RMT vote 4 to 1 to strike over NR pay

[ADRboy]

As an outsider to the industry I'm sure I am missing much of the picture. As this is a debate I'm more than happy for you to explain what I'm missing and why I'm wrong and I'll change my opinion if it sounds reasonable.

What is so different about the rail industry that strike action is justified when you don't get a pay rise when in other industries it simply doesn't work like this?

Because the railway is booming and can afford to pay a decent wage. Just because you've chosen to accept what you're given, doesn't mean the rest of us should.

 

[ComUtoR]

What is so different about the rail industry that strike action is justified when you don't get a pay rise when in other industries it simply doesn't work like this?

Firstly the strike is justified because the workers believe that they deserve an improvement to their terms and conditions as well as fair remuneration for their hard work. ANYBODY not just the rail industry deserves to take action to protect their working conditions as well as wages. This being union based they are legally entitled to strike.

Continually comparing industries is a fallacious argument. Its nonsensical. Why should your wages be directly compared to someone in a totally different sector ? Should the wage rise of the person in McDonalds determine my pay rise as a Train driver ? The argument also falls flat because it is only being compared with a negative side. "Others haven't had a rise so neither should the railway." However; others have had over and above rises but those comparisons are never used to justify a rise. Shouldn't both sides be used ? Those who have had a rise should also form part of that argument but a bias is being used to push a specific rhetoric.

Wages are very complicated. As you posted you have a contractual agreement. You can complain all you like but you did agree the terms. Just as I support the RMT in this I would also support you if you took action to better your conditions and salary.

 

[mac]

I have not read all the pages in this thread so this has maybe been answered, if the trains don't run because of a strike will NR have to pay the TOC's like any other delay

 

[plastictaffy]

Unfortunately for NR's RMT members, yet again the press have described it as a straight forward case of not enough money. This is not true.

NR "offered" a one-off payment of £500 with no actual payrise. That money, of course, wouldn't count towards pensionable pay, as it was a one off payment. They also said that for, I think it was the following 2 financial years, that they would get a payrise in line with RPI - all well and good, except the payrise would be based on what they earn now, as no payrise will have been applied this year. So in effect, it's a pay cut.......

This goes on of course, while the top dog at NR trousers a salary of 600 and something thousand, an 80k increase on his predecessor. But there's no money to give the troops a payrise. Mm-hmm.

 

[Simon11]

NR hardly have any choice, they have a huge debt issues and simply cannot afford to give out large pay rises. I simply don't understand the comments of people saying that NR make a huge profit....

As for the comment for the top directors receiving too much, I personally think that a salary of over £500k is worth it for their experience and dedication to the job. I personally wouldn't want to be in such a hard and difficult job- it won't be a 9-5! Remember that they only have to make one simple change to save millions if not billions, so £500k is small money in comparison.

 

[yorksrob]

Has a date (s) been set for this possible rail strike. I did hear that it could be as soon as the forthcoming late May Bank Holiday weekend. However not sure how credible that info was?

Surely a working day would be more likely ?

 

[plastictaffy]

NR hardly have any choice, they have a huge debt issues and simply cannot afford to give out large pay rises. I simply don't understand the comments of people saying that NR make a huge profit....

As for the comment for the top directors receiving too much, I personally think that a salary of over £500k is worth it for their experience and dedication to the job. I personally wouldn't want to be in such a hard and difficult job- it won't be a 9-5! Remember that they only have to make one simple change to save millions if not billions, so £500k is small money in comparison.

The Prime Minister has a salary of 142,500, which in my opinion must be much more stressful than running NR!!!! I should imagine a lot of stress must be caused by resisting the urge to invade France.......

Seriously though, 600k to run a railway system?? He sits in an office all day, probably knows nothing about the railways and how it all works, while the thousands of employees are out in all weathers, at all times of the day and night fixing faults??

 

[Robertj21a]

The Prime Minister has a salary of 142,500, which in my opinion must be much more stressful than running NR!!!! I should imagine a lot of stress must be caused by resisting the urge to invade France.......

Seriously though, 600k to run a railway system?? He sits in an office all day, probably knows nothing about the railways and how it all works, while the thousands of employees are out in all weathers, at all times of the day and night fixing faults??

I think you will find that he is paid that much money to *manage* the business. Many people can, probably, go out in all weathers, at all times of the day and night fixing faults. Far fewer people will have the intellectual ability to manage, plan, motivate and be legally and financially aware of the overall, ever-changing, situation in which any complex organisation must exist.

Hardly anybody on here seems to actually understand that a *manager* is employed to *manage* !!

 

[DarloRich]

NR hardly have any choice, they have a huge debt issues and simply cannot afford to give out large pay rises. I simply don't understand the comments of people saying that NR make a huge profit...

You simply dont understand the railways then: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27807509

As for the comment for the top directors receiving too much, I personally think that a salary of over £500k is worth it for their experience and dedication to the job. I personally wouldn't want to be in such a hard and difficult job- it won't be a 9-5! Remember that they only have to make one simple change to save millions if not billions, so £500k is small money in comparison.

over 4 times what the Prime minster is paid? Compare the wage paid to the chief executive of NHS England: https://www.england.nhs.uk/2013/10/24/simon-stevens-appoint/

If the RMT members of NR are to be compared to nurses and teachers let the senior management be so compared

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think you will find that he is paid that much money to *manage* the business. Many people can, probably, go out in all weathers, at all times of the day and night fixing faults. Far fewer people will have the intellectual ability to manage, plan, motivate and be legally and financially aware of the overall, ever-changing, situation in which any complex organisation must exist.

Hardly anybody on here seems to actually understand that a *manager* is employed to *manage* !!

The Prime Minister has a team of advisors to help him "manage" and there are certain things he can and cannot do.

There are some managers who do "manage" and some managers who simply "delegate". Some managers sit back and let their subordinates do the actual "work" whilst some managers are happy to muddle in and get their hands dirty. Which camp is the NR manager in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

over 4 times what the Prime minster is paid? Compare the wage paid to the chief executive of NHS England: https://www.england.nhs.uk/2013/10/24/simon-stevens-appoint/.

And NHS England is a bonfire of quangos answerable only to the Secretary of State of Health. Who is Mr Carne directly accountable to? The Minister of Transport?

 

[carriageline]

NR hardly have any choice, they have a huge debt issues and simply cannot afford to give out large pay rises. I simply don't understand the comments of people saying that NR make a huge profit....

As for the comment for the top directors receiving too much, I personally think that a salary of over £500k is worth it for their experience and dedication to the job. I personally wouldn't want to be in such a hard and difficult job- it won't be a 9-5! Remember that they only have to make one simple change to save millions if not billions, so £500k is small money in comparison.

Please, answer me this. As every employee would love the answer. If we (as a company) can afford to give him the pay rise, and the bonus he is taking, why can't we afford to give us all one? After all, if we are really that hard up, then NO ONE should be getting a rise. No matter how small in comparison. Lead from the front, take a pay cut your self!

He hasn't been in the job long at all, in fact Mr Hufton has been in under a year (IIRC), but yet deserves the rise over Higgins?

Yes he has a hard job, I don't argue what he earns as to get "the best" you need to pay the mon y that commands. But the people making the profit are the coal face workers, every day keeping trains moving on what little we have.

 

[455driver]

I agree with your entire post but wanted to correct this part-

They also said that for, I think it was the following 2 financial years, that they would get a payrise in line with RPI

It is actually CPI which was going to be used which is normally lower than the RPI figure!

 

[carriageline]

I agree with your entire post but wanted to correct this part-





It is actually CPI was going to be used which is normally lower than the RPI figure!

Original offer was CPI, this was then changed to RPI with the revised when the union confronted this (unable to find the OP so unsure what offer is being talked about)

 

[Simon11]

You simply dont understand the railways then: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27807509

I think I do..........

Network Rail has as of 2014, debt of £34 billion pounds, which has been growing by around £3 billion pounds every year.

Yes they may have profit of £1 billion pounds, but NR is being funded by debt and this simply can't continue. On crude figures, it would take 34 years for NR to repay its debt without spending any more money on big investment projects.

As for information source, check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/business...l-piublic-sector-dont-call-it-nationalisation

This is sort of similar to how Manchester United & Glazer situation.

 

[Jonny]

Surely a working day would be more likely ?

I suspect that it would cause absolute chaos and risk the staff being classed as essential workers.

Remember the mockumentary "The Day Britain Stopped"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6BxSbx1Fm0

 

[Simon11]

Please, answer me this. As every employee would love the answer. If we (as a company) can afford to give him the pay rise, and the bonus he is taking, why can't we afford to give us all one? After all, if we are really that hard up, then NO ONE should be getting a rise. No matter how small in comparison. Lead from the front, take a pay cut your self!

He hasn't been in the job long at all, in fact Mr Hufton has been in under a year (IIRC), but yet deserves the rise over Higgins?

Yes he has a hard job, I don't argue what he earns as to get "the best" you need to pay the mon y that commands. But the people making the profit are the coal face workers, every day keeping trains moving on what little we have.

All I will say is that from the 2014 NR Reports, Employee costs are £1.910 million pounds per year. To give everyone a 2% rise, this would cost £38.2 million pounds for 2015. In 2016, that pay rise given in 2015 would cost £39.0m and £39.7m for 2017 etc etc. Note that this will increase additional costs for pension and national insurance.

I'm not for or against Network Rail getting a decent pay rise, but it is important to understand why NR is going down this path. They are in massive debt with no clear road to reduce this debt and they must cut costs where possible.

 

[High Dyke]

Is this all NR staff or only certain groups?

Operations & Customer Services (signallers, supervisors [aka MOMs], station staff) and Maintenance staff. Also those staff in pay bands 5-8 (mainly office based staff)

The £500 is less than RPI, and not consolidated, so it is a real terms cut.
The 3 further years RPI only just accentuates the pay cut, and with a lot of signal boxes closing, a 2 year non-compulsory redundancy agreement for a 4 year deal is short.

Keep in mind that all this comes at a time where the first offer contained an attack on conditions, which set the tone, the second offer contained a railcard useless to many staff, all while the very senior management were given lavish increases over their predecessors.

We've been told in propaganda sent to our homes to compare ourselves to Nurses, and NHS staff.
Data point. Top NR management are remunerated far, far higher than the chief executive of the NHS. (4-5 times as much, ISTR)

Put those insulting offers together while running more trains, with less staff, all when costs are being cut throughout maintenance, the lack of dignity when dealing with closing boxes, the lack of re-training for Signallers who would want to stay in the industry, the workforce are thoroughly fed up with the ever increasing vastly paid management who do not practice what they preach when it comes to pay and conditions.

It's become a perfect storm for a vote for industrial action.

Hear, hear

I have not read all the pages in this thread so this has maybe been answered, if the trains don't run because of a strike will NR have to pay the TOC's like any other delay

If industrial action takes the form of a strike then TOCs may have a contingency plan in place to reduce services or stop certain routes. If their trains don't run then it would be agreed with NR that payment isn't made (i stand to be corrected).

 

[Simon11]

Surely a working day would be more likely ?

Firstly the RMT are most likely going to wait until TSSA inform if they will also strike.

I personally would put my money on getting the news next Tuesday, so the strike will impact people getting back to work after the bank holiday. If there are any engineering work over the bank holiday weekend and this gets towards Monday evening, then there will be major issues.

 

[High Dyke]

RMT circular from the first meeting with NR.

Our Ref BR5/0001 and BR4/0001
Circular IR/281/14

23rd October 2014

TO ALL BRANCHES, REGIONAL COUNCILS AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Dear Colleagues

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL

(OPERATIONS AND CUSTOMER SERVICES & MAINTENANCE STAFF)

I write to advise branches that we met with Network Rail last week to discuss our claim for the 2015 pay award covering Operations & Customer Services and Maintenance staff. The details of our discussions, which are held separately for Ops and Maintenance, were fed back to the relevant Area Council reps who attended meetings at Unity House this week.

At this stage no offers have been tabled by the company but crucially they did stated that any pay increase would have to be self-funded from efficiency savings. Having relayed this position back to our reps, the overwhelming view is that members will not tolerate any attacks on terms and conditions and this will be our clear position we will take forward into future talks.

Following consultation with reps on our priorities, a formal pay claim has been submitted this week and below are listed the main areas of our claim.

• A substantial increase in Rates of Pay and Allowances. Any increase to be paid in full to Band 5 to 8 staff regardless of performance marks.
• A substantial increase to the salary bands for Band 5 to 8 Staff
• A minimum flat rate increase for those on the lowest rates of pay.
• A reduction in the working week.
• An end to the practice of permanently managed vacancies.
• Improved family friendly policies.
• Full travel facilities for all staff.
• An extension to the “no compulsory redundancy” commitment.
• For Maintenance staff we are seeking a long overdue increase to PDTA and Disturbance allowances.

We are in the process of organising further discussions with the company over the next few weeks and I shall keep branches advised of any further developments.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash

General Secretary

First offer by NR.

Circular No IR/336/14

18th December 2014

TO ALL BRANCHES, REGIONAL COUNCIL AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Dear Colleagues

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL (Maintenance, Operations, Customer Services and Role Clarity Bands 5 to 8)

I write to advise branches that myself and our National Operations Council and National Maintenance Council representatives met with Network Rail today to discuss the 2015 pay claims. The company has now tabled the following four year offers:-

Maintenance

2015

An increase of "up to 2%” on basis of discussions and agreement on the following productivity issues:-

· Annual leave to be booked in hours rather than days

· S&T teams to be sized by task. Minimum 3 person team levels to be removed.

· Removing the guaranteed day free from duty to attend a medical.

· Ending the Stood Off arrangements.

2016,2017,2018

A CPI level of inflation increase to basic rates of pay over a three year period. RPI will not be used to calculate inflation as in previous pay deals.

Operations

2015

An increase of "up to 2%" on basis of discussions and agreement on the following productivity issues:-

• A review of the National Rostering Principles on the following issues by April 2015:-

• Removal of 12 hour shifts
  
• Clarification of the Additional Hour provision
  
• Change to the 48 hour notice period for Relief and Flexible Signallers
  
• Annual Leave to be booked in hours rather than days
  
• A Review and Harmonisation of Overtime Rates
  
• Removing the guaranteed day free from duty to attend a medical.
  
• Ending the Stood Off arrangements.

2016, 2017, 2018

A CPI level of inflation increase to basic rates of pay over a three year period. RPI will not be used to calculate inflation as in previous pay deals.

Network rail did confirm that they did not propose to extend the No Compulsory redundancy agreement which currently applies for all grades in Maintenance, Operations, Customer Services and Bands 5 to 8 would not be extended however the existing arrangement will continue to apply for the duration of the pay talks. Network Rail has not yet responded to a number of the items in our formal pay submissions but we expect full and detailed proposals in the very near future.

Our Position

We advised Management that we are totally opposed to any changes to members terms and conditions as we do not agree that productively should form part of your pay award, we also advised them that we did not accept the change to CPI (Consumer Price Index) from PRI (Retail Price Index) this being a cynical way of lessening the award. As you would expect we also asked for a clear unambiguous guarantee on job security.

We obviously need to give proper consideration to our position and discuss the offer with our second stage representatives, both operations and Maintenance, and I am arranging for a meeting to be held at this office on Monday 12th January to discuss the proposals. Having taken into account the views of the representatives we will then have a further meeting with Network Rail on Wednesday 21st January. I will of course keep you advised of developments.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash

General Secretary

The next meeting held with NR.

Circular No IR/23/15

22nd January 2015

TO ALL BRANCHES, REGIONAL COUNCILS AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Dear Colleagues

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL (MAINTENANCE, OPERATIONS, CUSTOMER SERVICES AND ROLE CLARITY BANDS 5 TO 8)

I write to advise branches that myself and our National Operations Council and National Maintenance Council representatives met with Network Rail yesterday to further discuss their initial proposals for the 2015 pay award.

As outlined in my previous circular (IR 336/14, 18th December 2014), the initial offer stated that any increase for 2015 needed to be “self-funding”. In order to get an “up to 2%” increase we would need to accept a number of productivity strings for Operations and Maintenance staff. However if we rejected these strings, we were told there would be no pay increase for 2015. The last three years of the deal would also be calculated using CPI (an inferior benchmark for inflation than RPI) and they offered no extension to the “No Compulsory Redundancy agreement.

I recently met with all our Area Council reps to discuss these proposals at Unity House. The clear and overwhelming view was that members are not prepared to sell terms and conditions in order to get a pay rise. At the outset of today’s talks I therefore advised management of our rejection of their proposals.

Following an adjournment management returned with an improved four year offer which is summarised below:-

2015

The productivity items previously tabled for both Operations and Maintenance are withdrawn and no pay increase is proposed for 2015.

2016,2017,2018

Network Rail propose an RPI level of inflation increase to basic rates of pay for each year. The November RPI figure, published in the previous December, will be used to calculate these increases. If RPI were to fall below 0%, the company would not seek to make pay cuts. This is a significant improvement as Network Rail were proposing to use CPI to calculate the increases, which as stated above is a significantly lower measure of inflation. For example CPI is currently 0.5% and RPI is 1.6%.

Commitment to No Compulsory Redundancies for 2015

The No Compulsory Redundancy commitment will be extended to 31st December 2015. The previous commitment expired at the end of 2014 and no promise was made to extend it further in their initial proposals.

This commitment affects all staff working under Network Operations (Operations, Signalling, Maintenance, Band 5 to 8 staff and Customer Service Staff). The company will be seeking meetings with us to discuss the subject of job security during 2015.

Travel facilities

For staff currently not receiving privilege travel, Network Rail will provide an annual National Rail card giving a 1/3 reduction in off peak travel for employees, their friends and family. Although this is a taxable benefit, the company plan to cover this cost.

As branches will be aware, many members receive Privilege Travel Facilities but over 25400 staff, many of whom joined the industry since privatisation, receive nothing at all. Until now Network Rail has refused our repeated claims for improved travel facilities, claiming it is a matter for us to discuss with the Train Operators. This proposal, if accepted, will finally get our foot in the door and give us a channel to negotiate further improvements. We have requested an annual review of these arrangements where we will have this opportunity.

I am making arrangements for a national meeting of our Area Council reps to discuss this new offer in early February. I will keep branches advised of developments.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash

General Secretary

The circular following discussions by RMT Reps. (Decision to ballot for rejection of the offer).

Circular No IR/64/15

6th March 2015

TO ALL BRANCHES, REGIONAL COUNCILS AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Dear Colleagues

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL

We will shortly be sending referendum papers to all Network Rail members in Operations, Maintenance, Customer Services and Bands 5 to 8 staff over the company’s current pay offer. We are recommending members vote “NO” to reject these proposals which we believe fall well short of our member’s aspirations. Below you will find a summary of the offer,: -

• 2015 - A 0% increase in pay.
• 2016, 2017, 2018 - An RPI level of inflation increase in pay would be applied for each year.
• The “No Compulsory Redundancy” commitment would be extended until 31st December 2015.
• Network Rail will provide an annual National Rail Card giving a 33% reduction in off peak travel for employees, their friends and family.

As far as we are concerned 0% in 2015 is a pay cut as members’ pay will not keep up with the cost of living. The Travel card offer is nothing more than a card that can be purchased by any member of the travelling public, falling well short of our demand of free travel for all. In addition, we are extremely concerned that the “No Compulsory Redundancy” commitment only applies to the first year of the four year deal. We believe this leaves Operations and Maintenance members extremely vulnerable, especially with the continued development of Rail Operating Centres and the ongoing budget cuts programme.

Having discussed this proposal with your reps, RMT is strongly recommending members vote “NO” to reject this offer. Members have been advised that if the offer is rejected, this will trigger a ballot for industrial action. Voting papers will be despatched to members from Monday 9th March 2015 with a closing date of Tuesday 24th March 2015. If you are aware of any member who has not received their voting papers by Tuesday 17th March 2015 please ask them contact us as soon as possible so that one can be sent out to them.

Late Update: We have just received a letter from Network Rail advising that they are aware we are conducting a referendum on the offer with a recommendation to reject. They advise that if the offer is rejected, the current offer will “come off the table”.

Regardless of the last ditch intervention from Network Rail, we will continue with the referendum and allow members to decide through the democratic process on how the union proceeds. Our recommendation, which was determined following detailed discussions with our Area Council reps, remains that members should vote NO to reject the offer.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash

General Secretary

Talks at ACAS

Circular IR//15

2nd April 2015

TO ALL BRANCHES, REGIONAL COUNCILS AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Dear Colleagues,

PAY TALKS UPDATE

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL

Our negotiating team including myself, the National President and our National Maintenance and Operations Council representatives have this week held two sets of pay discussions with Network Rail under the auspices of ACAS. These discussions are currently adjourned while both sides consider their positions.

We anticipate further meetings in the very near future and I will keep members and branches fully informed of any developments.

Yours sincerely
Mick Cash

General Secretary

Update circular.

Our Ref BR6/0001

Circular No IR/95/15

8th April 2015

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR ALL NETWORK RAIL MEMBERS

Dear Colleagues

RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015 – NETWORK RAIL

Branches will be aware that we have been in negotiations with Network Rail since October 2014 on pay and we have been made a number of offers by the company.

In December 2014 they offered a 4 year pay deal with up to 2% for 2015 but linked to stringent productivity items that would have worsened members’ terms and conditions. In addition they only offered, for the 3 remaining years, lower inflation rate increases. Finally they would not extend the “No Compulsory Redundancy” agreement beyond December 2014. Your union quite rightly rejected this offer and following further negotiations the company made a revised offer in January 2015.

That offer withdrew the productivity strings but continued with a four year pay deal comprising of zero percent in 2015 and RPI increases for 2016, 2017 and 2018. They also offered a one year extension of the “No Compulsory Redundancy” agreement until the end of 2015 and the provision of an annual National Rail card. That second offer did not meet your aspirations as you voted by 93% to reject it!

Since the result of the referendum, the union has been in a series of intensive talks with Network Rail at ACAS and, as a result of these talks, a revised offer has been made which is as follows:-

Year One

For 2015 – A £500 non-consolidated lump sum for all staff (pro rata for part time staff) covered by bargaining groups.

Years Two, Three and Four

For 2016, 2017, 2018 - A consolidated RPI percentage increase with a guarantee of no salary reduction if RPI falls below zero percent, based on November of the previous year as reported in December. The anniversary date of 1st January remains the same.

Pay Equality

Network Rail has confirmed they are committed to equality proofing its pay arrangements.

Travel

The previous offer to provide an annual National Rail Card has been withdrawn.

Job Security

Non Compulsory Redundancy Arrangements

Network Rail has confirmed that they will extend the agreement during 2015 and 2016 for all bands 5-8 and equivalents in the bargaining groups - Maintenance, Operations and Controllers.

Employment Protection Understanding

Network Rail has given a firm commitment to avoid compulsory redundancies and to work within the principles of the current PTR&R arrangements by:

1) ¬Providing genuine redeployment opportunities, including re-training and relocation

2) Use of voluntary severance and possible bumping opportunities

3) Agreeing to have in place a formal agreement based on this understanding which has been consulted and agreed within six months of today, and to have a full joint review of its working within 12 months of today’s date. (7th April 2015)

4) Network Rail will endorse this agreement and mandate its implementation across the organisation and ensure its implementation.

The General Grades Committee has considered the revised offer and has decided to call a meeting of our Network Rail Area Council representatives on Thursday 16th April at Unity House before considering our response to Network Rail’s revised offer.

I shall keep Branches informed of any developments.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash
General Secretary

This is the point where the industrial action ballot was implemented.

Apologies for taking up so much space.

 

[455driver]

Why is NR racking up such massive debts?
Could it possibly be the idealistic way the railways were sold off which turned them into nothing more than a money go round (except for the millions skimmed off the top to pay all the bonuses/dividends)?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But the people making the profit are the coal face workers, every day keeping trains moving on what little we have.

I do wish that people would desist from using the term "coal-face workers" as a comparative term in such arguments. Those particular workers worked in underground conditions far worse than those of any surface-based jobs that may be alluded to on this thread.

Compare the death toll of coal miners in those underground areas with those of railway staff since the advent of the railways and see what figures you come up with.

 

[Bodiddly]

I do wish that people would desist from using the term "coal-face workers" as a comparative term in such arguments. Those particular workers worked in underground conditions far worse than those of any surface-based jobs that may be alluded to on this thread.m

Compare the death toll of coal miners in those underground areas with those of railway staff since the advent of the railways and see what figures you come up with.

Come on Paul, it's a term used commonly about a labour dispute. The coal face is simply a term for front line staff. It's in no way a true reflection on how our miners had to endure such horrific working conditions in the days before industrial relations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Come on Paul, it's a term used commonly about a labour dispute. The coal face is simply a term for front line staff. It's in no way a true reflection on how our miners had to endure such horrific working conditions in the days before industrial relations.

Perhaps my reading earlier today of the story of the Gresford pit disaster had still been at the back of my mind when I made that posting earlier, but nonetheless, to use that particular term is, as far as I am and always will be adamantly concerned, to be in very poor taste, especially when used by fellow Trade Unionists, who should have far more respect for those dead underground workers, and they should most certainly come up with another working trade term instead to describe the type of situation to which you so allude.

 

[wijit]

Perhaps my reading earlier today of the story of the Gresford pit disaster had still been at the back of my mind when I made that posting earlier, but nonetheless, to use that particular term is, as far as I am and always will be adamantly concerned, to be in very poor taste, especially when used by fellow Trade Unionists, who should have far more respect for those dead underground workers, and they should most certainly come up with another working trade term instead to describe the type of situation to which you so allude.

Sorry to add to this unnecessary distraction from the real issue of the thread, but this is ridiculous. "Front line" refers to Military front line, those who were at the front of battle lines. Perhaps you feel more respect should be shown to the millions lost in conflict? Exactly what would you want people to be referred to as? It's a phrase: nothing more, nothing less.

To go back on topic though, (and speaking as one who objects to striking completely), may I ask how those within the industry feel about this? Personally, I think there is an increasing public perception that railworkers in general are always wanting more for less. I do know this isn't the case, and I also know there is also usually a safety aspect to disputes too. May I also ask if there is a feeling this is possibly a leverage tool as opposed to genuine concern? Do you feel the media do not report such disputes properly?
Please be aware that this is merely playing devils advocate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry to add to this unnecessary distraction from the real issue of the thread, but this is ridiculous. "Front line" refers to Military front line, those who were at the front of battle lines. Perhaps you feel more respect should be shown to the millions lost in conflict? Exactly what would you want people to be referred to as? It's a phrase: nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps you should take time to read the particular posting to which annoyed me. "Front line" as referring to the Military front line where millions have died over the last time period, was NOT shown in that posting, but what was shown were the words "Coal Face" in that posting and the implied reference to the miners who died were just carrying out their working lives in that industry, not offering to give up their lives in defence of their country, as many of the last few generations have done.

For heavens sake, be more careful with your posting responses and ensure that you refer to what was written rather than what you thought should have been written...

 

[Robertj21a]

The Prime Minister has a team of advisors to help him "manage" and there are certain things he can and cannot do.

There are some managers who do "manage" and some managers who simply "delegate". Some managers sit back and let their subordinates do the actual "work" whilst some managers are happy to muddle in and get their hands dirty. Which camp is the NR manager in?
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over 4 times what the Prime minster is paid? Compare the wage paid to the chief executive of NHS England: https://www.england.nhs.uk/2013/10/24/simon-stevens-appoint/.

And NHS England is a bonfire of quangos answerable only to the Secretary of State of Health. Who is Mr Carne directly accountable to? The Minister of Transport?

A good *manager* uses the most appropriate tools to run any business, that's why he's called a manger. He may decide to run bits of it himself, or delegate, or motivate others to assume greater responsibility etc etc. His skill as the overall manager often results from which tools he uses at different times and/or in different conditions.

 

[Seaeagle]

Strike to start from 17.00 Monday 25th for 24 hours. I assume services will be wound down prior to that if it goes ahead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Strike to start from 17.00 Monday 25th for 24 hours. I assume services will be wound down prior to that if it goes ahead.

A pity it was the wrong Bank Holiday in May that was chosen, for then the old socialist saying could be trumpeted across the length and breadth of this country...All out, May Day.

 

[The Planner]

48 hour overtime ban from the second bank holiday though on the 25th.

 

[carriageline]

Where have you got this from?