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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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iantherev

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Crumbs that must be a task to keep to the timetable unless the '175' services are timed for 75mph if short of stock! Mind you on the GWR North Cotswold line, most services are timed for 90mph Turbo trains I think - if a 125mph train has to be substituted for a 90mph.

On the 23/10/18 after my first IET trip, someone at Didcot Parkway told me basically that a Pacer was used from Swansea to Manchester (must have been a little while before the 23/10/18) - my response was 'a Pacer ?!' Mind you the seats are all high-backed now and I'd catch it instead of waiting another hour anyway.

Plus, for a Pacer to run instead of a 175 must mean a more dire situation (worse than desperate I mean) at ATW.

The improvements on wiki (for the new Wales & Borders franchise) look promising and will mean way better trains for passengers thank goodness!

Doesn't have to be a dire situation fleet wise. All it needs is for a signalling problem in West Wales (as happened in the Llanelli area on Saturday) and for it to be a time of day when a Pacer is the only unit available on Canton when they decide to restart the train from Cardiff.
 
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Doesn't have to be a dire situation fleet wise. All it needs is for a signalling problem in West Wales (as happened in the Llanelli area on Saturday) and for it to be a time of day when a Pacer is the only unit available on Canton when they decide to restart the train from Cardiff.
I would need a lot more than that - Pacers would have to be cleared to work through Shrewsbury (can currently only do so with special authority and must be treated as on track plant), and Crewe men would need to be trained on them as no Cardiff crews have signed Manchester since the resignalling work more than a decade ago. No Pacer has ever worked a Marches service north of Craven Arms and those that got that far were all on the short-lived 00.30 SO Cardiff - Craven Arms. It's not, however, unheard of for them to work Manchester - west Wales services west of Cardiff (although quite rare).
 
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Mikey C

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By emphasising just these reused old trains in the article, cue the moaning comments about Wales getting palmed off with old trains etc

Apologies for the confusion, as I quoted the wrong comment and link :oops:

I actually meant to quote THIS link, where the comments below are all highly negative, as if these are the ONLY trains Wales will be getting.

 

headshot119

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Doesn't have to be a dire situation fleet wise. All it needs is for a signalling problem in West Wales (as happened in the Llanelli area on Saturday) and for it to be a time of day when a Pacer is the only unit available on Canton when they decide to restart the train from Cardiff.

Except they aren't route cleared, and the crews don't sign them to take them all the way.
 

kieron

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It's not a 90mph anything if it's a 150 operating it as it mostly is at present.
Whether it's 90mph or 75mph, it's still almost 20 miles straight at speeds a D-train can't match. I'm a bit surprised that they're fast enough to meet the service requirements. If a Chester-Crewe train was timed for more than 25 minutes, and everything else ran the same, it would either lose the connection with the train from Llandudno at Chester, or with the one to London at Crewe.

One thing I'm wondering is situations where a booked 158 or 175 isn't available for a service in North Wales. They often get a 150 from somewhere now, but what will happen if those aren't used locally?
 

craigybagel

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Whether it's 90mph or 75mph, it's still almost 20 miles straight at speeds a D-train can't match. I'm a bit surprised that they're fast enough to meet the service requirements. If a Chester-Crewe train was timed for more than 25 minutes, and everything else ran the same, it would either lose the connection with the train from Llandudno at Chester, or with the one to London at Crewe.

One thing I'm wondering is situations where a booked 158 or 175 isn't available for a service in North Wales. They often get a 150 from somewhere now, but what will happen if those aren't used locally?

Yes, I'd been wondering about that - especially as if there isn't one spare, then it's normally the Chester - Crewe or Blaneau services that get sacrificed. Anyone want to put money on a D-train making it all the way to Cardiff in service?!

That said, the Liverpool - Chester service was expected (before the franchise was announced) to be operated by 150s at first. If that doesn't change there will still be a need for 150s in the North.
 

Gareth Marston

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Yes, I'd been wondering about that - especially as if there isn't one spare, then it's normally the Chester - Crewe or Blaneau services that get sacrificed. Anyone want to put money on a D-train making it all the way to Cardiff in service?!

That said, the Liverpool - Chester service was expected (before the franchise was announced) to be operated by 150s at first. If that doesn't change there will still be a need for 150s in the North.

word on the Halton Curve service is

Traincrew available TICK eat your heart our Northern
Paths available and approved TICK
Funding in place TICK
Unit??????? oh ****.....
 

Nymanic

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The latest issue of Railway Herald includes an interior render of the CAF units. It's very refreshing to see a visible focus on window/seat alignment - didn't Northern claim that it wasn't possible to offer this on the new trains due to design constraints?

The bad news? Looks like KeolisAmey are going for the infamous Fainsa ironing boards. Oh dear. I'm sure they'll be heaps of fun on the longer-distance journeys - Manchester to Tenby comes in at six and a half hours, IIRC.

Love them or loathe them - and perhaps let's not debate them again here - but I hesitate to believe they were designed for journeys that long.
 

class387

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The latest issue of Railway Herald includes an interior render of the CAF units. It's very refreshing to see a visible focus on window/seat alignment - didn't Northern claim that it wasn't possible to offer this on the new trains due to design constraints?

The bad news? Looks like KeolisAmey are going for the infamous Fainsa ironing boards. Oh dear. I'm sure they'll be heaps of fun on the longer-distance journeys - Manchester to Tenby comes in at six and a half hours, IIRC.

Love them or loathe them - and perhaps let's not debate them again here - but I hesitate to believe they were designed for journeys that long.
I have nothing against either seat, but it seem strange to be seeing Fainsa ironing boards on the long-distance CAF units, while the Cardiff light-rail Stadlers are getting Grammer IC3000s (same as a GWR HST).
 

Gareth Marston

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csm_tn_gb-walesborders-caf-dmu-interior_56722a7dc2.jpg


from http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...upply-wales-borders-regional-train-fleet.html

Trouble spotting tables as well.

Trouble spotting decent size luggage racks as well.

One thing about a 3/4 year lead time at least we can lobby hard before they get built.
 
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superalbs

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So the metro trains get Grammer R3000, but yet the long-distance gets Fainsa Ironing Board.

What?!
 

sprinterguy

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Christ, that looks spartan: Whatever happened to the concept of making the interiors of long distance trains a comfortable and relaxing environment with such basic features as carpet, muted colours and seats that look like they might actually be comfortable to sit on, rather than taking their inspiration from prison cells where the primary criteria of the design appears to be to encourage passengers to want to leave as fast as possible so that the whole thing can be washed down with a high pressure hose?

Bright lights and white and grey plastics make for an exciting set design for the bridge of the Starship Enterprise, but a crap travelling environment.
 

Bletchleyite

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Lino flooring? Ironing boards? What on earth are they playing at? That's a regional stopping DMU, not an express interior.

The overheads are big, but they also need some floor level luggage stacks. One per section taking up the space of 2 seats would probably be about right, per most Class 170s.

The spacing looks very generous, though - so is some of the view that some people will put bags by their knees as they often do in priority seating on some stock?

Chiltern would probably be honoured at that interior (the Class 165 interior is about the nastiest, most garish scheme I have seen anywhere) but for InterCity type services? I don't have "door position prejudice" (after all, I quite like the Class 170 as an inter-regional unit) but as far as the seating goes that's not InterCity.
 

gareth950

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Ken Skates said in his cabinet statement on Monday 4th June:

"The new trains will offer an overall improvement to the quality and ambience of passenger facilities compared to the current fleet. We are committed to ensuring that this includes comfortable seats."

If this is a swipe at the ironing boards, it's puzzling that the picture shows ironing boards.
 
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krus_aragon

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And, by my reading of the tea leaves, West Wales will be served by 170s (in common with the Heart of Wales).
 

WelshBluebird

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How accurate are CGI renderings / artist impressions / mock ups in general when it comes to the interior of rolling stock? (as in could the image above not really reflect what is being planned).
 

Domh245

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AFAIAA it's going to be a single uniform fleet for simpler diagramming?

They are clearly separate on the rolling stock chart, and it'd be rather pointless giving them all first class (seeing as Swansea-Manchester will be getting first class services), so I doubt that (or at least hope that) they aren't a common fleet, in terms of interior fit out at least.
 

Bletchleyite

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They are clearly separate on the rolling stock chart, and it'd be rather pointless giving them all first class (seeing as Swansea-Manchester will be getting first class services), so I doubt that (or at least hope that) they aren't a common fleet, in terms of interior fit out at least.

Re first class the most likely in my eyes is that the end coaches will be identical but the middle coach of the 3 car sets will have a section of 1st, probably the bit between the doors.
 

Nymanic

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More pics available at RTM.

Interior_LOTE2_Wales_Borders_0001.jpg


Interior_LOTE2_Wales_Borders_0003.jpg


Interior_LOTE2_Wales_Borders_0004.jpg


Luggage racks make their appearance (edit: no evidence of tables on those facing seats), but the seats in the centre section of the car are aligned much in the same way as Northern's units. Not bad, but nothing special.

Indeed, we don't officially know whether or not the DMUs will be a uniform fleet, but for the sake of efficient diagramming I certainly see the case for it.
 
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47802

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Lino flooring? Ironing boards? What on earth are they playing at? That's a regional stopping DMU, not an express interior.

The overheads are big, but they also need some floor level luggage stacks. One per section taking up the space of 2 seats would probably be about right, per most Class 170s.

The spacing looks very generous, though - so is some of the view that some people will put bags by their knees as they often do in priority seating on some stock?

Chiltern would probably be honoured at that interior (the Class 165 interior is about the nastiest, most garish scheme I have seen anywhere) but for InterCity type services? I don't have "door position prejudice" (after all, I quite like the Class 170 as an inter-regional unit) but as far as the seating goes that's not InterCity.

A lot of European long distance trains go for Lino, anyway the interiors of Northern CAF units didn't end up looking much like the original images, something of a downgrade, maybe these will go the other way! apart from the Ironing Boards I like that interior, maybe put carpets under the seats and leave the walkway lino as GC are now doing. What's with the screens? is that supposed to be the PIS?
 
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pemma

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Ken Skates said in his cabinet statement on Monday 4th June:

"The new trains will offer an overall improvement to the quality and ambience of passenger facilities compared to the current fleet. We are committed to ensuring that this includes comfortable seats."

If this is a swipe at the ironing boards, it's puzzling that the picture shows ironing boards.

It's showing the 'improved' ironing board seats the same as the ones the new Northern units are getting. Northern showed off 3 types of seats at a 'seats roadshow' including the standard ironing boards and asked people which they liked best. The ironing boards came last. Bizarrely Northern claimed some people commented on the ironing boards offering better leg room despite the seats roadshow only having a pair of each type of seat and not indicating how much leg room each type would have. Either they're misleading us or some people presumed if they fitted the seats with thinner backs they wouldn't try to squeeze more rows of seats in.
 

pemma

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A lot of European long distance trains go for Lino, anyway the interiors of Northern CAF units didn't end up looking much like the original images, something of a downgrade, maybe these will go the other way! apart from the Ironing Boards I like that interior.

The original Northern mockups showed comfortable looking well padded seats.

Looking at the Welsh mockups does that mean they are going to use Renfe style TV screen CIS? If so maybe they'll also show current travelling speed and current exterior temperature like on Renfe services.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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": Incoming Wales & Borders franchisee KeolisAmey has selected CAF as preferred bidder for a contract to supply regional diesel multiple-units for the franchise’s rural and suburban services. "

Does this not make you think these will only be used on shorter journey's ? I doubt the pictured interior will be working the longer journey's they don't even have tables!!
 

Nymanic

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Re first class the most likely in my eyes is that the end coaches will be identical but the middle coach of the 3 car sets will have a section of 1st, probably the bit between the doors.

I don't think we've seen first class in the centre car of a 3-car unit since the days of Midland Mainline and Hull Trains - maybe for good reason. Doesn't that tend to eat up the overall capacity? Not to mention the inevitable crowding and constant walk-throughs, when it emerges the carriage where most passengers board is also the carriage where most of them can't sit. That can lead to disgruntled standees treating themselves to a free 'upgrade', at the expense of their premium-paying counterparts.

I hope I'm wrong about all that. Should be mitigated by multiple working on some services, but that doesn't happen flawlessly (see GWR).
 

craigybagel

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I don't think we've seen first class in the centre car of a 3-car unit since the days of Midland Mainline and Hull Trains - maybe for good reason. Doesn't that tend to eat up the overall capacity? Not to mention the inevitable crowding and constant walk-throughs, when it emerges the carriage where most passengers board is also the carriage where most of them can't sit. That can lead to disgruntled standees treating themselves to a free 'upgrade', at the expense of their premium-paying counterparts.

I hope I'm wrong about all that. Should be mitigated by multiple working on some services, but that doesn't happen flawlessly (see GWR).

350s and 450s have first class in the middle and it seems to work ok, but yes it would seem a lot less confusing to put it at one end. As for the most popular carriage, that's the one closest to the entrance of the busiest station. For Manchester - South Wales, that means the rear carriage both southbound (because of Manchester's bay Platforms) and northbound (because of the positioning of the stairs at both Cardiff and Newport).
 
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