Virgin Qualified Train Drivers

[notadriver]

And given that even internal employees haven't been able to apply for drivers jobs for the last 8 years, it would destroy morale in the company if these jobs went external. Theres over 3000 staff at VT - so you can bet on the applications being in the multiples of hundreds for 6 jobs, so they'll have plenty of candidates to choose from.

Maybe not everyone at VT wants to be a driver - train driving is a very responsible job which requires high concentration levels. Maybe those that are might not be able to meet the criteria needed. A manager once told me he would be very worried taking on someone under 25 years of age.

 

[plastictaffy]

Wasn't gonna jump into this argument, but I keep reading it, so I thought I'd put my tuppence worth in.
People say that drivers have no skills. Load of rubbish. The way trains have onboard TMS systems now, drivers need to have at least a basic knowledge of computers.
They also need to know exactly where they are at all times - including in the dark. I recently rode in the driving cab at night - quite scary, you need to have complete faith in the signals and the instruments.
Drivers - in fact anyone in a safety critical role on the railway - need to have excellent communication skills, both face to face and over the phone - especially when dealing with a certain signalbox I know of, where english appears to be a second language!!
They also have to concentrate for long periods of time - ready to react at half a seconds' notice when something untoward happens.
Drivers are also frequently expected to refresh their route knowledge, surely that demonstrates an ability to learn new skills, especially if a route has had new signals, points, platforms etc etc recently.
They are also on their own for loooooong periods of time - this is self-supervision, is it not??

So where have we got to so far??
Good communication skills - sadly lacking in some of the posts made by people on this forum!!
Ability to learn new things
Ability to spend long periods on their own, so must like their own company!!
Ability to concentrate for long periods of time - even if they're tired, going through a messy divorce, fighting for access to their children, generally going through the mill.
At least a basic knowledge of computer systems.
It is of course, a safety critical job, so they must be happy following the many, many rules and regs. A train driver's Rule Book is at least three inches thick!!
The list goes on...............

 

[bmc1604]

Yes, one point stated in the advert;



Sorry, which advert? Is it the one on the Virgin intranet that no one can see unless your employed by them hence my original question?!

 

[Sammy h]

Maybe not everyone at VT wants to be a driver - train driving is a very responsible job which requires high concentration levels. Maybe those that are might not be able to meet the criteria needed. A manager once told me he would be very worried taking on someone under 25 years of age.

Hope it wasn't a Virgin manager. I am 21 and I will be applying for the role. I have already had two driver interviews and passed the tests, so hopefully not everyone sees it that way.

Don't think I have a chance personally, but you have to be in it to win it.

 

[notadriver]

He wasn't a VT manager but his advice during interview was to stand out from the rest.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry, which advert? Is it the one on the Virgin intranet that no one can see unless your employed by them hence my original question?!

Yup, since the position is only open to existing Virgin Trains employees.

Maybe not everyone at VT wants to be a driver - train driving is a very responsible job which requires high concentration levels. Maybe those that are might not be able to meet the criteria needed. A manager once told me he would be very worried taking on someone under 25 years of age.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you on that point, and there are a fair few staff members who woudn't be medically fit for it, or of a suitable age. As regards to the other criteria, it's being done through multiple stages to whittle people down - I don't have the advert to hand, but I think you have to survive two other stages before you even get to the Bourdon tests. Theres about 5 stages altogether.

 

[A-driver]

Yup, since the position is only open to existing Virgin Trains employees.



Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you on that point, and there are a fair few staff members who woudn't be medically fit for it, or of a suitable age. As regards to the other criteria, it's being done through multiple stages to whittle people down - I don't have the advert to hand, but I think you have to survive two other stages before you even get to the Bourdon tests. Theres about 5 stages altogether.

At a guess (going by what other companies often do) the first bit would be that you would need your current manager to recommend you before you could apply.

 

[craigybagel]

At a guess (going by what other companies often do) the first bit would be that you would need your current manager to recommend you before you could apply.

Weirdly, I haven't seen any mention of that, although you can bet it will come in at some point alright. The first bit is the application form itself, I think they're planning on knocking some people off after that. Even for internal positions, Virgin's application forms are pretty long, with lots of "Name a time when you did x" questions.

 

[Class2ldn]

Maybe not everyone at VT wants to be a driver - train driving is a very responsible job which requires high concentration levels. Maybe those that are might not be able to meet the criteria needed. A manager once told me he would be very worried taking on someone under 25 years of age.

One of our DI's is only 25 lol

 

[E&W Lucas]

And given that even internal employees haven't been able to apply for drivers jobs for the last 8 years, it would destroy morale in the company if these jobs went external. Theres over 3000 staff at VT - so you can bet on the applications being in the multiples of hundreds for 6 jobs, so they'll have plenty of candidates to choose from.

I don't see why it would destroy morale. Virgin, EC, etc have recruited external trainees before. It is a recruitment process for a safety critical job. You want the best possible candidates employed. The trouble is, it gets viewed as something of a lottery win, by some internals.

I dislike the idea of "internal only" recruitment. Smacks of the Closed Shop. Anyone should be able to apply for any job. You want the best people, especially for this type of work.

 

[Beveridges]

Maybe not everyone at VT wants to be a driver - train driving is a very responsible job which requires high concentration levels. Maybe those that are might not be able to meet the criteria needed. A manager once told me he would be very worried taking on someone under 25 years of age.

I really can believe that not everyone in VT wants to be a Driver.

In my TOC, I'd say less than about 5% of the Station Staff & Guards are stuck in those roles yet want to become a Driver one day. I'd say its an even lower percentage for Maintenance Depot staff.

I really wouldn't be suprised if it was the same case in Virgin.

 

[craigybagel]

I don't see why it would destroy morale. Virgin, EC, etc have recruited external trainees before. It is a recruitment process for a safety critical job. You want the best possible candidates employed. The trouble is, it gets viewed as something of a lottery win, by some internals.

I dislike the idea of "internal only" recruitment. Smacks of the Closed Shop. Anyone should be able to apply for any job. You want the best people, especially for this type of work.

You do make some good points, and I have to say, as an employee of VT myself I will admit I am somewhat biased! I would suggest though that surely when you are spending so much money to train someone, it would be better to take someone who you already know a lot about (in terms of reliability/punctuality and so on), and who has already proved that they can cope with the demands that railway shifts impose (which,as all frontline railstaff know, isn't something that everyone can cope with), then to take someone off the street who they don't know about? I'm sure there are many candidates out there who would make fantastic drivers, but there will be enough within the company alone to make that gamble unneccesary.

Bear in mind also, that even if Beveridges figures of 5% were accurate for VT (which I don't believe to be the case), thats still ~170 candidates for 6 positions. Surely thats enough to be getting on with without opening it to externals?

 

[Beveridges]

Chances are that the Internals within VT that were interested in going driving have already done so via another TOC.

It's quite rare on the railway to find someone stuck in a role that they don't want to be in despite attempts at getting something else. I can name the amount of such people I know on one hand, and they're all Cleaners and Gateline staff.

If Northern advertised for drivers internally-only at one of the city locations they're lucky if they get 20 applying and theres 4600 staff in this company. There can be anything from 1 to 10+ vacancies to fill.
The same goes with most Internal vacancies. Most people on the railway are already where they want to be. There aren't that many applying.
The minute something goes external, thousands of applications come in.

Not much different with VT?

 

[Legzr1]

I would suggest though that surely when you are spending so much money to train someone, it would be better to take someone who you already know a lot about (in terms of reliability/punctuality and so on), and who has already proved that they can cope with the demands that railway shifts impose (which,as all frontline railstaff know, isn't something that everyone can cope with), then to take someone off the street who they don't know about? I'm sure there are many candidates out there who would make fantastic drivers, but there will be enough within the company alone to make that gamble unneccesary.

Totally agree with you and it makes perfect sense (and has done for years).

Ignore the calls of 'closed shop' and other nonsense - these comments normally come from people who have stepped straight into the drivers role from 'outside' the industry.

I'd expect that any manager worth their salt would (when faced with equally 'capable' prospective employees) choose the candidate they know well and know can do the shifts.

Bear in mind also, that even if Beveridges figures of 5% were accurate for VT (which I don't believe to be the case), thats still ~170 candidates for 6 positions. Surely thats enough to be getting on with without opening it to externals?

Imaginary percentages 'calculated' on the back of a packet of fags should be treated with disdain - they're meaningless at best and just confuse the issue.

I can believe that a greater percentage of VT employees want to be a VT driver compared to those working at Northern in the same situation.

It explains why at locations where Northern also operate next to 'other' TOC's and FOC's there are mass applications from qualified Northern drivers for any vacancies at the other operators.

 

[E&W Lucas]

You do make some good points, and I have to say, as an employee of VT myself I will admit I am somewhat biased! I would suggest though that surely when you are spending so much money to train someone, it would be better to take someone who you already know a lot about (in terms of reliability/punctuality and so on), and who has already proved that they can cope with the demands that railway shifts impose (which,as all frontline railstaff know, isn't something that everyone can cope with), then to take someone off the street who they don't know about? I'm sure there are many candidates out there who would make fantastic drivers, but there will be enough within the company alone to make that gamble unneccesary.

Bear in mind also, that even if Beveridges figures of 5% were accurate for VT (which I don't believe to be the case), thats still ~170 candidates for 6 positions. Surely thats enough to be getting on with without opening it to externals?

There's so much more to it than punctuality, etc. though, and I've never worked anywhere where lateness has been tollerated, tbh. There is a massive jump in responsibility and expectation, especially in terms of professionalism, between drivers, and many other grades. You might match that experience of responsibility more easily, from the outside world.

Historically, footplate always was a separate career to the rest of the railway; that only changed for a short period from the late 1980s, when they abolished second men, and introduced the "trainman" concept, ie guard first, then driver. The Driver 2000 system, was designed to bring people into the industry, directly as drivers.

As for only a few going for an internal trainee job, leading to a salary of approx £60k, no prior experience required...... :roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

[Silv1983]

Chances are that the Internals within VT that were interested in going driving have already done so via another TOC.

If Northern advertised for drivers internally-only at one of the city locations they're lucky if they get 20 applying and theres 4600 staff in this company. There can be anything from 1 to 10+ vacancies to fill.
Not much different with VT?

IF this is true - and I don't know what your sources are - but then this is usually because the adverts are ripped down after 15 minutes of going up by the same unsuccessful applicants every time to reduce the competition or just through spite.
If there was a computer room or IT intranet system at Northern where internal jobs were advertised hundreds would bang an application in. That is an opinion based on speaking to douzens of guards and dispatchers who regularly talk about going for the driver grade - some for the money alone - which ties in your theory that people are already where they want to be.

 

[TDK]

IF this is true - and I don't know what your sources are - but then this is usually because the adverts are ripped down after 15 minutes of going up by the same unsuccessful applicants every time to reduce the competition or just through spite.
If there was a computer room or IT intranet system at Northern where internal jobs were advertised hundreds would bang an application in. That is an opinion based on speaking to douzens of guards and dispatchers who regularly talk about going for the driver grade - some for the money alone - which ties in your theory that people are already where they want to be.

I am surprised at that as with th companies I have worked for the ads always went into a locked class covered notice case

 

[Silv1983]

I am surprised at that as with th companies I have worked for the ads always went into a locked class covered notice case

Sadly, at my depot - they're pinned up somewhere or word of mouth alone is the required knowledge to go and then ask for a printout of the required forms. Very shoddy really.

 

[craigybagel]

Chances are that the Internals within VT that were interested in going driving have already done so via another TOC.

It's quite rare on the railway to find someone stuck in a role that they don't want to be in despite attempts at getting something else. I can name the amount of such people I know on one hand, and they're all Cleaners and Gateline staff.

People may be happy in there jobs, but if you have a chance for progression, why not go for it? The money alone would persuade some people of a career move. And given that there of hundreds of staff at VT just at CSA level, ie an entry level position, surely some of them want progression?

There's so much more to it than punctuality, etc. though, and I've never worked anywhere where lateness has been tollerated, tbh. There is a massive jump in responsibility and expectation, especially in terms of professionalism, between drivers, and many other grades. You might match that experience of responsibility more easily, from the outside world.

Whilst that is true, with their internal candidates they already have a pretty good idea of how responsible and professional they are. It's a bit harder with the externals.

As for only a few going for an internal trainee job, leading to a salary of approx £60k, no prior experience required...... :roll::roll::roll::roll:

It would be great if it was true though!

IF this is true - and I don't know what your sources are - but then this is usually because the adverts are ripped down after 15 minutes of going up by the same unsuccessful applicants every time to reduce the competition or just through spite.
If there was a computer room or IT intranet system at Northern where internal jobs were advertised hundreds would bang an application in. That is an opinion based on speaking to douzens of guards and dispatchers who regularly talk about going for the driver grade - some for the money alone - which ties in your theory that people are already where they want to be.

As mentioned before VT's internal jobs are only displayed on our internal internet, which is a pretty safe way around that problem!

 

[craigybagel]

Just an update for those who are curious. Results have been sent out today from the first set of tests (the online application form, which included 12 "What would you do" situational questions). Those who were succesful at this stage are now getting screened for their attendance and safety record. Those who pass that (we should find out next week) will go on to stage 3, which if remember correctly is paper based tests (ie bourdon dots).

No word yet on how many applicants there were, rumours I've heard have put it anywhere between the low hundreds to a thousand. One thing I do know is there has been interest all across the operational side of the company at least, with catering staff, station staff and TM's all applying.

 

[Aviator88]

Bit off topic here, but returning to an earlier part of the thread where there was *ahem* 'discussion' regarding the pay of train drivers and the pay of pilots...

... Well as a former pilot I can safely say that pilots and aircraft are not in a 'completely' different league. Sure, aircraft are more technologically advanced but, as I imagine with train driving, once you have received the training, you are a pilot. Or a train driver. Or whatever.

In some ways I imagine trains are more difficult to operate than aircraft... Continuous concentration when driving a train (I'm not a driver... YET!) versus being able to relax at 37,000 feet on AP in a commercial jet aircraft. There's an old saying in aviation, that flying is 99% boredom, interspersed with 1% sheer panic. Not entirely true in this day and age, but the point is clear -

You are paid for that 1% when things go wrong.

 

[Mattm123]

I will start by saying I work for a TOC but not virgin.

It is only fair and right that virgin advertise these vacancies internally. Don't like it... Tough.


Apply for another role and work your way up rather than moaning.

 

[ghost]

Hi, has anyone one heard back yet?

 

[455driver]

Apply for another role and work your way up rather than moaning.

Just to save the "me me me" people posting it I will do it for you-


What!!!
Have to work my way up the ladder and wait for my job, how very dare you I want it now and I earned the right to that job because I filled an application form in.

There that should save a bit of bandwidth!

I dont work for Virmin either.

Spill chucker working fine thank you!

 

[craigybagel]

Stage 3, the paper based tests was held last week. Those who have been successful move on to Stage 4, the computer tests, which is happening sometime in July. I myself made it to Stage 3, but then had to withdraw due to a change in my circumstances.