This morning's 0759 Welwyn North to Kings Cross

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BW

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Anyone know what happened to it? It just vanished from the departures board after a train went past - presumably that train was meant to stop but didn't.

Also, why aren't there any announcements about where the train got to?
 
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VTPreston_Tez

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Oh right, I had a feeling it'd be 2 platforms after the circumstances. I just wanted to check.
Maybe it just arrived and left early, or very late? There's also the chance it had to go semi-fast as it was late?
 

OxtedL

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Sigh...
Oh right, I had a feeling it'd be 2 platforms after the circumstances. I just wanted to check.
There are many easy ways to check this sort of thing. You could use Google Maps, for instance. Or check out Wikipedia. Or the National Rail Enquiries website, where they have station plans and handy photographs. You could even go there and have a look if you had lots of time on your hands.
Maybe it just arrived and left early, or very late?
We've already been kindly informed that it passed the station 2 minutes late. Unless you have information to the contrary, or have experience of a systematic failure in one of the likely sources of the information posted here, this kind of contradictory speculation can easily be accidentally taken as a nuisance, and that would be unfortunate.

It's right there in post 2.
There's also the chance it had to go semi-fast as it was late?
That's a possibility, but I would think unlikely for a train that was only 2 minutes late.

In conclusion, thank you for your efforts here, but we are no closer to establishing an explanation for the observations in the original post.
 

VTPreston_Tez

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Sigh...

There are many easy ways to check this sort of thing. You could use Google Maps, for instance. Or check out Wikipedia. Or the National Rail Enquiries website, where they have station plans and handy photographs. You could even go there and have a look if you had lots of time on your hands.
We've already been kindly informed that it passed the station 2 minutes late. Unless you have information to the contrary, or have experience of a systematic failure in one of the likely sources of the information posted here, this kind of contradictory speculation can easily be accidentally taken as a nuisance, and that would be unfortunate.

It's right there in post 2.

That's a possibility, but I would think unlikely for a train that was only 2 minutes late.

In conclusion, thank you for your efforts here, but we are no closer to establishing an explanation for the observations in the original post.
Thanks for what you've said, there should always be a backup solution incase the original could be a lie. That's where I came from.
Thanks for the comments, it's funny I'm learning this literally 24 hours before I start moderation (well, the time it takes Yorkie to browse his PMs)
Well hang on, there's a bit more evidence than I thought? Maybe the original was cancelled and a ghost semi-fast called in? That's my other backup.
 

OxtedL

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Thanks for what you've said, there should always be a backup solution incase the original could be a lie. That's where I came from.
I'm sorry? Does this have meaning? :|

Well hang on, there's a bit more evidence than I thought? Maybe the original was cancelled and a ghost semi-fast called in? That's my other backup.
The train doesn't appear to have at any point been more than 2 minutes late, so this would be very strange. If it was run as Empty rather than in service (for whatever reason), for instance, it would be very strange for there not to be announcements to this effect. This is possibly what the OP is trying to establish.

I think it would be a good idea not to make any more speculative suggestions and hope that a member of railway staff is in a position to help us out with what might have happened in real life.
 

Class377/5

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Anyone know what happened to it? It just vanished from the departures board after a train went past - presumably that train was meant to stop but didn't.

Also, why aren't there any announcements about where the train got to?
Which departure board are you referring to?

The non platform ones take a train off the screens 2mins before they're due to arrive in platform at all FCC stations. This is to avoid passengers rushing for a train and having an accident.

If it was the platform screen then it could be a different issue but does sound like its the summary/non platform screens that you mention.
 

tsr

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I'm sorry? Does this have meaning? :|
The way I am reading it, I think VTPreston_Tez means that the system announcing departure details on passenger/customer information systems should have a backup to ensure that it cannot display faulty information - for example, a cancellation where a train is running on time, or vice versa. Indeed, systems should always have an appropriate level of backup - so that they can output what is needed even when a fault occurs - but I think what is meant is that the system should be periodically checked to ensure the correct information is displayed. I can't think of a reason that any required human input should have been lacking here, and I can't honestly say that it wasn't provided, since I wasn't there.

The train doesn't appear to have at any point been more than 2 minutes late, so this would be very strange. If it was run as Empty rather than in service (for whatever reason), for instance, it would be very strange for there not to be announcements to this effect. This is possibly what the OP is trying to establish.
I have seen trains run through scheduled stops when they are no more than 4 minutes late, but this would be unusual, and I agree that 2 minutes does not seem long enough for scheduled stops to be missed. Sometimes, a service may delay another behind it if it does not gain time, and if the later service could be greatly inconvenienced by any delays or start a build-up of delays, a service may run fast through maybe one or two stops to allow all feasible time to be gained. Obviously, having few or no lines available for overtaking may make service delays more problematic.
 

OxtedL

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Reading his post again, he refers to the concept of a "backup" twice. It seems to me from these two references that a "backup" is merely considered by the poster to be possibility in the imagination, and not in the conventional sense of a redundancy in a system, particularly an information system. Regardless, it is still unclear what was meant by "original" and "lie".

A glance at Welwyn North's departures suggests that trains regularly stop there up to 4 minutes late all day. While it was indeed rush hour, the idea that a 2 minute delay resulted in a deliberate decision not to stop at this FCC station really doesn't have any substance in my view.

The possibility that the OP may have somehow not seen the train seems the most likely explanation so far. As far as I can see, the main other possibility is a driver error that somehow no-one has picked up on yet, which also seems very unlikely.
 

BW

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Which departure board are you referring to?
It was displayed on both the ticket hall board and the platform board when I arrived at the station, at about 0757. At that point it was already showing as being 2 minutes late, which someone else has noted is not an uncommon occurence for that particular train.

It remained on the platform departure board (I didn't see the other board again) until after the train that passed the station, at which point it was no longer there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The possibility that the OP may have somehow not seen the train seems the most likely explanation so far
Definitely not that, I'm afraid. There was a whole platform full of confused and annoyed passengers who didn't see the train stop for them, nor receive any information about why it didn't stop.
 

philjo

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That train has an odd calling pattern. It starts at Royston, calls all stations to Hitchin then fast to Welwyn North & Kings Cross only. I was on it once when we entered the Welwyn tunnels at speed before braking sharply in the 2nd tunnel for the Welwyn north stop.
 

33056

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Firstly, assuming there was no SPAD, the driver will be interviewed by a manager as soon as possible after the incident and lots of paperwork filled in. After that it varies and the action taken can depend on many different factors which could culminate in the driver being taken off duty and tested for drugs / alcohol.
 

BW

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Shows on TRUST as "Fail to Stop" at Welwyn North yesterday
Thanks.

Out of interest, when does the driver report that he's missed the stop? As soon as it happens, or does he wait until he reaches the end of the journey?

I'm curious because of the lack of information from FCC when it happened. A short "Sorry, the train failed to stop, please catch the next one" would have eliminated a lot of the confusion on the platform.
 

OxtedL

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On tube lines, trains stop at every station. When a station is closed, it's usually made obvious - Cannon Street for instance has a big sign that swings out. It's presumably much harder to miss a stop.

It's good to see a sensible answer has arisen now. :) Sorry for doubting the OP.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would strongly recommend to VTPreston_Tez a study of Chapter 7 of the "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus" by Ludwig Wittgenstein.

All of it.
:lol:
 

33056

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Out of interest, when does the driver report that he's missed the stop? As soon as it happens, or does he wait until he reaches the end of the journey?
I'm not a driver so can't really answer that one though would guess that it is better to admit it sooner rather than later but preferably when at a stand.

I'm curious because of the lack of information from FCC when it happened. A short "Sorry, the train failed to stop, please catch the next one" would have eliminated a lot of the confusion on the platform.
Agree that something should have been said, I'm sure that some placatory waffle would be more welcome than silence.

presumably automatic trains like the central line never have that problem?
Of course not, the problem would also be much less likely to arise on a line where all trains stop at all stations.
 

D1009

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Thanks.

Out of interest, when does the driver report that he's missed the stop? As soon as it happens, or does he wait until he reaches the end of the journey?
That probably depends on at what point the driver was made aware he'd missed the stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm curious because of the lack of information from FCC when it happened. A short "Sorry, the train failed to stop, please catch the next one" would have eliminated a lot of the confusion on the platform.
I'm not familiar with Welwyn North station, though have passed throiugh it at speed on many occasions. I am guessing that the only staff there are in the booking office selling tickets, so would not be aware what was going on on the platform. It's certainly not unusual for 365s to pass through the station, so it probably took some time for the staff to establish what had happened, and by the time they did, the passengers would have gone on the next train anyway. Drivers missing stops is quite a rare occurrence.
 
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455driver

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Out of interest, when does the driver report that he's missed the stop? As soon as it happens, or does he wait until he reaches the end of the journey?
When the driver looks at the running card and sees the station on there or when he gets to the end of the journey and there is a manager stood there looking very unhappy.


I'm curious because of the lack of information from FCC when it happened. A short "Sorry, the train failed to stop, please catch the next one" would have eliminated a lot of the confusion on the platform.
Its an automatic system that works off track circuits, it isnt routinely watched over, do you know how many trains are running on the network at any given time and how many people it would take to watch it.

Look on the bright side, by missing Welwyn North out it should have reached its terminating point on time! :D
 

tsr

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On tube lines, trains stop at every station.
I'm afraid that isn't 100% correct. Metropolitan Line services can be semi-fast and have different calling patterns at peak and off-peak times. In addition, some parts of the Central Line shut down earlier than parts, so trains will not call at every station. That said, trains may not pass every station at these times, either.
 

tsr

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I thought they scrapped all fast off-peak Met line trains in December?
I was referring to the Metropolitan line trains in general. Some stop at all stations, but some definitely don't. I am not entirely sure about off-peak fast services, but I believe there are a few to Amersham and Chesham, here and there! I was replying to this comment:

On tube lines, trains stop at every station.
As you can see, this is a bit of an over-simplification, and I was merely trying to point out that not every Metropolitan Line train stops at every Metropolitan Line station!

I've seen a few running in recent weeks in the middle of the day, presumably to sort out earlier out of course delays?
So have I. I believe there might be a few scheduled ones. However, I usually use the Metropolitan Line between Great Portland Street and Farringdon, and I don't pay too much attention to calling patterns on this part of the network, so I can't be sure.
 

D1009

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I was referring to the Metropolitan line trains in general. Some stop at all stations, but some definitely don't. I am not entirely sure about off-peak fast services, but I believe there are a few to Amersham and Chesham, here and there! I was replying to this comment:



As you can see, this is a bit of an over-simplification, and I was merely trying to point out that not every Metropolitan Line train stops at every Metropolitan Line station!



So have I. I believe there might be a few scheduled ones. However, I usually use the Metropolitan Line between Great Portland Street and Farringdon, and I don't pay too much attention to calling patterns on this part of the network, so I can't be sure.
PEDANT ALERT

Is the Metroplitan a tube line?
 
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