Southern Trains major disruption due to conductor rail problem near Clapham Jn 30/04

[EM2]

Didn't he need to be somewhere or was he just out on a little jolly?

He was on his way to work. He called up, explained the situation, and asked his boss to check the BBC website, so that he knew my mate wasn't winding him up. His boss said 'When you get out, turn round and go home'.

 

[Via Bank]

My best mate was stuck for five hours. I asked him how bad it got.
'It was a bit warm, so I took my jacket and tie off.'
That was it.

Fine.

But other people are probably not like him. Other people will have become dehydrated, or hungry (considering the time of day many people won't have eaten yet.) Other people will have needed the toilet (particularly if they were, for instance, pregnant, or with small children, or elderly.) Some other people will almost certainly have suffered from anxiety or panic attacks after being trapped in a confined space for several hours. Given the time of day it is likely there would have been limited seating room.

And if it really does take five hours for NR/SN to safely de-train four train loads of passengers in such a scenario, then the de-training procedures are defective. I genuinely dread to think what a real emergency would be like.

I was on one of the trains involved, I would be positively livid!

 

[EM2]

Fine.

But other people are probably not like him. Other people will have become dehydrated, or hungry (considering the time of day many people won't have eaten yet.) Other people will have needed the toilet (particularly if they were, for instance, pregnant, or with small children, or elderly.) Some other people will almost certainly have suffered from anxiety or panic attacks after being trapped in a confined space for several hours. Given the time of day it is likely there would have been limited seating room.

Maybe. I can't speak for anyone else, or anyone in any other carriage, or any other train, but he said there was basically an air of quiet resignation.

 

[tsr]

I've heard a few more things about this incident. Frankly the disruption remains incredible and it's amazing that lines were reopened so soon and that as many trains were able to run today. 50 coaches are now estimated to have significant shoegear damage - Selhurst Depot is certainly one very busy place this evening. The reaction from drivers and fitters yesterday meant that some of these coaches were able to remain safely in service yesterday and travel at limited speeds for far in excess of what would be the usual practical limits.

I've also been assured that Southern's management response on the ground was somewhat "comprehensive" and that quick and full reaction seems to have mainly been hindered by other parties. Quite a lot of senior staff and crew managers would appear to have been involved all over the South London area and this was complemented by a lot of resources from other agencies. None of this, though, makes any difference to the fact that it does seem there was somebody, somewhere, actively making a decision to hold passengers during major disruption on trains which it was completely impractical to move quickly. I'm really not sure yet how the decisions on this were made, but I can sense there are going to be some internal grillings very soon.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Until there is an accident and the self-same people who makes these comments are the first to want action.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Correct, and if you don't follow company policy then it will be you who will end up in the dock, rather than the Directors, if something goes wrong.

Company policy written by theorists who've never been trapped on a train or quite likely never been in a "situation". Who cannot make decisions or do anything unless they're written down. Those ever popular get-out clause words, "we followed the procedure" covers all their uselessness and lack of common sense. It was just the same when in about 2005 the 16.23 Waterloo Int. to Paris failed between Waterloo and Vauxhall on a hot summer's day. By the time that "they" had followed the procedures it was after 22.00 when the train was finally moved back into Waterloo Int.

 

[ian959]

Company policy written by theorists who've never been trapped on a train or quite likely never been in a "situation". Who cannot make decisions or do anything unless they're written down. Those ever popular get-out clause words, "we followed the procedure" covers all their uselessness and lack of common sense. It was just the same when in about 2005 the 16.23 Waterloo Int. to Paris failed between Waterloo and Vauxhall on a hot summer's day. By the time that "they" had followed the procedures it was after 22.00 when the train was finally moved back into Waterloo Int.

Welcome to the modern world where procedures HAVE to be in writing and approved and whatever else so that peoples arses are covered so that when the OH&S people come looking... etc etc. Its a double edged sword of the world we have created where someone MUST be held to be accountable no matter what. It is NOTHING to do with uselessness or lack of common sense whatsoever.

 

[pompeyfan]

How much would it cost/be practable to carry a couple of hundred bottles of water per unit? After all water has a long BB date. Also (and no I'm not joking) what about a portable toilet, like a little camping pop-up potty? Or something designed for this kind of emergency. Granted they don't happen often, but you can't say they are rare either... Finally, how about a trellece like extending barrier for a couple of doors per unit, on the door facing the safest side? I've got a miniature one preventing little'un getting in to the kitchen, would something similar work?

I appreciate some may find my suggestions ridiculous, but I'd like to think that some could be reasonable?

 

[infobleep]

I've heard a few more things about this incident. Frankly the disruption remains incredible and it's amazing that lines were reopened so soon and that as many trains were able to run today. 50 coaches are now estimated to have significant shoegear damage - Selhurst Depot is certainly one very busy place this evening. The reaction from drivers and fitters yesterday meant that some of these coaches were able to remain safely in service yesterday and travel at limited speeds for far in excess of what would be the usual practical limits.

I've also been assured that Southern's management response on the ground was somewhat "comprehensive" and that quick and full reaction seems to have mainly been hindered by other parties. Quite a lot of senior staff and crew managers would appear to have been involved all over the South London area and this was complemented by a lot of resources from other agencies. None of this, though, makes any difference to the fact that it does seem there was somebody, somewhere, actively making a decision to hold passengers during major disruption on trains which it was completely impractical to move quickly. I'm really not sure yet how the decisions on this were made, but I can sense there are going to be some internal grillings very soon.

I do congratulate the staff for being able to keep some of the trains in service and for the work done to reopen the lines so soon. Do we know how much of the line was damaged?

With regards to the time spent on the train, we know someone from Southern told the BBC news reporter procedures were followed correctly.

Have Southern become part of the Network Rail alliance yet? If not I wonder who will be paying who in delay fines. A report will need to determine whose fault it was first of course.

I do feel if someone followed the procedure correctly, as Southern said they did, and it's not considered good enough, the procedure needs to change. The person shouldn't be made a scapegoat - unless they wrote the procedure of course.

I'm sure it will come out in a report. I just hope it'd a fair report and that it leads to changes if changes are actually what is needed in cases like this.

 

[swt_passenger]

How much would it cost/be practable to carry a couple of hundred bottles of water per unit? After all water has a long BB date. Also (and no I'm not joking) what about a portable toilet, like a little camping pop-up potty? Or something designed for this kind of emergency. Granted they don't happen often, but you can't say they are rare either... Finally, how about a trellece like extending barrier for a couple of doors per unit, on the door facing the safest side? I've got a miniature one preventing little'un getting in to the kitchen, would something similar work?

I appreciate some may find my suggestions ridiculous, but I'd like to think that some could be reasonable?

Bottled water for emergency use is carried on most long distance trains IIRC, I've had it dished out on a delayed Voyager. There are also trains already provided with equipment that allows a door to be guarded and left open for ventilation. (your trellis)

Not sure if the guards are provided on all modern units without opening windows, but they are in service.

I also think that one of the commuter TOCs announced provision of an emergency toilet provision, something to do with plastic bottles, and they were immediately ridiculed by the local media. Was it Southeastern?

 

[gtr driver]

How much would it cost/be practable to carry a couple of hundred bottles of water per unit? After all water has a long BB date. Also (and no I'm not joking) what about a portable toilet, like a little camping pop-up potty? Or something designed for this kind of emergency. Granted they don't happen often, but you can't say they are rare either... Finally, how about a trellece like extending barrier for a couple of doors per unit, on the door facing the safest side? I've got a miniature one preventing little'un getting in to the kitchen, would something similar work?

I appreciate some may find my suggestions ridiculous, but I'd like to think that some could be reasonable?

There isn't much space on the units I'm familiar with for anything else. Certainly not more than a couple of dozen bottles. There are already hot weather barriers for one door but it has to be manned when in use and quite often there is only one railwayman present...

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Welcome to the modern world where procedures HAVE to be in writing and approved and whatever else so that peoples arses are covered so that when the OH&S people come looking... etc etc. Its a double edged sword of the world we have created where someone MUST be held to be accountable no matter what. It is NOTHING to do with uselessness or lack of common sense whatsoever.

I bet this lot were pleased with themselves after following the procedures.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rowning-man-3ft-deep-lake-half-boot-deep.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ds-Hampstead-Heath-pond-hottest-day-year.html

 

[Via Bank]

I also think that one of the commuter TOCs announced provision of an emergency toilet provision, something to do with plastic bottles, and they were immediately ridiculed by the local media. Was it Southeastern?

It might've been the Dutch or the Danish railways, not any British TOC. I think it involved the provision of those "pee bags", with a "she-wee" adaptor for people not already equipped to use them.

Not pleasant, but better than nothing. Really, some kind of emergency provision should be required on all trains. (The "limp home" engine on IEPs is a start…)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I bet this lot were pleased with themselves after following the procedures.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rowning-man-3ft-deep-lake-half-boot-deep.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ds-Hampstead-Heath-pond-hottest-day-year.html

Much like most rail articles that appear in the Daily Mail, both those articles are inaccurate.

 

[Retorus]

Seriously?

Made me laugh. Wow.

 

[Antman]

Fine.

But other people are probably not like him. Other people will have become dehydrated, or hungry (considering the time of day many people won't have eaten yet.) Other people will have needed the toilet (particularly if they were, for instance, pregnant, or with small children, or elderly.) Some other people will almost certainly have suffered from anxiety or panic attacks after being trapped in a confined space for several hours. Given the time of day it is likely there would have been limited seating room.

And if it really does take five hours for NR/SN to safely de-train four train loads of passengers in such a scenario, then the de-training procedures are defective. I genuinely dread to think what a real emergency would be like.

I was on one of the trains involved, I would be positively livid!

I'd be fuming, it's bad enough for people who need to get to work, imagine people who are going to a wedding or a funeral!

I spent about 20 minutes once stuck in a tunnel on a Northern Line tube in the heat and that was bad enough, being stuck for hours doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Middy]

Local paper tweeted this link to this thread so I thought I'd register and post given I was on the 7.02 from EGR (scheduled to arrive VIC at 8.03) which I think (from reading all the reports) could have hit the faulty conductor rail first (just before 8am). We all felt the thud on the line before the train glided to a halt. I was in the 3rd coach from the front - as there were 900 passengers in 12 coaches evacuated through one door (coach 4 I think), people in our coach did not start moving for the evacuation until around 11am.

It was pretty warm and I was sitting by the right hand side window under the east facing sun but personally the lack of air was more an issue for me. Conductor came down to unlock the windows and police boarded soon after to check no one was ill.

Heard later that the 0656 Brighton train was towed back to Wandsworth by diesel train and passengers were still there by 1pm. Police had cordoned off Battersea Rise (where paramedics were waiting) from traffic so some of the EGR folk could walk ahead to CLJ. I got another VIC train from there within 10 mins - empty train and empty VIC (c11.30am) at other end! The conductor on that train apologised that they were 2 hours late.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are newer units (Electrostar and Desiros) any more prone to having the shoes ripped off in situations like what happended then with older units, whose shoes and related assemblies seem more chunky?

 

[carriageline]

Are newer units (Electrostar and Desiros) any more prone to having the shoes ripped off in situations like what happended then with older units, whose shoes and related assemblies seem more chunky?

I'm sure I read somewhere that the shoe beam are easier to snap off by design (fibreglass vice wood on older units) so the driver doesn't have to mess around with mangled shoe gear.

Could be wrong though!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the shoe beam are easier to snap off by design (fibreglass vice wood on older units) so the driver doesn't have to mess around with mangled shoe gear.

Could be wrong though!

The assembly would still be hanging attached by the collector cable though, wouldn't it?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the shoe beam are easier to snap off by design (fibreglass vice wood on older units) so the driver doesn't have to mess around with mangled shoe gear.

Could be wrong though!

I suspect you may be correct. Same principle with modern road signs which are meant to snap rather than bend, causing less damage to the vehicle and it's occupants (remember seeing it demonstrated on Tomorrow's World).

 

[TheNewNo2]

At a guess, as the conductor rail began to shift it may have knocked lumps out of passing trains' shoegear, though perhaps not sufficiently to render the gear completely unserviceable.

Well you lot appear to have all the answers…perhaps you should write to Southern to tell them just how to respond. From experience I can tell you that the first train affected would not necessarily know the shoes were off. Only when a train loses all power will it be known that something major has happened. Then it’s line blocks, trackside inspections, telling the relevant parties, assessing the scope of the situation, agreeing a decision, getting all the relevant staff of several different organisations together, briefing them, getting them on site, blocking all the lines and turning off the power, then marshalling hundreds of people out of trains without a platform into an environment that is not designed for them without slips or trips, then find space for them all somewhere because no platform or concourse is designed to cope with them all arriving at once like that.

There was a similar incident on LU recently - an out of gauge conductor rail ripped all the shoes off one side of the train, but it wasn't immediately noticed as the train was getting power from the other side. Then the rail switched side and lights out.

I suspect you may be correct. Same principle with modern road signs which are meant to snap rather than bend, causing less damage to the vehicle and it's occupants (remember seeing it demonstrated on Tomorrow's World).

Bring back Tomorrow's World!

 

[theageofthetra]

BBC transport correspondent Tom Edwards has just tweeted that NR have confirmed that this incident was caused by a conductor rail being reinstalled out of gauge following overnight engineering works. Sorry unable to post link on a mobile device.

"Network Rail engineers carried out track repairs the night before Thursday's disruption at #Clapham & replaced conductor rail "out of gauge"

 

[DY444]

Which is not the first time that's happened in the same area.

 

[infobleep]

BBC transport correspondent Tom Edwards has just tweeted that NR have confirmed that this incident was caused by a conductor rail being reinstalled out of gauge following overnight engineering works. Sorry unable to post link on a mobile device.

"Network Rail engineers carried out track repairs the night before Thursday's disruption at #Clapham & replaced conductor rail "out of gauge"

Is that an easy mistake to make, assuming installing out of gauge is a mistake. I don't understand it all.

 

[dgl]

Is that an easy mistake to make, assuming installing out of gauge is a mistake. I don't understand it all.

I thought it would be quite difficult due to (I think) mounting holes for the conductor rail being pre drilled into the sleepers, unless the problem was the holes were incorrectly drilled in the first place (assuming sleepers were replaced at the same time work was done on the conductor rail.

 

[Taunton]

Need to know the detail of "out of gauge". Might have been too high rather than laterally wrong.

Having said that, there's a reasonable amount of tolerance all round, remembering that such things were installed with hand tools 100 years ago. But time was when the old gangers on the track in Taunton (although no conductor rails down there) actually knew their job by eye, and could spot things even just a little bit askew, while they were still inside the tolerance. The measuring stick just came into play to confirm. You have to wonder, now that you need a whole walletfull of cards, certificates and what-not to work trackside, how that sort of ability got overlooked along the way.

 

[sarahj]

Well there was a major track fault in the same area the day before, leading to train cancellations and delays. I'm not saying NR botched the repair, however it seems now they are saying they did. (cracked rail IIRC).

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Shades of Kings Cross years ago (post privatisation) when the line was handed back after repairs in the "throat" area and an entire section of rail was missing.

 

[GodAtum]

More signalling problems today. They should get a refund off ebay.

 

[swt_passenger]

Need to know the detail of "out of gauge". Might have been too high rather than laterally wrong.

I think 'plain line' is pretty difficult to get wrong for lateral alignment, especially with the fittings being cast in at manufacture, but there are obvious pitfalls with height, and with the end ramp positions in S&C areas. If a section of con-rail is only slightly too long compared to plan then the train shoes can miss the ramp and hit the side.

In extremis I suppose they could even get a ramp's slope angle wrong?