Staff attitude to PRIV Boxes and Dating them

[calc7]

I think the main point is that some staff take the p**s, the amount of times I have walked into first class to find someone who works for a TOC hundreds of miles away sat there without asking, helping themselves from the trolley and then your a "Jobsworth" for moving them, if there were less p**s takers like that then I would be a lot more lenient, like I said, have the decency to ask and you shall get, just sit there and you shall get a ticket and a lot of my colleagues fell the same way.

What is the expectation with First Class complimentaries?

I have twice now heard Virgin crews on the tannoy when announcing dinner options that "people travelling on industry travel passes should make yourselves aware to us as we pass through the train" - is this because they're not meant to avail themselves of the booze?

 

[GB]

I think the main point is that some staff take the p**s, the amount of times I have walked into first class to find someone who works for a TOC hundreds of miles away sat there without asking, helping themselves from the trolley and then your a "Jobsworth" for moving them, if there were less p**s takers like that then I would be a lot more lenient, like I said, have the decency to ask and you shall get, just sit there and you shall get a ticket and a lot of my colleagues fell the same way.

I completely understand and would say that is completely fair enough, but a lot of the negative comments appear to be that it shouldn't happen at all because it apparently costs the TOC money and I was just wondering if they would feel the same way if hypothetically speaking, they were in a position to receive "a touch" where there would be no impedance on themselves at later time.

 

[grid56126]

There was NEVER a vote for priv to be retained. There was a lot of talk, mostly from people who couldn't see past the next month's pay packet and invariably those who didn't use priv except for work.

Grid

 

[PTF62]

A product and a service 'are' different things.

Consider a joiner who builds a book case for his mate who happens to be an electritian who fits a plug for the plumber, who then mends a tap for the joiner...

So what does the TOC get in return when one of their employees permits someone to travel without paying for a ticket. Umm, nothing.

Your example would work if it was the joiner giving away his own time for free. He isn't. He is skipping off work to build his mate's book case, whilst his employer has paid him to do something else.

 

[34D]

So what does the TOC get in return when one of their employees permits someone to travel without paying for a ticket. Umm, nothing.

Depends what they buy from the buffet

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think the main point is that some staff take the p**s, the amount of times I have walked into first class to find someone who works for a TOC hundreds of miles away sat there without asking, helping themselves from the trolley and then your a "Jobsworth" for moving them, if there were less p**s takers like that then I would be a lot more lenient, like I said, have the decency to ask and you shall get, just sit there and you shall get a ticket and a lot of my colleagues fell the same way.

Here Here, my sentiments entirely, with the only note that from my experience active staff aren't normally too bad, I find retired / spouses / dependants are the worst culprits.

 

[Barn]

I completely understand and would say that is completely fair enough, but a lot of the negative comments appear to be that it shouldn't happen at all because it apparently costs the TOC money

I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand about the cost. If the staff member would have travelled in any event, the clear, direct loss is the loss of that ticket revenue. Talking about empty seats makes no sense - the discount is applied to a seat that would have been occupied in any event.

As to why it grates people, we pay for the railways either through our tax subsidies or through paying fares set high enough so the likes of Virgin/First can return their huge premiums.

Any fare evasion, staff or non-staff, is unfair on the taxpaying, farepaying public. Many of the culprits are the anti-capitalist 'railways are a public service' crowd. Imagine if HMRC employees refused to chase fellow colleagues for their taxes! "But they'd have had to build my local hospital anyway!!"

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What is the expectation with First Class complimentaries?

I have twice now heard Virgin crews on the tannoy when announcing dinner options that "people travelling on industry travel passes should make yourselves aware to us as we pass through the train" - is this because they're not meant to avail themselves of the booze?

Pass or box holders are not entitled to anything bar tea / coffee or non alcaholic drinks for free. (A little grating though to announce it through the whole train)

On ECML you can purchase a staff entitlement for £10 flat fare - to be fair , there were people who abused the WC entitlement by taking things like a full breakfast which was not their right !

 

[island]

What is the expectation with First Class complimentaries?

I have twice now heard Virgin crews on the tannoy when announcing dinner options that "people travelling on industry travel passes should make yourselves aware to us as we pass through the train" - is this because they're not meant to avail themselves of the booze?

There is a list somewhere by TOC of what staff are and aren't supposed to take.

 

[PTF62]

So what does the TOC get in return when one of their employees permits someone to travel without paying for a ticket. Umm, nothing.

Depends what they buy from the buffet

So provided you buy something from the buffet anybody can travel for free. London to Edinburgh for the price of a Mars bar. Bargain.

I am not sure the TOC's accountants would agree though, once all their customers start doing it.

 

[bb21]

So provided you buy something from the buffet anybody can travel for free. London to Edinburgh for the price of a Mars bar. Bargain.

I think that was intended as a tongue-in-cheek comment.

 

[Urban Gateline]

So what does the TOC get in return when one of their employees permits someone to travel without paying for a ticket. Umm, nothing.

In return, they get the willingness to help of an off duty Railway employee, I follow AnorthernGuard's sentiments that all TOC's are part of one team and help each other out when they can...

 

[northwichcat]

Kids maybe but for staff who still work in the industry or are retired I see no problem with. They've done their time and paid their dues and I respect that enough to let them travel for nowt.

Most companies give their staff benefits and I see this as no different really with the added bonus of rail staff looking out for another and giving them a bit extra too by not filling it in.

So are you implying it's OK for staff to fiddle a system because of the service they've put in to the railways?

As ANorthernGuard said if you don't need to use one then don't. However, if you're not entitled to travel for free without one filled in then you're a fare evader. If you work for Sainsburys and get money off your shopping as a staff incentive it doesn't mean you can short change Tescos if you do your shopping there because of your service to supermarkets.

 

[WCMLaddict]

I haven't heard in a while the trade unions postulating for free unlimited travel for all staff and dependants. It must have slipped a bit down the list of priorities.

I wish the staff played by the rules that are there and just as guards have been given the use of discretion when it comes to normal passengers and their tickets, they should be allowed to use their discretion when it comes to other members of staff. I think the attitude shown here by most posters is healthy (if you ask you get, if you don’t I stick to the rules). What worry me a bit is the signs that dependants and spouses tend to abuse the rules.

The thing about the traveling in First Class is a bit different as it is a premium service (of course I’m talking here about companies that provide complimentary service on board and not only seats).
Apparently ATOC does not permit their executives to use First Class for business travel.

 

[PTF62]

In return, they get the willingness to help of an off duty Railway employee

I understand the "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" benefits for the employees to help each other dodge the fare that should be paid.

But what benefit does the company that has employed someone to check / collect fares gain, when that employee decides themselves to let particular people travel free.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't work in the rail industry, so apologies if this is a silly question:

If a guard lets a rail employee travel for free without filling in their boxes or purchasing a ticket, what happens if there is a change of train crew or the destination station has a gateline or RPI block. The passenger has no ticket, so do the subsequent staff encountered just take their word for it that they were told they could travel for free? This type of defence is rarely believed for ordinary passengers. Does anyone know of anyone who has been Penalty Fare'd or MG11'd in this situation?

My personal opinion is that if someone was going to make a journey anyway, rail staff or not, then them not buying a ticket when they should is lost revenue to the TOC. Given the amount of taxpayer subsidy of the rail network, I don't personally agree with discretionary free leisure rides (except where officially allowed as per employment contracts).

 

[thedbdiboy]

Pass or box holders are not entitled to anything bar tea / coffee or non alcaholic drinks for free. (A little grating though to announce it through the whole train)

On ECML you can purchase a staff entitlement for £10 flat fare - to be fair , there were people who abused the WC entitlement by taking things like a full breakfast which was not their right !

The ECML staff catering voucher is actually £5 now. The Rail Staff Travel website sets out what you can and cannot make use of if you are fortunate enough to have free 1st class travel. Generally tea/coffee is ok but food and alcohol isn't.

BTW as someone who was around at the time, the rank and file had absolutely no say as to what privs were offered after privatisation. They were allowed to keep their entitlements but there was no push to 'pull up the drawbridge' for others. The real issue was that in the privatised world there was clearly a cost to providing general facilities and by withdrawing them for new entrants, it was possible to cap the costs for franchises going forwards, so there was no desire by government to maintain it.

 

[PTF62]

if someone was going to make a journey anyway, rail staff or not, then them not buying a ticket when they should is lost revenue to the TOC.

Precisely.

It is not just the fact that rail employees have decided as group to deprive their employer's of income, but these are the same employees who's job is specifically to stop people from travelling without paying. And then to compound matters, try to argue that they have done nothing wrong.

 

[northwichcat]

It is not just the fact that rail employees have decided as group to deprive their employer's of income, but these are the same employees who's job is specifically to stop people from travelling without paying. And then to compound matters, try to argue that they have done nothing wrong.

I wonder what the management of the various TOCs will make of this thread (I imagine some will see it.) One reaction could well be to use more third party revenue staff such as G4S who won't let their fellow rail staff off without a valid ticket.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Nothing, management know about it, have always known about it and won't change things or put pressure on staff, its a cheap easy way to keep up morale and to perfectly fair, they won't really give a s**t what a few enthusiasts think just like they won't give a s**t what a few members of staff think. Just remember alot of these managers do exactly the same as the majority of traincrew. anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly deluded. and a side note G4S can do sweet FA about it, if I decide to let someone travel for free it is up to me, they have no say whatsoever.

 

[PTF62]

One reaction could well be to use more third party revenue staff such as G4S who won't let their fellow rail staff off without a valid ticket.

But the problem would be what would they do with employee fare dodgers they find?

What amuses me, is that in any other industry a situation where an employee deliberately deprived their employer of money that should have been paid, would be treated as committing a serious disciplinary offence. But on the railway, letting your mates travel for free...

 

[northwichcat]

Nothing, management know about it, have always known about it and won't change things or put pressure on staff, its a cheap easy way to keep up morale and to perfectly fair

Perfectly fair? A lot of Northern staff were travelling one day on a busy TPE service taking up the aisles seats on both sides of the aisle and being awkward when anyone pointed to the free window seats. Now they weren't being model passengers anyway so if they were travelling for free when they shouldn't have been that would have made it even worse that they were occupying seats while other people had to stand.

and a side note G4S can do sweet FA about it, if I decide to let someone travel for free it is up to me, they have no say whatsoever.

So if you're working the Hazel Grove-Preston service and at Manchester Piccadilly someone says they are rail staff and the guard said they can travel for free, G4S will just let them through without any way of checking with you? God they really are useless then. :roll:

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Perfectly fair? A lot of Northern staff were travelling one day on a busy TPE service taking up the aisles seats on both sides of the aisle and being awkward when anyone pointed to the free window seats. Now they weren't being model passengers anyway so if they were travelling for free when they shouldn't have been that would have made it even worse that they were occupying seats while other people had to stand.



So if you're working the Hazel Grove-Preston service and at Manchester Piccadilly someone says they are rail staff and the guard said they can travel for free, G4S will just let them through without any way of checking with you? God they really are useless then. :roll:

just a couple of points

If a train is full I will NEVER take up a seat while a paying passenger is standing

And yes G4S are absolutely useless (which we knew anyway lol) all they would do is show their priv and they will be let through, they can't just say they are staff, they do have to prove it lol, anyway the way they have moved the barriers to the most inconvienient places possible they have totally lost any form of control
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the problem would be what would they do with employee fare dodgers they find?

What amuses me, is that in any other industry a situation where an employee deliberately deprived their employer of money that should have been paid, would be treated as committing a serious disciplinary offence. But on the railway, letting your mates travel for free...

if an employee has been given a free ride by the guard they are NOT a fare dodger I do not let my mates travel free, I let my colleagues travel free which usually they are entitled to anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

But the problem would be what would they do with employee fare dodgers they find?

What amuses me, is that in any other industry a situation where an employee deliberately deprived their employer of money that should have been paid, would be treated as committing a serious disciplinary offence. But on the railway, letting your mates travel for free...

That's exactly my thoughts. Would, for instance, Northern want to prosecute an EMT employee?

And also where does this 'letting people off' end? I understand ATW employees get free bus travel with Arriva, so if Arriva lose the franchise to another company but maintain the bus routes will the Arriva bus drivers let the train staff off because they used to work for Arriva?

And imagine if Virgin Atlantic had launched internal flights a year earlier and offered VT staff free internal flights, would First West Coast staff finish up being unofficially allowed for fly for free?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If a train is full I will NEVER take up a seat while a paying passenger is standing

I wasn't trying to imply that all train staff would do that, just pointing out that some take the p*ss if they aren't paying and aren't technically allowed to travel for free on that service.

Incidentally I don't have a problem with rail staff being allowed to travel for free or reduced rate under the terms of their contract.

 

[GadgetMan]

Most of us also allow Police Officers to travel for free on production of a Warrant Card. This could also be seen as depriving the Railway of revenue. should this also be stopped?

However when this off duty Police Officer then assists the guard in detraining a passenger and avoiding a lengthy delay to that train and those behind it, the amount of money and inconvenience saved in delays more than makes up for the free ride.

Off duty Railway Staff are also very useful when assistance is required, the small amount of revenue lost more than pays for itself when those members of staff are required to assist traincrew in various situations, and to this date not a single member of off duty staff has refused to assist me when I've asked (as long as they are in a fit state). And im very grateful for that as other than the Driver I'm usually the only other member of staff on my train.

As mentioned by other members of Staff. Our 'Employers' are well aware of what goes on and they do not have a problem with it.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Most of us also allow Police Officers to travel for free on production of a Warrant Card. This could also be seen as depriving the Railway of revenue. should this also be stopped?

However when this off duty Police Officer then assists the guard in detraining a passenger and avoiding a lengthy delay to that train and those behind it, the amount of money and inconvenience saved in delays more than makes up for the free ride.

Off duty Railway Staff are also very useful when assistance is required, the small amount of revenue lost more than pays for itself when those members of staff are required to assist traincrew in various situations, and to this date not a single member of off duty staff has refused to assist me when I've asked (as long as they are in a fit state). And im very grateful for that as other than the Driver I'm usually the only other member of staff on my train.

As mentioned by other members of Staff. Our 'Employers' are well aware of what goes on and they do not have a problem with it.

Exactly and another point is at least Northern (probably a few more) are actively trying to get better staff travel facilities, from what I can gather it is only a few TOC's who are arguing about it (don't know who but thats what we have been told)

 

[PTF62]

if an employee has been given a free ride by the guard they are NOT a fare dodger I do not let my mates travel free, I let my colleagues travel free which usually they are entitled to anyway.

Of course they are fare dodgers. It is just that you have turned a blind eye to it and are not doing what your employer wants you to do.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Of course they are fare dodgers. It is just that you have turned a blind eye to it and are not doing what your employer wants you to do.

NO! absolutely not, as an AUTHORISED PERSON of the railway I have given that person permission to travel on my train, A Fare dodger is someone who with no permission travels fraudulently

BIG difference

PTF62 you really need to sort your facts out.

 

[GadgetMan]

Of course they are fare dodgers. It is just that you have turned a blind eye to it and are not doing what your employer wants you to do.

We also often use our discretion and allow members of the public to travel on our trains with invalid tickets because they have either got on the wrong train, wrong TOC, missed their original Advance booked train due to a non-railway fault, excess to a non railcard price instead of full priced Standard fare etc.

The above all constitutes to 'lost' revenue.

Do you have a problem with that too?

 

[maniacmartin]

We also often use our discretion and allow members of the public to travel on our trains with invalid tickets because they have either got on the wrong train, wrong TOC, missed their original Advance booked train due to a non-railway fault, excess to a non railcard price instead of full priced Standard fare etc.

The above all constitutes to 'lost' revenue.

Do you have a problem with that too?

Those all sound like they could be genuine mistakes. At least the passenger bought a ticket in those cases!

I'm a bit wary of discretion, as if overused it can end up with one rule for one passenger and a different rule for another. As an example, I witnessed an RPI let off a middle-aged woman who had a ticket that was clearly invalid, and couldn't help thinking that had it been a young male with a hoodie on the same train with the same ticket, that it would have been more likely to be prosecuted.