Most hated rolling stock

[GRALISTAIR]

Which class of train do you hate the most?

Please don't turn this into a pacer/voyager/fgw bashing thread.

I am sorry but I remember travelling on the original 141 Pacer in 1984 - they are like riding on a frickin bus. Not nice. Awful - all the Pacers.

Give me a Mark 2F corridor slammer loco hauled and I will kiss you - just loved them.

 

[Death]

Bit of a toughie for me as I'm generally happy to travel on most things, but thinking about it I get:
Note: These are personal opinions, and many of ye may well disagree with them. Your mileage may vary.

• EMUs:
  • SWT 444s & 450s: For a train of their vintage, they have to be the most gutless stock I've ever had the (dis)pleasure to travel on. Sod all power and sod all speed, and this is emphasised no better than by the fact that a diversion I had through Staines last year rendered my journey so painfully slow and long that I would have actually arrived at Waterloo only 15 minutes later had I cycled the 40-odd miles into London! :roll:
    (Curiously enough: For 350s, see opposite thread! hock: )
  • SWT 458s: I know their original reliability issues have long since been sorted out, but their "legacy" has stayed with me nonetheless. Personally, I do not feel too safe travelling on a train I know to be running - Of all things - Windows 95 on its OCS! hock:
  .
• DMUs:
  • Class 170s: I don't know how well Northern and TPE run theirs, but SWT didn't seem to have a clue back when they were running these, and XCs don't seem to fare any better. They never seem to have enough grunt, speed or passenger space for the run they're being called upon to serve!
  • Class 222s: These do a very nice turn of speed, have tilt, and I must admit I enjoy their ride quality a great deal...But the painfully narrow vestibules force me to travel in the wheelchair bays in coach A, and that Kills any possibility of enjoying music at the volumes I normally stand in the vestibule for. That cringeworthy "attention grabber" on the PA needs a damn good deletion as well, IMO.
  .
• Loco-hauled stock:
  • Budd corp. "Amtubes" (Op'd by Amtrak on the NE corridor): Mostly for the fact these have the same vestibule fault as the 222s. Add to that seats with virtually no legroom, no usable standing space anywhere, horrid all-stainless bathrooms (What is it with Americans and stainless steel everything?) and the carriages strange, inverse effect to a Tardis.
  • FGW refurbished Mk. IIIs: Although the stock needed a refresh at the time, the high-backed seats, overuse of "airline" seating, tacky sockets "hung" off of adjacent seats, and the colour scheme chosen fitted the Mk. III about as well as a UK plug fits an Australian socket. Idea good, implementation BAD.

[/froth ]

 

[The Ham]

[/size]

• EMUs:
  • SWT 444s & 450s: For a train of their vintage, they have to be the most gutless stock I've ever had the (dis)pleasure to travel on. Sod all power and sod all speed, and this is emphasised no better than by the fact that a diversion I had through Staines last year rendered my journey so painfully slow and long that I would have actually arrived at Waterloo only 15 minutes later had I cycled the 40-odd miles into London! :roll:
    (Curiously enough: For 350s, see opposite thread! hock: )

• 
  
  your love/hate for the 350/450 is probably down to the fact that the 450's run on 3rd rail so are limited to how fast they can pull away by the power limitations. Add to that the 444&450's are the fastest trains on their route whilst the 350's have to dodge between IC trains so tend to have tighter timetabling slots.

 

[AndyLandy]

Right, I'm going to wade in here and say I ACTUALLY LIKE VOYAGERS!

OK, so the West Coast variety over the CrossCountry ones, but that's just because XC are often far too busy, and the catering provision isn't as good on XC as VT.

They're fast, they're not actually all that uncomfortable, they're looked after and kept clean. The huge windows are a joy to watch the world go by out of. The stuff about underfloor engines and vibrations is absolute nonsense, I've never had a problem with the ride quality. I've once or twice encountered smelly toilets, but that's hardly a feature that's unique to Voyagers. And they have a shop/buffet. So long as I can get a coffee on-board, I'm happy. I still find it staggering that as a nation we can justify multiple branches of every coffee chain in every city and shopping centre, but we can't justify providing a few more train services with a drinks trolley.

Actually, my least-favourite stock at the moment has to be Northern's 150s. Now they have vibration issues, they sound awful, especially the ones that screetch along the tracks and sound like fingernails down a chalkboard. The interiors haven't been refurbished since BR days. Toilet doors that don't even close, never mind lock. Dirty floors, worn out upholstery. Oh, and commuter doors and 3+2 seating. I accept that sometimes those are a necessary evil, but not on the rural routes that Northern seem to put 150s on. I'd actually go as far as to say that I dislike Northern's 150s more than their 142s.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Class 222s: These do a very nice turn of speed, have tilt, and I must admit I enjoy their ride quality a great deal...But the painfully narrow vestibules force me to travel in the wheelchair bays in coach A, and that Kills any possibility of enjoying music at the volumes I normally stand in the vestibule for. That cringeworthy "attention grabber" on the PA needs a damn good deletion as well, IMO.

Meridians tilt? First I've heard of it...

 

[185143]

Actually, my least-favourite stock at the moment has to be Northern's 150s. Now they have vibration issues, they sound awful, especially the ones that screetch along the tracks and sound like fingernails down a chalkboard. The interiors haven't been refurbished since BR days. Toilet doors that don't even close, never mind lock. Dirty floors, worn out upholstery. Oh, and commuter doors and 3+2 seating. I accept that sometimes those are a necessary evil, but not on the rural routes that Northern seem to put 150s on. I'd actually go as far as to say that I dislike Northern's 150s more than their 142s.

As a Northern Class 150 commuter, I completely agree with you!

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Which class of train do you hate the most?

Please don't turn this into a pacer/voyager/fgw bashing thread.

Can we go back in time ?

If so I want to add the Class 105 Cravens DMU to this.

I remember years ago catching a train to Cleethorpes from Sheffield Midland ( and yes it was via the Brigg line ) all I can remember is 2 hours of been shook to death, at one point im sure the body of the unit was going to fly off somewhere

 

[LE Greys]

That kinda happens on every loco-hauled train....

Usually when the loco is at the rear, so propelling rather than hauling. Such bumping and boring is not unknown with HSTs in the rear trailer as well.

 

[Tracked]

142/4's - predictably, probably would hate 143's given the chance, if we're doing historical then 141's eclipse these in terms of awfulness
153's - even as a short person there's too little legroom
220/1's - only when sat or (more likely) stood in sniffing distance of the toilets
350's - Would be improved with better seats

 

[Death]

your love/hate for the 350/450 is probably down to the fact that the 450's run on 3rd rail so are limited to how fast they can pull away by the power limitations. Add to that the 444&450's are the fastest trains on their route whilst the 350's have to dodge between IC trains so tend to have tighter timetabling slots.

I agree that the TRE is the biggest catch in making SWTs Desiros quicker, but on the same token SWT don't seem to be making any effort to resolve this matter despite numerous requests from passengers, myself included.
From my personal perspective, SWT's primary concern at present seems to be skimming as much profit from increased fares as they can before their franchise comes up for renewal in 2015/17CE.

I know they've thrown a few quid at Network Rail to help fund the platform extensions at a few of the stations on the Hownslow/Staines lines, but in this they seem to be concentrating only on cramming more pax on board already overloaded trains and increase fares revenue accordingly. The capacity increase is definitely needed - No question about that - But I can't help but see a vested shareholder interest hanging off the side here.

In comparison; I would guess that - If the franchise was being run by VT (If only they were interested in combined InterCity and commuter franchises!) - They would've reinvested a fair chunk of their profits into having OHL installed on all of the faster routes and many of the diversionaries (Staines via Addlestone, for example) and allowing for much faster running.
A Pendolino - For example - Could easily keep the full 140mph up between Clapham and Eastleigh without a single brake application required en-route! \m/

Meridians tilt? First I've heard of it...

I believe this is the case, though that's based on only two Meridian runs and the fact that the earlier 221 does tilt. It's perfectly possible I was mistaking track superelevation for tilting suspension, though.

 

[12CSVT]

I am sorry but I remember travelling on the original 141 Pacer in 1984 - they are like riding on a frickin bus. Not nice. Awful - all the Pacers.

The first class 141 I travelled on in 1984 was like going down stairs on a bus.
Bumpety bumpety bump !

Same with just about all the other pacers I have travelled on.

 

[The Ham]

Right, I'm going to wade in here and say I ACTUALLY LIKE VOYAGERS!

OK, so the West Coast variety over the CrossCountry ones, but that's just because XC are often far too busy, and the catering provision isn't as good on XC as VT.

They're fast, they're not actually all that uncomfortable, they're looked after and kept clean. The huge windows are a joy to watch the world go by out of. The stuff about underfloor engines and vibrations is absolute nonsense, I've never had a problem with the ride quality. I've once or twice encountered smelly toilets, but that's hardly a feature that's unique to Voyagers. And they have a shop/buffet. So long as I can get a coffee on-board, I'm happy. I still find it staggering that as a nation we can justify multiple branches of every coffee chain in every city and shopping centre, but we can't justify providing a few more train services with a drinks trolley.

I agree, much of the problems with the Voyagers is down to the fact that they are too busy and/or not enough of them.

 

[SprinterMan]

I agree, much of the problems with the Voyagers is down to the fact that they are too busy and/or not enough of them.

Add me to that list also, I think Voyagers are great! Especially Virgin Voyagers, as they tilt and have a shop/business class coach (D). XC voyagers just need to be a lot longer and less smelly, then people would love them :P

Adam

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe this is the case, though that's based on only two Meridian runs and the fact that the earlier 221 does tilt.

222s do not tilt they have a different TMS which does not support it (Bombardier vs Alstom on the 220/221s and 390s) and they have different bogies to 221s which also do not feature tilt capability.

 

[SGS]

150s take the crown though. I'm surprised HSE allow people to travel on 150s without wearing ear defenders. The engine noise is absolutely unbearable. Well, it was on the sorry excuses for trains I have used recently. After less than 10 minutes on these clapped out old boxes I'd already got a headache.
The seating is awful too, theyre just disgusting units that need scrapping asap.

Agree about the noise, just terrible. Even Richard Wilson commented on it in his rail TV programme last year.

I think I've found the seat with the least legroom on the whole of the rail network, and it's in a Northern 150/2, 150207 in fact (I don't know if all Nothern's 150s, or those of other TOCs, are laid out in the same way). The seat is in the DMS (i.e non-lavatory) carriage, in the rearmost row nearest to the inter-carriage door, on the left-hand side as you face the cab. I've never experienced anything quite like it. I had to sit in the outside seat with one leg completely in the aisle. No wonder it was the only unoccupied row when I boarded.


Stuart.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport/

 

[Death]

222s do not tilt they have a different TMS which does not support it (Bombardier vs Alstom on the 220/221s and 390s) and they have different bogies to 221s which also do not feature tilt capability.

Oh dear, that puts paid to one plan that I had in mind!

Because of the benefits that tilt would bring to the Southampton Mainline plus my (Incorrect) understanding that 222s had it, one of my latest suggestions to SWT was to see about borrowing a couple of 222s from EMT and trial them on high-speed runs between Waterloo and Southampton!

I don't suppose there are any surplus 221s anywhere that could be used for this, are there?

 

[AndyLandy]

Oh dear, that puts paid to one plan that I had in mind!

Because of the benefits that tilt would bring to the Southampton Mainline plus my (Incorrect) understanding that 222s had it, one of my latest suggestions to SWT was to see about borrowing a couple of 222s from EMT and trial them on high-speed runs between Waterloo and Southampton!

I don't suppose there are any surplus 221s anywhere that could be used for this, are there?

Given the SWML has a maximum running speed of 100mph and there's no TASS to support tilting trains, you'd have a lot of ground to make up before a tilting 221 would be of any benefit on that line.

 

[Phillipimo]

Southern 377's, the paint's fading the seats are awful!

 

[sprinterguy]

Actually, my least-favourite stock at the moment has to be Northern's 150s. Now they have vibration issues, they sound awful, especially the ones that screetch along the tracks and sound like fingernails down a chalkboard. The interiors haven't been refurbished since BR days. Toilet doors that don't even close, never mind lock. Dirty floors, worn out upholstery. Oh, and commuter doors and 3+2 seating. I accept that sometimes those are a necessary evil, but not on the rural routes that Northern seem to put 150s on. I'd actually go as far as to say that I dislike Northern's 150s more than their 142s.

Many of Northern's class 150s (I would estimate around half of the fleet that the currently operate) were refurbished by North West Trains around the turn of the millennium. I cannot deny though that all of Northern's 150s are in a right old state - They do not make for a pleasant travelling experience.

 

[asylumxl]

they do not make for a pleasant travelling experience.

Oh you mean the trains!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Many of Northern's class 150s (I would estimate around half of the fleet that the currently operate) were refurbished by North West Trains around the turn of the millennium. I cannot deny though that all of Northern's 150s are in a right old state - They do not make for a pleasant travelling experience.

Just out of interest when is Northern's franchise due to end?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just out of interest when is Northern's franchise due to end?

31 March 2014 IIRC

 

[ainsworth74]

Just out of interest when is Northern's franchise due to end?

31 March 2014 though I believe it could be extended by up to 28 weeks should the DfT wish to do so and, of course, the DfT could try and negotiate a short extension (there is no more provision for automatic extensions in the contract).

 

[RichmondCommu]

31 March 2014 though I believe it could be extended by up to 28 weeks should the DfT wish to do so and, of course, the DfT could try and negotiate a short extension (there is no more provision for automatic extensions in the contract).

So there is not likely to be any improvement in the quality of the trains in at least the next 12 months. Indeed perhaps nothing will improve until the arrival of the 319's. And given the delays with Thameslink procurement it's hard to see them arriving on time which is even worse as the wires will be up with nothing to use them!

 

[ainsworth74]

So there is not likely to be any improvement in the quality of the trains in at least the next 12 months.

Pretty much. Unless one of the PTE decides to splash out some cash and pay for something it's unlikely that Northern will start anything (and I can't say I blame them this close to the end!).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Pretty much. Unless one of the PTE decides to splash out some cash and pay for something it's unlikely that Northern will start anything (and I can't say I blame them this close to the end!).

Oh I agree. It would surely make sense to reward the next franchisee with a ten year franchise to ensure that there is substantial investment in rolling stock.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the next franchise is let on the same basis as this one (no growth, limited investment in rolling stock) then the DfT truly are irredeemably incompetent. I'll also go slightly mad. So I would hope, as you suggest, that the next one is let with provision for rolling stock improvements and possibly even, shock horror, some new stock.

 

[185143]

As a Northern commuter, if the next franchise is on the same conditions, i will literally hang myself*.










*Not Really

 

[Starmill]

As a Northern commuter, if the next franchise is on the same conditions, i will literally hang myself*.










*Not Really

I feel much the same way. Muchly muchly muchly. And I don't even get the butt-end of it.

 

[AndyLandy]

I feel much the same way. Muchly muchly muchly. And I don't even get the butt-end of it.

I pity anyone who has to commute along that route. It's horrible enough when I make the occasional leisure trip on the Mid-Cheshire Railway. I'd hate to have to use the wretched thing at peak time every day! I really feel for you guys.