Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[baz962]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

My toc hasn't balloted , let alone actually go on strike. But I would one hundred percent back store staff and any other . Including but not limited to teachers, postal staff and any other that feel the need to strike.

 

[The_PlainTruth]

They want a 2 year deal but are offering less money than we are after for a one year deal and part of that is based on 'targets' being met.

I've no issue with TMS as we already use luminate and ARS at our place, the only real problems with it are when the TRC's put trains in platforms they can't go in or are prohibited from coupling or splitting. Out of 16 workstations only one of them uses Luminate daily. It is of no real benefit if your stations only have a few platform, its easier to just knock the train out of ARS and route manually.

No-one at my place sees TMS as an issue, the big thing is pay and an objection to the 6 months notice. I believe this has come about after the disastrous recruitment campaign for pilots who were laid off during covid. We had 20+ who came into grade 9 jobs and then left as soon as the airlines who started recruiting again. The joke was Network Rail had lost more pilots than the Luftwaffe did in the Battle of Britain. Hence also the lower starting pay during training to put off job hoppers.

 

[baz962]

I can't see what's clever about hitting a market that's more flexible, ie which has more alternative options. The result will be to push people into cars, instead of taking the opportunity to show them how the railways can provide a great service. So the industry misses an opportunity to grow.
There seems to be a belief that damaging the industry will hurt management more than it will hurt staff. But is there not a risk that if the industry shrinks, then management will find it easier to simply walk into other jobs than staff will?

To flip what you just said. The railway is older than anyone alive and most people don't use it. So more people get pushed into cars and for example on a Saturday that's going to possibly be brutally hot all decide to go to say Brighton. They get stuck in huge traffic queues and take a long time to get there and then can't get parked. All the time that is happening the kids are tired and screaming and the adults are overheated and stressed out and start to wish they had a railway , perhaps having never used it before.

 

[choochoochoo]

The issue perhaps isn't about whether there is a viable alternative to mass transportation - but the level of viable need for mass transportation after the profound shifts in office working patterns over the last two years.

There is viable need for mass transit. Having used the network over the last few months it can be seen the commuters may not have returned to pre-pandemic level, but the trains are far from empty. If the railways were closed then what ? These passengers would accept journey times double what they are now on buses ?

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

Having lived in a time before weekend trading laws were relaxed, I’d happily support supermarket staff if they wanted to strike. If you want the convenience of a 24/7 economy you should be prepared to pay for it.

 

[43096]

I appreciate you say you're close to the Government, so hear all sorts of mad ramblings, but are you really suggesting that a serious option is the closure of the railway? Over what we're told is a strike that is supposedly irrelevant, which could be ended with what would be fairly trivial changes in the offer being made, in the grand scheme of things. Instead, this increasingly bizarre nation would sooner consider abandoning it instead. I suppose the world is coming to expect the unique choices Britain makes, however at odds they are with global norms, but this would be quite something.

Either you're just stoking the flames or you're being served the kool aid at Great Minster House.

Never, ever, assume.

In the 1982 ASLEF dispute BR printed redundancy notices for the entire railway (ie shutting the railway). They were never sent as the union caved in at that point. We were more dependent on the railway then than we are now.

 

[RAPC]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

Yes, I suspect they would. I work in a non-unionised industry and these strikes, along with other ones in other sectors can and do inconvenience me. Do I support them, even with impact to myself? 100% I do.

The cost of living crisis for working people (as well as other groups, of course) is a genuine one. The Government and the media have been doing a very good job of demonising individual groups taking industrial action, mainly for wanting very realistic pay rises. Sadly, some of the general public are swallowing this hook, line and sinker.

The unions looking after the best interests of their members are not an enemy.
A group of people negotiating better pay, are not getting it to the detriment of someone else.
So yes, I think rail staff would be in full support of any other group choosing to strike at a weekend.

Union members more than most understand that a rising tide floats all boats, not the opposite.

 

[Shrop]

To flip what you just said. The railway is older than anyone alive and most people don't use it. So more people get pushed into cars and for example on a Saturday that's going to possibly be brutally hot all decide to go to say Brighton. They get stuck in huge traffic queues and take a long time to get there and then can't get parked. All the time that is happening the kids are tired and screaming and the adults are overheated and stressed out and start to wish they had a railway , perhaps having never used it before.

Yes, you have a point. The only thing is, this almost sounds like you're suggesting that a rail strike could be a good way to encourage more rail use. Okay, there's a chance that your idea could work, but it sounds like a massive gamble. And certainly not the reason why strikes are planned.

 

[Goldfish62]

But is there not a risk that if the industry shrinks, then management will find it easier to simply walk into other jobs than staff will?

The regularity with which senior managers are appointed from outside the industry answers that.

In general the higher you get the more transferable your skills are, so yes they can just walk away and get another, probably better paid, job elsewhere.

 

[RT4038]

L

The blank cheques have been available to pay for Tory ideology, i.e the ongoing exorbitant leasing costs, as well as 3% profit to keep private companies involved.

And that justifies blank cheques to everybody?

 

[yorksrob]

And that justifies blank cheques to everybody?

No, it suggests that if we're ruling out blank cheques for one aspect of the industry, we should look at what value is added (or not) by the blank cheques that exist elsewhere.

 

[gazzaa2]

Which to some degree ignores the fact that Labour continued implementing Beeching and merrily closed lines after taking power in 1964, including such routes as the Somerset & Dorset, Great Central London extension, and most outrageously the entire Waverley route, some of which has since been rebuilt at huge expense. And, remind me please, under which party was the already-started Channel Tunnel cancelled, and under which party was it constructed ?

IMHO the Tories have been prepared to support the railway where justified (think of the amount of electrification carried out in the 80s and 90s) but not to write a blank cheque for them, forever. Which is not to say that their conduct in the present disputes is helping the situation, at all, but then neither are the politically-motivated aims of the RMT's Executive.

Labour's record only strengthens the point. Anything in the hands of government in this country is a mess. Look at the health service. The point was it's mostly the Tories in power.

 

[Goldfish62]

No, it suggests that if we're ruling out blank cheques for one aspect of the industry, we should look at what value is added (or not) by the blank cheques that exist elsewhere.

Involving the ROSCOs in the debate is a waste of time.

Notable that even Corbyn Labour knew they couldn't touch the leasing companies. They're untouchable. It's the way the system has been set up.

 

[Carlisle]

A strike is always a last resort.

Why do a sizeable number of countries have laws restricting strikes in certain sectors but not others, ?
If your statement is correct they’d simply not exist as strikes would be so rare, it’d be a non issue.

 

[yorksrob]

Involving the ROSCOs in the debate is a waste of time.

Notable that even Corbyn Labour knew they couldn't touch the leasing companies. They're untouchable. It's the way the system has been set up.

And parliament's aren't supposed to be able to bind their successors !

 

[Shrop]

The regularity with which senior managers are appointed from outside the industry answers that.

In general the higher you get the more transferable your skills are, so yes they can just walk away and get another, probably better paid, job elsewhere.

Sadly all too true. Our railways are a business first and foremost, and running them for the benefit of the customers is almost an incidental second. It's no wonder that oldies like me have fond memories of the days when working for the railways was something to be proud of. Management and staff alike took pleasure in providing a good service for their customers, and yes of course there are some staff who still do today, but what a shame that so many simply don't (and yes, there are many, many examples!). And arguably management are even worse, when they can so readily just walk out of the industry to wherever the money takes them.

 

[The Planner]

Sadly all too true. Our railways are a business first and foremost, and running them for the benefit of the customers is almost an incidental second. It's no wonder that oldies like me have fond memories of the days when working for the railways was something to be proud of. Management and staff alike took pleasure in providing a good service for their customers, and yes of course there are some staff who still do today, but what a shame that so many simply don't (and yes, there are many, many examples!). And arguably management are even worse, when they can so readily just walk out of the industry to wherever the money takes them.

Doesn't that apply to any industry?

 

[Signal_Box]

Does anyone get the feeling that if the leaders of the RMT did not carry around the baggage of thinking that it is not just a major trades union, but also a socialist political party in waiting, that it would serve its membership far better and devote all its time to looking after the interests of its membership as its sole aim.

Hence why I left the union, I’m not interested in changing the political world and lining the top table pockets.

 

[Shrop]

Doesn't that apply to any industry?

The fact that management are deemed to have transferable skills, yes, although I would argue that a genuine feeling of loyalty towards the railway is more important than most seem to believe.
However, I would also argue that pre-Beeching, the railways were right up there among the most proud industries to work for. Does that really apply today, or do an ever increasing number of the workforce simply see them as a means to an end, ie just a job?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The fact that management are deemed to have transferable skills, yes, although I would argue that a genuine feeling of loyalty towards the railway is more important than most seem to believe.
However, I would also argue that pre-Beeching, the railways were right up there among the most proud industries to work for. Does that really apply today, or do an ever increasing number of the workforce simply see them as a means to an end, ie just a job?

When I reached my mid-30s and was in my first days of senior managerial roles, I did change positions to those in a similar industry where management expertise was seen to be a transferable skill and to have the ability to adapt such gained knowledge to a new role. Good managers have such skills and progress onwards.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is what I mean. The industrial action situation is bringing out a repulsive hostility/defensiveness in many people.

Yes I thought I would get a break by coming home to the UK for a holiday from the USA. The toxicity of it all whatever side you are on upsets me. Both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[TUC]

The last set of strikes came and went for most people and life just went on. The next set will do the same.

 

[baz962]

Yes, you have a point. The only thing is, this almost sounds like you're suggesting that a rail strike could be a good way to encourage more rail use. Okay, there's a chance that your idea could work, but it sounds like a massive gamble. And certainly not the reason why strikes are planned.

Of course not and I wouldn't advocate that , but being worried about pushing people into cars shouldn't be a reason not to strike.

 

[142blue]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

Yes if the staff were being treated badly, suffering pay cuts, working with less people to do the same job. Absolutely

 

[baz962]

The fact that management are deemed to have transferable skills, yes, although I would argue that a genuine feeling of loyalty towards the railway is more important than most seem to believe.
However, I would also argue that pre-Beeching, the railways were right up there among the most proud industries to work for. Does that really apply today, or do an ever increasing number of the workforce simply see them as a means to an end, ie just a job?

To be fair I absolutely love my job and interacting with passengers makes my day although not as much if they are rude or aggressive and as a driver I don't have a lot of contact. But loving my job won't pay the bills. Personally I wouldn't ask for an inflation busting rise . But with 0% last year and 0% this year, something would be nice.

 

[Signal_Box]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

Suits me, online shopping delivered mid week as I work 3 out of 4 weekends, usually 4 out of 4 Saturday as well.

A 72 hour week is normal for me, and has been since before covid.

 

[JonathanH]

The last set of strikes came and went for most people and life just went on. The next set will do the same.

Indeed, that is the problem with strikes. Once they have happened, the only threat is more strikes, whereas the employer can still have just the same proposals on the table.

 

[Signal_Box]

Never, ever, assume.

In the 1982 ASLEF dispute BR printed redundancy notices for the entire railway (ie shutting the railway). They were never sent as the union caved in at that point. We were more dependent on the railway then than we are now.

Why should those who don’t strike and who are non union be thrown into the same boat as those who are and do?

 

[Estrella709]

When I reached my mid-30s and was in my first days of senior managerial roles, I did change positions to those in a similar industry where management expertise was seen to be a transferable skill and to have the ability to adapt such gained knowledge to a new role. Good managers have such skills and progress onwards.

Good managers are key to running any business but seemingly a rarity on the modern day railway. TOC's these days seem to think anyone can be turned into a manager simply by quoting buzzwords at interview or by being in the local clique and then by attending some in house training course. I've worked with some shockers in the past.

 

[choochoochoo]

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

The beauty of overtime ban/work to rule is it inserts uncertainty into the timetable. Just look at all the cancellations that happen due to a shortage of train crew. The higher levels that plan/organise go into meltdown when there are unplanned cancellations leading to more chaos.

TOCs/Passengers hate uncertainty as it causes last minute cancellations and unplanned disruption !! With a full on strike, there is a lot more certainty so TOCs can plan their resources a lot more easily.

 

[KM1991]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

The time for supermarket and supply chain staff to mass strike is so overdue. They desperately need a stronger union.