and out of my pocket six or seven times a day. I have NEVER had one lost or stolen.

 

[jon0844]

Six years of an annual ticket that has never been lost or stolen. Kept in a separate ticket holder, not my wallet and checked as carefully as my car keys and mobile.

I've had many replacements for the magstrip failing though, but there is no limit on them.

As soon as I lost one, I would be seeking a way to protect my investment from then on. Or take a gamble. When you gamble, you accept you may lose.

Checking the photo ID wouldn't necessarily be enough as I'd see these as a weak link as they look easy to fake. You would therefore need to check it very closely, and compare the name that was hopefully written in the ticket.

I bet season ticket holders would go mental to have such checks and would claim they were being treated like a criminal, or being victimised etc.

 

[David Dunning]

I've had annual Travelcard season tickets for four years. I use them almost every day (even for leisure trips). It's in and out of my pocket six or seven times a day. I have NEVER had one lost or stolen.

ok so if i need something looking after I can clearly depend on you .
So what are you bad at ?

I guess I have always had a problem with this kind of penalty system . It dates back to getting a detention for losing a school book . :roll:

 

[Old Timer]

The anti-OP brigade here have completely missed the point - that is, that the TOC already has £4,000 of the OP's money in their pocket in return for a year's travel and are now asking for the money again to pay for the same service, "in case of fraud" - when the only possible fraud is being perpetrated on the OP.

Ye Gods :roll: :roll:

You have either not bothered to read the thread or you do not intend to accept what has been said.

Fraud - Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. I suggest you go to a Police station and report the situation as fraud and then get laughed out the door.

Are you not able to undertsand that the OP agreed to the Ts&Cs when she bought the ticket ? FGW has already replaced one ticket for free.

The TOC has ben paid £4,000 for a season ticket which has been lost and could thus be used fraudulently. They are now expected to permit another £4,000 i.e. a potential £8,000 loss of revenue if either of these tickets are in circulation. If the TOC had a strong enough belief in a fraud being perpetuated then I can assure you the lady would be under formal investigation.

The simply fact is that the lady, and presumably yourself want to modify the Ts&Cs under which the tickets were issued. In no other customer field or travel industry would the level of expectation be so high.

.The points about being more careful or insuring oneself against the loss ignore the fact that the TOC OBLIGES the ticket holder to walk around with £4,000 "cash" in their pocket, something that no sane person would do in other circumstances.

Cash can be used without any risk of the money being identified.

No TOC demands that people buy a season ticket, in fact it constitutes a loss of revenue due to the discounts. The TOC require all passengers to produce their ticket as proof of payment being made for the journey. The passenger buying a season ticket agrees to do so and is advised that it is their responsibility to manage the security of the ticket. Many ladies do this by connecting their season ticket holder to their bags. The vast majority of travellers manage to keep their season ticket and not lose it. I managed to do so for many years. What do you suggest is done - passengers walk up to the barrier and state on their honour that they have a season ticket ? A bit adolescent dont you think ?

....If my bank decided to confiscate money from my account due to possible fraud that they had no evidence of and made no attempt to prove, then I would pretty soon change my bank. But of course the OP has no choice - they have to get to work by train and so are forced to cough up.

Completely irrelevant - posts above demonstrate the reason

Interesting piece here, and relevant too:- http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/43-09

" In the event of the loss or theft of a season ticket Manchester United Football Club will issue a duplicate season ticket unless the Club reasonably believes that a ticket holder is, or has been acting in a fraudulent or illegal manner or in breach of any of the ticket's terms and conditions."

This was a result of the OFT interpretation of the Unfair Contract Terms regulations. Bear in mind that if I lose my Man U season ticket I can just decide not to go to Old Trafford for the rest of the season, whereas if I lose my train season ticket I may not be able to get to work unless I replace it.

More background:- http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/football-season-tickets-unfair-terms-consumer-contracts.htm

Again an irrelevant comparison as all tickets are inspected/passed through a barrier. Old Trafford is the very last place I would ever wish to go so I do not know their system, however a stolen season ticket is a much easier thing to track down there than on the Railway.

As has been stated several times now if passengers want absolute fraud prevention then they can queue up for extended periods at the barriers in and out or can elect for airline style checkin. Passengers do not, they want to get straight on and straight off. This makes it impossible to manage revenue effectively therefore the restrictions on ticket replacements.

Again as I have pointed out several times no other travel provider would even consider a second let alone a first (in many cases) replacement.

Finally the Conditions of Carriage have apparantly been accepted by the OFT as fair.

 

[David Dunning]

Whilst a person might not want to travel from Reading to Paddington, with this ticket they could do if the needed it and also between any intermediate station. It would also allow someone who wanted to travel long distance to book any tickets from Reading rather than Paddington (or anywhere in between) even if it is only used a handful of times it is still a loss of revenue to the railway, and that is just one case. I don't have any figures for season tickets replacements but this I'm sure is not the only case or only time it has happened. It all adds up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Somehow I really don't think they would care.

Well I have run newsrooms in cities across the UK from Cornwall to Yorkshire . and I have produced consumer programmes and currently work for newspapers too . So on that basis I say there is a very good chance this story would actually make it if it all added up.

 

[Old Timer]

Well I have run newsrooms in cities across the UK from Cornwall to Yorkshire . and I have produced consumer programmes and currently work for newspapers too . So on that basis I say there is a very good chance this story would actually make it if it all added up.

Then I suggest you crack on, and lets get this one sorted publicly.

There is however an old saying....Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

In this case FGW might say no future second replacements, end of, or increase the future fares to close down the loss of revenue.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.