Overground/Crossrail takeover of Greater Anglia inners

[306024]

Whittlesford!

Whittlesford indeed thanks, dunno how Whittlesea got mentioned, I've corrected post #386.

 

[87015]

You understand correctly. 315s are slightly more suited to the work so 317 use is more restricted.

Problem is the 315 fleet has a MASSIVE maintenance backlog of faults. For 10 years, if not more, 315s have been able to run around carrying faults without too much issue by being buried in an 8 car and despatched to the Shenfields for months on end. No ability to do that now for the LO units and it is already showing.

 

[LeeLivery]

Looking at RTT for Edmonton Green doesn't show a "terrible" day in terms of train running, although it could have been better without the odd train failure. Meanwhile a plastic sheet on the overheads at Angel Road and a tree at Whittlesford caused severe disruption to AGA, with a knock on effect to LO services. It is AGA that operate on the Lea Valley with a few peak Hertford services running via Southbury, LO only operate on the Southbury Loop, not down the Lea Valley.



Complete with luxury arm chairs in the former first class area? The locals are being spoilt

Multiple short formations is terrible when loads of people are left behind, and to make it worse LO have removed the number of coaches on the depts boards - something they've also done on the Sydenham corridor. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 coaches? That doesn't matter at allll! People have also said don't even know where/when the next train is actually arriving, with staff being absolutely uninformed by control. The twitter service is awful too.

No one expected a transformation overnight, but the service has got worse and they are giving out totally misleading information. So yes for TfL "high standards" that is terrible.
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Some of the confusion over which is and which isn't the Lea Valley line might come from Wikipedia, which has 'Lea Valley Lines' article claiming the term is used for the Chingford, Seven Sisters and Southbury Loop lines as well as the actual Lea Valley line through Tottenham Hale.

So where does the actual West Anglia ML start?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Problem is the 315 fleet has a MASSIVE maintenance backlog of faults. For 10 years, if not more, 315s have been able to run around carrying faults without too much issue by being buried in an 8 car and despatched to the Shenfields for months on end. No ability to do that now for the LO units and it is already showing.

The problem is LO isn't explaining that. Not letting anyone know of short formations, making out everything is wonderful.

 

[ModernRailways]

The problem is LO isn't explaining that. Not letting anyone know of short formations, making out everything is wonderful.

This seems to be a key problem I've saw on Twitter. Lack of communication. For all people complained about the service by AGA, at least they were there with information and updates about services. TfL are failing in that department miserably, and whilst I might work to help hide some delays and short forms it will only put more pressure on the front line staff who likely won't know anything either.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Some of the confusion over which is and which isn't the Lea Valley line might come from Wikipedia, which has 'Lea Valley Lines' article claiming the term is used for the Chingford, Seven Sisters and Southbury Loop lines as well as the actual Lea Valley line through Tottenham Hale.

Ah thanks for explaining, professional railway folk only refer to the Lea Valley as via Brimsdown, certainly not via Southbury.

So where does the actual West Anglia ML start?

I've been occasionally working on a system of railway line naming for Wikipedia, and I welcome changes. Currently we have the GEML as LST to somewhere out in the sticks, the WAML from LST to Cambridge, and the Lea Valley Lines as all stuff from Liverpool Street and Stratford to Enfield, Cheshunt, Chingford and Hertford East. If you can give us the proper system we'd welcome it.

Also quite what the Heart of Wessex Line is would be nice.

 

[SprinterMan]

2x317s in LO livery were at Ilford Car Sheds this morning, forgot to look to see if they were still there this evening, but unless Control did a changeover they would have been.

On paper there are sufficient 315s to cover all the diagrams at weekends, so a 317 working is less likely, unless Spurs are at home.

That is disappointing I was hoping that the 317/7s (and /8s) would be out to play often. Do they really need 15 of them if they only see use at peak hours aside from the Romford to Upminster line?

Adam

 

[jon0844]

This seems to be a key problem I've saw on Twitter. Lack of communication. For all people complained about the service by AGA, at least they were there with information and updates about services. TfL are failing in that department miserably, and whilst I might work to help hide some delays and short forms it will only put more pressure on the front line staff who likely won't know anything either.

I think that's part of the problem once any train operator (or indeed any company) gets good with social media and starts to give regular and timely information.

For one, it attracts the nutters who know think they can Tweet nonsense 24/7, and also it means that many issues are now widely known about - even by people not affected, but can see various issues and it paints a picture of an unreliable company/service.

If you stay quiet, nobody knows. People aren't getting issues in their Twitter feed regularly and seeing the company logo, even if not fully reading the Tweets for some context.

It's rather like Apple refusing to comment on almost everything, at least until it has a very well prepared statement (and has usually fixed whatever the issue was). It makes it very hard to slag off a company that doesn't confirm any problems, as you are now having to try and expose flaws - and can never have the same level of reach as the company itself.

Who will most people believe? Especially if the organisation is one that has a good reputation like TfL, Virgin, DOR...

I suspect TfL isn't being poor with providing information, but merely being very clever with how it handles things.

 

[87015]

The shiny 317/7s have been kicked back out of Ilford by AGA after collapsing somewhat predictably on Monday, let's see how long they last this time...

 

[Dave1987]

I think the rail operators should just state the reality of GEML. They can run less trains so that every train runs exactly to time or run the same service level that their currently is and put up with small delays. People are seemingly willing to accept the major delays and jams that regularly happen on the A12 and M25 yet its sacrilege that trains might run 5 mins late during the peak when the network is at near breaking point.

 

[450.emu]

I think the rail operators should just state the reality of GEML. They can run less trains so that every train runs exactly to time or run the same service level that their currently is and put up with small delays. People are seemingly willing to accept the major delays and jams that regularly happen on the A12 and M25 yet its sacrilege that trains might run 5 mins late during the peak when the network is at near breaking point.

That's true about the M25... the M4 is another good one for the old 'stop, start again, get up to 50 then stop suddenly' game, especially near Slough... but no one complains. Sad to say the GEML is at breaking point, I would have thought within 3 years or so of them starting the renewal of the OHLE, they would have sorted this out by now Heatwave (if it comes) may bring warped tracks, sagging overhead lines on the current 1960's tech :roll:

 

[Busaholic]

Was only one platform at New Cross Gate before LOROL came along

Yes, but the whole service from New Cross Gate was being transformed, including provision for the Peckham spur etc. The New Cross LO platform has many more physical constraints to expansion without a complete redevelopment/rethink of the station which isn't going to happen. The Bakerloo extension offers far more, not least a service in excess of 4 tph and with many more carriages to boot.

 

[306024]

I've been occasionally working on a system of railway line naming for Wikipedia, and I welcome changes. Currently we have the GEML as LST to somewhere out in the sticks, the WAML from LST to Cambridge, and the Lea Valley Lines as all stuff from Liverpool Street and Stratford to Enfield, Cheshunt, Chingford and Hertford East. If you can give us the proper system we'd welcome it.

Well here is only what I've picked up from other Railwaymen over the years and some may speak differently but here goes....

Cambridge Main Line or the more modern use of West Anglia Main Line (interchangeable): Liverpool St to Kings Lynn via Lea Valley.

Lea Valley: Clapton Jn to Cheshunt via Brimsdown, but is occasionally stretched to include Stratford to Broxbourne via Brimsdown.

Southbury Loop: Hackney Downs to Cheshunt via err.....Southbury. In ancient times also referred to as the Churchbury loop.

Chingford, Enfield Town and Hertford East are simply referred to as branches, nothing more exciting than that.

These days use of via Brimsdown or Southbury is in decline, as most now speak of via Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters instead.

GEML Leave as somewhere out in the sticks, or Norwich as the locals call it

That is disappointing I was hoping that the 317/7s (and /8s) would be out to play often. Do they really need 15 of them if they only see use at peak hours aside from the Romford to Upminster line?

Adam

The extra spare 317s are to help cover the tight 315 availability, so occasionally you could get a pair of 317s instead of a pair of 315s.

 

[SPADTrap]

Well here is only what I've picked up from other Railwaymen over the years and some may speak differently but here goes....

Cambridge Main Line or the more modern use of West Anglia Main Line (interchangeable): Liverpool St to Kings Lynn via Lea Valley.

Lea Valley: Clapton Jn to Cheshunt via Brimsdown, but is occasionally stretched to include Stratford to Broxbourne via Brimsdown.

Southbury Loop: Hackney Downs to Cheshunt via err.....Southbury. In ancient times also referred to as the Churchbury loop.

Chingford, Enfield Town and Hertford East are simply referred to as branches, nothing more exciting than that.

These days use of via Brimsdown or Southbury is in decline, as most now speak of via Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters instead.

GEML Leave as somewhere out in the sticks, or Norwich as the locals call it

Pretty much what I've heard, even how my route learning referred to it as!

 

[306024]

I think the rail operators should just state the reality of GEML. They can run less trains so that every train runs exactly to time or run the same service level that their currently is and put up with small delays.

Except of course if you run less trains you'd struggle to shut the doors on some of the remaining services

 

[prod_pep]

I'm also in full agreement wih 306024's route descriptions. The true Lea Valley line is part of the West Anglia Main Line between Clapton Junction and Cheshunt as far as I've been told.

 

[bicbasher]

Both LBC Radio and London Live tv are claiming that the closure of the Romford to Upminster line this afternoon is a TfL Rail service!

 

[Philip C]

I've been occasionally working on a system of railway line naming for Wikipedia, and I welcome changes. Currently we have the GEML as LST to somewhere out in the sticks, the WAML from LST to Cambridge, and the Lea Valley Lines as all stuff from Liverpool Street and Stratford to Enfield, Cheshunt, Chingford and Hertford East. If you can give us the proper system we'd welcome it.

Also quite what the Heart of Wessex Line is would be nice.

I'm not particularly impressed that someone claiming a location of Canary Wharf could be so uncertain of what is and what is not the Lea Valley Line.

Is this really how Wikipedia works - the GIPO principle (Garbage In Perfection Out)? I can understand the logic of it (I think), but how do you know whether its current offering on any particular subject is nearer the output stage than the input stage? In general I think I would prefer those with a working knowledge of a subject to be those initiating the process.

 

[prod_pep]

Generally the 315s are better suited to the stopping services than the 317s with superior acceleration and their higher density interior layout. This in part will be why the LOROL 317s are mainly peak only on the West Anglia. Essentially, it is a return to pre-2010ish when the off-peak Chingfords were almost always 315s.

 

[transmanche]

Is this really how Wikipedia works - the GIPO principle (Garbage In Perfection Out)? I can understand the logic of it (I think), but how do you know whether its current offering on any particular subject is nearer the output stage than the input stage? In general I think I would prefer those with a working knowledge of a subject to be those initiating the process.

Wikipedia operates on the principle that entries are verifiable and not based on primary sources. So, in that case, simply posting information that you 'know' is likely to be challenged or removed because it can't be verified. Requiring use of secondary sources (rather than primary sources) helps ensure notability of the subject.

It's also important to remember that Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia, not a specialist railway one. So (for example) the topic of whether a particular set of tracks are called the 'slow', 'relief' or 'electric' probably doesn't belong there. Similarly using the 'correct' railway terminology for railway lines in and around the Lea Valley is probably unimportant; the routes via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are both in the Lea Valley, so describing them as the Lea Valley lines is probably fine for a general encyclopaedia.

 

[Philip C]

Wikipedia operates on the principle that entries are verifiable and not based on primary sources. So, in that case, simply posting information that you 'know' is likely to be challenged or removed because it can't be verified. Requiring use of secondary sources (rather than primary sources) helps ensure notability of the subject.

It's also important to remember that Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia, not a specialist railway one. So (for example) the topic of whether a particular set of tracks are called the 'slow', 'relief' or 'electric' probably doesn't belong there. Similarly using the 'correct' railway terminology for railway lines in and around the Lea Valley is probably unimportant; the routes via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are both in the Lea Valley, so describing them as the Lea Valley lines is probably fine for a general encyclopaedia.

Thank you for the clarification.

I was under the misapprehension that Wikipedia was intended to be a source of reference containing true statements in preference to false statements. Now I know that "it is probably fine" for lines to be identified as "the Lea Valley Lines" if they exist in the valley of the River Lea. This has the virtue of including both what I had confusedly understood to be the East Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line (as in Leagrave) in part within this definition of "the Lea Valley Lines".

Once again my thanks for the clarification.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I'm not particularly impressed that someone claiming a location of Canary Wharf could be so uncertain of what is and what is not the Lea Valley Line.

Is this really how Wikipedia works - the GIPO principle (Garbage In Perfection Out)? I can understand the logic of it (I think), but how do you know whether its current offering on any particular subject is nearer the output stage than the input stage? In general I think I would prefer those with a working knowledge of a subject to be those initiating the process.

Wikipedia operates on the principle that entries are verifiable and not based on primary sources. So, in that case, simply posting information that you 'know' is likely to be challenged or removed because it can't be verified. Requiring use of secondary sources (rather than primary sources) helps ensure notability of the subject.

It's also important to remember that Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia, not a specialist railway one. So (for example) the topic of whether a particular set of tracks are called the 'slow', 'relief' or 'electric' probably doesn't belong there. Similarly using the 'correct' railway terminology for railway lines in and around the Lea Valley is probably unimportant; the routes via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are both in the Lea Valley, so describing them as the Lea Valley lines is probably fine for a general encyclopaedia.

Thank you for the clarification.

I was under the misapprehension that Wikipedia was intended to be a source of reference containing true statements in preference to false statements. Now I know that "it is probably fine" for lines to be identified as "the Lea Valley Lines" if they exist in the valley of the River Lea. This has the virtue of including both what I had confusedly understood to be the East Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line (as in Leagrave) in part within this definition of "the Lea Valley Lines".

Once again my thanks for the clarification.

Well it's all a matter of who gets around to editing stuff. Quite what constitutes a line (and its name) is generally open to debate. For instance the GWML is certainly PAD-BRI, but some would probably include in it the route to Exeter, possibly all the way to Penzance. Then there's NR's GWML Upgrade Project, which goes all the way to Swansea and Newbury. Train operators also have an unfortunate tendency to brand their services, so services to Hayes are called the "Hayes Line", which starts at CHX and terminates at Hayes. But what that really is is part of the SEML and the Mid-Kent Line. Unfortunately Wikipedia is not primarily edited by experts, so things like this do tend to stay around. I only got the "Outer South London Line" (VIC-CYP-LBG) deleted last year as being a complete invention which just happened to be a service.

Wikipedia is by and large an excellent resource for information, but yes the quality is patchy. Thanks to me you can find in-depth detail about most Bristol stations, but many more major stations around the country have been paid only cursory attention, simply because no one has cared enough to invest the time into them.

If you think there's something wrong with a UK railway article, which goes beyond minor details, the best thing to do is go to the WikiProject UK Railways talk page, where I have started a discussion about the Lea Valley Lines. Hopefully we can get this particular bit sorted out.

 

[transmanche]

I was under the misapprehension that Wikipedia was intended to be a source of reference containing true statements in preference to false statements.

Who said anything about prefering false statements? As I said, for information to be included in Wikipedia it has to be verifiable.

Or in the words of Wikipedia itself:

In Wikipedia, verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.

Now I know that "it is probably fine" for lines to be identified as "the Lea Valley Lines" if they exist in the valley of the River Lea. This has the virtue of including both what I had confusedly understood to be the East Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line (as in Leagrave) in part within this definition of "the Lea Valley Lines".

Gosh, I can barely read your post through the thick layer of sarcasm.

Merely crossing the upper River Lea is not quite the same as following the path of the river along the wide River Lea floodplain.

I grew up in the area and they were always known locally as the Lea Valley lines.

 

[devon_metro]

Both LBC Radio and London Live tv are claiming that the closure of the Romford to Upminster line this afternoon is a TfL Rail service!

I noticed that London Overground was running a 'Good Service' according to their website. :roll:

 

[Philip C]

Who said anything about prefering false statements? As I said, for information to be included in Wikipedia it has to be verifiable.

Or in the words of Wikipedia itself:


Gosh, I can barely read your post through the thick layer of sarcasm.

Merely crossing the upper River Lea is not quite the same as following the path of the river along the wide River Lea floodplain.

I grew up in the area and they were always known locally as the Lea Valley lines.

My apologies. Clearly some good people are working hard to put useful information into the public domain and I'm being picky.

I think the interesting starting point is to resolve what constitutes a line. It's a bit of a portmanteau word meaning different things to engineering and to marketing departments to name but two.

I'm fairly clear in my own mind that 'The Lea Valley Line' passes through Brimsdown and that 'The Churchbury Loop' passes through Turkey Street and would get into a state of confusion with anyone that had a different understanding. However, whether the Lea Valley Line extends beyond Cheshunt I'm less sure. I recognise that both Lea Valley and Churchbury Loop trains exist between Liverpool Street and Hackney Downs even though they might properly be regarded as trains which will subsequently travel over the stated lines.

Where does this lead? I suspect that I'm saying that a category of line names reflects the names they were given at birth (or even conception). There is history locked up in them. The Churchbury Loop is just a loop because it connected at both ends with pre-existing lines when it was built; therefore it may not even extend beyond its defining junctions (Lower Edmonton, or whatever its newer name may be, may not even be on the Churchbury Loop nor possibly Cheshunt!). Did all lines have a name at birth?

However there are other categories of line names that originate elsewhere: the publicity department (the Tarka Line), those that reflect (later) company ownership (the Midland Main Line) and when did the expression West Coast Main Line come into existence? Enthusiasts and other interested parties will also be the source of line names (who coined The Withered Arm?).

For what it may be worth I'd commend the listing of line names under some classification of their origin. That would be a worthy project. PS. Volunteers wanted - I'm not up to it.

 

[dosxuk]

This sounds like the "British Rail Class zzz" argument all over again.

 

[jopsuk]

on the Network Rail diagrams between Hackney & Bishops Stortford it's the "Up & Down Cambridge" tracks, Hackney-Cheshunt is "Southbury" lines (Bury Junction to Enfield is "Enfield" lines). Between Bethnal Green & hackney they're "Fast" & "Suburban". The Chingford branch just uses "Up" and "Down", as does the main line north of Bishops Stortford.

 

[JaJaWa]

Here's the first photo I've seen of a refreshed TfL Rail Class 315 (via gceyre on Twitter). TfL replied to say the moquette design will also be used on the new Crossrail trains.

 

[450.emu]

Here's the first photo I've seen of a refreshed TfL Rail Class 315 (via gceyre on Twitter). TfL replied to say the moquette design will also be used on the new Crossrail trains.

looks good!

 

[jon0844]

I can't work out if the designer used to play this game (Yars Revenge) on the Atari 2600 as a child, or stared at the loading screen on a Commodore 64.

 

[transmanche]

For what it may be worth I'd commend the listing of line names under some classification of their origin. That would be a worthy project. PS. Volunteers wanted - I'm not up to it.

I'd suggest that it might be better to create a separate RailWiki, as the MediaWiki software is open source so anyone can use it to host their own Wiki project. The level of detail that you're suggesting is better suited to a specialist railway encyclopaedia, rather than a general one.