Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

43074

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The heavy use on the alternate fasts to Ely is intriguing -- not a service they'll eventually be in use on. Will these all be the souped up versions with WiFi and table-back seats?
Looks as if they're slotting into current 365 diagrams, obviously in May the diagrams are rewritten anyway and the Ely services become 387s.
 
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Yep. Not many capacity increases as a result. However some 4 coach workings replaced such as 1605 KX - Cambridge. I am sure the 0756 Cambridge to kings cross will provide happy customers from the previous 4 Car. Others won’t be impressed by less seats than the 365s they replace.
 

bramling

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Others won’t be impressed by less seats than the 365s they replace.
Understatement! Replacing 8-car 365s with reduced length undesiros simply isn’t acceptable. I don’t see why they need to get these monstrosities out now. It would be a lot more passenger friendly to wait until May so at least there are more length increases. Failing that, at least keep them to off peak services.
 

bramling

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The heavy use on the alternate fasts to Ely is intriguing -- not a service they'll eventually be in use on. Will these all be the souped up versions with WiFi and table-back seats?
It’s simply down to the diagrams. At the moment there are 387s required for the morning peak SDO stopping services, which cannot be 365. Whilst they could, perhaps, have written things to get the 387s onto the fast services after the morning peak, there wasn’t really a need to do so. And so it is that there are currently 365s on Ely services, and it’s then simply a straight swap to replace them with reduced length undesiros. Watch out for a further change in the next timetable.
 

Skimble19

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Are the 700s coming off the existing diagrams - I seem to remember someone saying that was the plan.
The current 12 car services that are operated by 700/1s will continue to be 700/1s, however there is one additional Kings Cross to Peterborough 700/1 in the evening, which then returns ECS back to Hornsey.
 

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The current 12 car services that are operated by 700/1s will continue to be 700/1s, however there is one additional Kings Cross to Peterborough 700/1 in the evening, which then returns ECS back to Hornsey.
Thanks again for the info. Do you know if the weekend diagrams will give us at Welwyn Garden city any relief from the cronic overcrowding the current 4 Car sets make us suffer? I am hoping they will strengthen these services ahead of doing a direct swap with the ones that are already 8 Car. But this is GTR, improving customer environment isn’t what they are here for.
 

Hadders

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The current 12 car services that are operated by 700/1s will continue to be 700/1s, however there is one additional Kings Cross to Peterborough 700/1 in the evening, which then returns ECS back to Hornsey.
That's a shame. I thought these were due to revert to 365s. The 51 Stevenage commuters who are no longer able to get a seat won't be happy.
 

philjo

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That's a shame. I thought these were due to revert to 365s. The 51 Stevenage commuters who are no longer able to get a seat won't be happy.
It looks like it will be more than that from next month. the 07:36 from Stevenage remains a 700/1 but the 07:38 will also switch to 700/0 instead of the current 8-coach 365. So I think this train will mean a lot of Hitchin passengers will be standing so no seats available at Stevenage most days.
 

Hadders

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It's standing only from Stevenage on the 0738 as it is. In fact the 0738 was an 8-car 317 until last year so the reduction in capacity is significant.

GN commuters are not going to be happy.
 

Ianno87

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Understatement! Replacing 8-car 365s with reduced length undesiros simply isn’t acceptable. I don’t see why they need to get these monstrosities out now. It would be a lot more passenger friendly to wait until May so at least there are more length increases. Failing that, at least keep them to off peak services.
I would imagine there simply isn't the stabling space on the GN network to switch over from 365s to 700s virtually overnight. Plus a gradual ramp up aids driver familiarity with the new units - not something you'd want to go to the wire on with the May timetable change.
 

Downthelane

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Can anyone explain why an operator be allowed to provide a worse service with less seats?

What are they trying to achieve?

Combine this with the oh so subtle 20/20 branding and this all looks like it's a stitch up.

Less seats, reduction of the original planned through trains and lack of clarity on what will actually run by 2020.

It looks like someone had a great idea without looking at the available paths and then designed a train based on 24tph when lower capacity wouldn't matter as much as there would have been more trains running.

Fast forward three years and someone has made an almighty misjudgement.

That or the government are planning already for the significant number of jobs lost in London post Brexit and hence less demand and they couldn't care less as long as Boris and Trump are being pandered to.
 

bramling

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Can anyone explain why an operator be allowed to provide a worse service with less seats?

What are they trying to achieve?

Combine this with the oh so subtle 20/20 branding and this all looks like it's a stitch up.

Less seats, reduction of the original planned through trains and lack of clarity on what will actually run by 2020.

It looks like someone had a great idea without looking at the available paths and then designed a train based on 24tph when lower capacity wouldn't matter as much as there would have been more trains running.

Fast forward three years and someone has made an almighty misjudgement.

That or the government are planning already for the significant number of jobs lost in London post Brexit and hence less demand and they couldn't care less as long as Boris and Trump are being pandered to.
A lot of the problem is the obsession with 24tph. Reduce things a bit and superimpose Thameslink over the existing GN service (giving people choice) and it probably wouldn’t work too badly at all. It’s been taken to too much of an extreme, and it’s clearly unravelling before even starting. One minute it’s going to Tattenham Corner and Caterham but not Sutton, next minute we have the flirtation with Rainham. Titanic’s deckchairs being rearranged?
 

Downthelane

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Two problems on the GN route.

1. Balancing the long distance commuters from North Cambs with those in Herts. It doesn't work, Peterborough is too far away and those living in Stevenage and south of Stevenage suffer to allow those who chose to live so far away (as many have done) a better non stop service and readily available seats.

And don't get me started on Kings Lynn and the Fen Line, seriously that distance is too far to be considered along side those closest to London, but they waste valuable paths and those services could be provided by a regular Cambridge northwards shuttle.

If GN/TL ran a fast in peak hours KGX to HAT and WGC (reverse in morning etc) that would relieve a huge load and probably account for 60-70% of the peak load at 17.52.

Skip Finsbury Park, but to make up for that you run a twice hourly 717 fast from Moorgate to Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC.

However it won't happen as GN persist in running the fasts to Peterborough.

It's almost as if they have a time that a journey must take and try and average it out so not to upset those who commute further. It's your choice to live that far away why should it be us further south that need to suffer?

2. The second Digswell Viaduct.

Those 'in the know' know that this will happen, but Grant won't risk his marginal seat by talking about it just yet.

By 2025 it will be under construction.

Until then the capacity issue won't go away, it should have been started in 1998 I recall, what a missed opportunity.

And for those who don't know Digswell.

https://anonw.com/2016/03/14/could-we-just-double-the-width-of-the-digswell-viaduct/
 

Skimble19

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Long post ahead - As promised, 700 weekend services:

Codes: KGX (Kings Cross), CBG (Cambridge), CMB (Cambridge North), ELY (Ely), PBO (Peterborough).

Saturday

Cambridge
UP

2T35 0747 CMB - KGX
1C51 0829 CBG - KGX
1C59 1129 CBG - KGX
1T29 1158 ELY - KGX
1C65 1429 CBG - KGX
2T55 1447 CMB - KGX
1C67 1529 CBG - KGX
1C71 1729 CBG - KGX
1C75 1829 CBG - KGX
1C21 2017 CBG - KGX
1C25 2117 CBG - KGX

DOWN
2T02 0604 KGX - CMB
1C48 0952 KGX - CBG
1T14 1014 KGX - ELY
1C54 1252 KGX - CBG
2T16 1304 KGX - CMB
1C56 1352 KGX - CBG
1C60 1552 KGX - CBG
1C62 1652 KGX - CBG
1C70 1852 KGX - CBG
1C74 1952 KGX - CBG
1T20 2144 KGX - ELY

Peterborough
UP

2P21 0419 PBO - KGX
1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P11 0908 PBO - KGX
1P15 1013 PBO - KGX
2P47 1119 PBO - KGX
1P61 1147 PBO - KGX
1P67 1447 PBO - KGX
1P73 1747 PBO - KGX
2P61 1819 PBO - KGX
1P81 2046 PBO - KGX
1P83 2147 PBO - KGX

DOWN
2P08 0934 KGX - PBO
1P48 1022 KGX - PBO
1P54 1322 KGX - PBO
1P60 1622 KGX - PBO
2P44 1634 KGX - PBO
1P00 1640 KGX - PBO
1P72 1922 KGX - PBO
1P76 2022 KGX - PBO
1P80 2222 KGX - PBO
1P82 2252 KGX - PBO
1P84 2322 KGX - PBO

Sunday 25th February - 25th March

Cambridge
UP

2C99 0628 CBG - KGX
1C61 1228 CBG - KGX
1C63 1328 CBG - KGX
1C65 1428 CBG - KGX
1C77 1928 CBG - KGX
1C79 2028 CBG - KGX
1C81 2128 CBG - KGX

DOWN
1C50 1038 KGX - CBG
1C52 1138 KGX - CBG
1C54 1238 KGX - CBG
1C66 1738 KGX - CBG
1C70 1838 KGX - CBG
1C74 1938 KGX - CBG
1C80 2138 KGX - CBG

Peterborough
UP

1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P57 0944 PBO - KGX
1P15 1015 PBO - KGX
1P59 1044 PBO - KGX
1P69 1546 PBO - KGX
1P71 1646 PBO - KGX
1P73 1746 PBO - KGX
1P79 1946 PBO - KGX
1P85 2301 PBO - KGX

DOWN
1P44 0808 KGX - PBO
1P56 1408 KGX - PBO
1P58 1508 KGX - PBO
1P60 1608 KGX - PBO
1P06 1800 KGX - PBO
1P78 2108 KGX - PBO
1P80 2222 KGX - PBO
1P84 2322 KGX - PBO
2P58 0038 KGX - PBO

Sunday 1st April - 13th May

Cambridge
UP

1C57 1028 CBG - KGX
1C63 1328 CBG - KGX
1C69 1628 CBG - KGX

DOWN
1C52 1152 KGX - CBG
1C58 1452 KGX - CBG
1C66 1738 KGX - CBG

Peterborough
UP

1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P15 1015 PBO - KGX
1P61 1146 PBO - KGX
1P67 1446 PBO - KGX
1P73 1746 PBO - KGX

DOWN
1P48 1022 KGX - PBO
1P54 1322 KGX - PBO
1P60 1622 KGX - PBO
1P06 1800 KGX - PBO
1P72 1922 KGX - PBO
 

Failed Unit

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Thanks Skimple. As i suspected no capacity improvements for us south of Stevenage. Stuck with 4 Car trains and a high chance we can’t physically board trains to kings cross at weekends until May.
 

Ianno87

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And don't get me started on Kings Lynn and the Fen Line, seriously that distance is too far to be considered along side those closest to London, but they waste valuable paths and those services could be provided by a regular Cambridge northwards shuttle.
Have you actually seen how busy the Fen Line paths are south of Cambridge? They are certainly not wasting paths on the ECML, based on the number of passengers carried, revenue generated, and contribution to the UK economy (they will be a large factor in the recent growth of Cambridge, for one thing...)
 

Downthelane

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What are the stats for morning peak travel to London from stations north of Cambridge?

Can you compare/contrast that to the numbers travelling south from other stations?
 

Failed Unit

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What are the stats for morning peak travel to London from stations north of Cambridge?

Can you compare/contrast that to the numbers travelling south from other stations?
There was a post with the highest usage stations but remember north of Cambridge coaches get dropped of. Significant overcrowding occurs as a result of this. The Cambridge expresses fill 12 coaches between London and Cambridge. I would never argue about them being bad uses of paths.

Not sure about the Peterborough services loading.

Agree with your observations about the slows. After Welwyn the loading is down to about 50% but i suspect Stevenage and Hitchin based people aviod them.

That is the unknown thing with the Thameslink timetable. 3 of the busiest stations get a worse service. But as the slow the fastest trains perhaps more people will use the Welwyn starter. Likewise as more services will stop at Finsbury Park hopefully more from Stevenage and the north will avoid the Welwyn stoppers as they are too slow.
 

Downthelane

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Thanks Skimple. As i suspected no capacity improvements for us south of Stevenage. Stuck with 4 Car trains and a high chance we can’t physically board trains to kings cross at weekends until May.
Again why is this?

Why do the 'southern' GN stations have to tollerate this difference to those further afield?

There is more stock arriving and running four cars trains isn't a path issue it's an idealism that has blighted us for years.
 

Failed Unit

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Again why is this?

Why do the 'southern' GN stations have to tollerate this difference to those further afield?

There is more stock arriving and running four cars trains isn't a path issue it's an idealism that has blighted us for years.
GTR has no incentive to improve this service. I make a point of claiming the 30 minute delay repay every time I am denied boarding and forced to use the 313s. Many people don’t as it is so much hassle to get delay repay from them.

It is odd as the faster services are already 8 coaches.

I have written to GTR to ask. Look forward to their answer. Suspect it will be “maintenance requirements”. Better not be we run trains to the maximum length of the line....
 

Downthelane

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Why is there is no incentive for southern GN but there is(?) for those stations to the north of the route?
 
Last edited:

A0wen

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Thanks Skimple. As i suspected no capacity improvements for us south of Stevenage. Stuck with 4 Car trains and a high chance we can’t physically board trains to kings cross at weekends until May.
Isn't the issue still that platforms between Royston and Cambridge aren't long enough and those are the ones which the stopping diagrams also serve?

The one thing that amazes me though is why people at WGC, Hatfield etc insist on ramming themselves onto the stoppers to KX when they would be guaranteed a seat on a Moorgate service. OK, it's a little slower but depending on where you're heading to - and most people arriving at KX are then heading to the tube for an onward journey - you might actually get a better connection onto the tube. Highbury & Islington is cross platform onto the Victoria line for the west end - which is far shorter than any connection at KX, or the Overground which offers decent connections to most points around London now.

Moorgate drops you in the city - and decent connection onto the Met / Circle.

The only two destinations that I think are significantly worse to get to would be Heathrow or Paddington.
 

Failed Unit

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Isn't the issue still that platforms between Royston and Cambridge aren't long enough and those are the ones which the stopping diagrams also serve?

The one thing that amazes me though is why people at WGC, Hatfield etc insist on ramming themselves onto the stoppers to KX when they would be guaranteed a seat on a Moorgate service. OK, it's a little slower but depending on where you're heading to - and most people arriving at KX are then heading to the tube for an onward journey - you might actually get a better connection onto the tube. Highbury & Islington is cross platform onto the Victoria line for the west end - which is far shorter than any connection at KX, or the Overground which offers decent connections to most points around London now.

Moorgate drops you in the city - and decent connection onto the Met / Circle.

The only two destinations that I think are significantly worse to get to would be Heathrow or Paddington.
When you consider that the 0604 and 1605 weekday services will be 700 then this isn’t the issue as they also stop at the short platform stations.

Speed is a big reason why people don’t use the stoppers. It takes about 35 minutes to hit Finsbury Park on a stopper. 15 on a fast.

For me personally I walk from kings cross. Joining the Piccadilly at Finsbury Park is hit and miss. If we ever get the Thameslink service I suspect the faster trains will be even more popular.
 

A0wen

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When you consider that the 0604 and 1605 weekday services will be 700 then this isn’t the issue as they also stop at the short platform stations.

Speed is a big reason why people don’t use the stoppers. It takes about 35 minutes to hit Finsbury Park on a stopper. 15 on a fast.

For me personally I walk from kings cross. Joining the Piccadilly at Finsbury Park is hit and miss. If we ever get the Thameslink service I suspect the faster trains will be even more popular.
It could be driver availability - are all GN drivers passed out on the 700s yet? If not then presumably 317 / 387 / 365 will remain on those services.

In terms of the journey time - take WGC - Green Park as an example.

WGC - Highbury is 40 mins - cross platform interchange onto Vic, 9 mins on Vic = total time 50 mins.

WGC - KX timed as 27 mins. Transfer to Victoria call it 10 mins sensibly, tube 6 mins = total time 43 mins.

Difference - you'd get a seat pretty much all the way, the train is less likely to be delayed into H&I - I've sat on trains at KX waiting for the platform to come available on many times. And you've got to negotiate the barriers at KX and get your way to to the Vic line.
 

APUK002

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Thanks for info
Long post ahead - As promised, 700 weekend services:

Codes: KGX (Kings Cross), CBG (Cambridge), CMB (Cambridge North), ELY (Ely), PBO (Peterborough).

Saturday

Cambridge
UP

2T35 0747 CMB - KGX
1C51 0829 CBG - KGX
1C59 1129 CBG - KGX
1T29 1158 ELY - KGX
1C65 1429 CBG - KGX
2T55 1447 CMB - KGX
1C67 1529 CBG - KGX
1C71 1729 CBG - KGX
1C75 1829 CBG - KGX
1C21 2017 CBG - KGX
1C25 2117 CBG - KGX

DOWN
2T02 0604 KGX - CMB
1C48 0952 KGX - CBG
1T14 1014 KGX - ELY
1C54 1252 KGX - CBG
2T16 1304 KGX - CMB
1C56 1352 KGX - CBG
1C60 1552 KGX - CBG
1C62 1652 KGX - CBG
1C70 1852 KGX - CBG
1C74 1952 KGX - CBG
1T20 2144 KGX - ELY

Peterborough
UP

2P21 0419 PBO - KGX
1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P11 0908 PBO - KGX
1P15 1013 PBO - KGX
2P47 1119 PBO - KGX
1P61 1147 PBO - KGX
1P67 1447 PBO - KGX
1P73 1747 PBO - KGX
2P61 1819 PBO - KGX
1P81 2046 PBO - KGX
1P83 2147 PBO - KGX

DOWN
2P08 0934 KGX - PBO
1P48 1022 KGX - PBO
1P54 1322 KGX - PBO
1P60 1622 KGX - PBO
2P44 1634 KGX - PBO
1P00 1640 KGX - PBO
1P72 1922 KGX - PBO
1P76 2022 KGX - PBO
1P80 2222 KGX - PBO
1P82 2252 KGX - PBO
1P84 2322 KGX - PBO

Sunday 25th February - 25th March

Cambridge
UP

2C99 0628 CBG - KGX
1C61 1228 CBG - KGX
1C63 1328 CBG - KGX
1C65 1428 CBG - KGX
1C77 1928 CBG - KGX
1C79 2028 CBG - KGX
1C81 2128 CBG - KGX

DOWN
1C50 1038 KGX - CBG
1C52 1138 KGX - CBG
1C54 1238 KGX - CBG
1C66 1738 KGX - CBG
1C70 1838 KGX - CBG
1C74 1938 KGX - CBG
1C80 2138 KGX - CBG

Peterborough
UP

1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P57 0944 PBO - KGX
1P15 1015 PBO - KGX
1P59 1044 PBO - KGX
1P69 1546 PBO - KGX
1P71 1646 PBO - KGX
1P73 1746 PBO - KGX
1P79 1946 PBO - KGX
1P85 2301 PBO - KGX

DOWN
1P44 0808 KGX - PBO
1P56 1408 KGX - PBO
1P58 1508 KGX - PBO
1P60 1608 KGX - PBO
1P06 1800 KGX - PBO
1P78 2108 KGX - PBO
1P80 2222 KGX - PBO
1P84 2322 KGX - PBO
2P58 0038 KGX - PBO

Sunday 1st April - 13th May

Cambridge
UP

1C57 1028 CBG - KGX
1C63 1328 CBG - KGX
1C69 1628 CBG - KGX

DOWN
1C52 1152 KGX - CBG
1C58 1452 KGX - CBG
1C66 1738 KGX - CBG

Peterborough
UP

1P53 0846 PBO - KGX
1P15 1015 PBO - KGX
1P61 1146 PBO - KGX
1P67 1446 PBO - KGX
1P73 1746 PBO - KGX

DOWN
1P48 1022 KGX - PBO
1P54 1322 KGX - PBO
1P60 1622 KGX - PBO
1P06 1800 KGX - PBO
1P72 1922 KGX - PBO
 

sefton

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I see this morning the 700s are still being unreliable on the GN route with the 06:56 from Peterborough not working this morning. Also the few 700s I have travelled on recently the heating seems to have failed.
 

locomad46

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Regarding King's Lynn line, this should NEVER have been singled in the first place. I used to work it as a Guard, then RPI until forced to take early retirement. I have heard that there is talk about reinstating to double tracks, but there Might be a problem with some masts. However, I await the outcome with interest.
 

bramling

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Regarding King's Lynn line, this should NEVER have been singled in the first place. I used to work it as a Guard, then RPI until forced to take early retirement. I have heard that there is talk about reinstating to double tracks, but there Might be a problem with some masts. However, I await the outcome with interest.
Oh for the benefit of hindsight. Yes I agree it was, in hindsight, madness to impose such a performance risk. But same could be said about Uckfield - in that instance it was at the time near as the only way of making the savings needed to keep the line operational.

The evil thing about Kings Lynn is that the sections impose such a distorting mirror on performance - just one conflict at Littleport or Watlington can cause a whole pack of cards to fall right the way to London.

It will be far worse if Kings Lynn ever goes to 2tph with the current setup.
 

Skimble19

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Those of you wanting to sample going from Great Northern to Thameslink may be in for a bit of a surprise/treat/laugh soon (whatever your opinion!!). Plans in place to begin an early soft public test launch of two trains a day, Peterborough to Horsham and return replacing two currently separate services each way (London Bridge to Horsham and Kings Cross to Peterborough). Won’t give dates just yet as still subject to change but if all goes to plan it won’t be long!
 

samuelmorris

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Can they do that as a soft launch? Presumably it requires not running the equivalent services into Kings Cross and London Bridge, so they'd have to notify people and make it official?
 

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