Comeuppance! (Passengers traveling in 1st without valid ticket caught)

[najaB]

It is a problem in that it brings the concept of paying extra for first class into disrepute.

You have a very strange concept of 'disrepute'. If their T&Cs mean they are entitled to travel in First Class, then good on them.

The only time I'd have any issue with it (and only a very small one) is if a paying passenger had to stand - I'd like to think that their 'customer first' attitude would mean that they'd volunteer the seat. But if they didn't, that's between them and their conscience and none of my business.

 

[Starmill]

You have a very strange concept of 'disrepute'. If their T&Cs mean they are entitled to travel in First Class, then good on them.

The only time I'd have any issue with it (and only a very small one) is if a paying passenger had to stand - I'd like to think that their 'customer first' attitude would mean that they'd volunteer the seat. But if they didn't, that's between them and their conscience and none of my business.

Don't the terms of staff travel facilities typically require that seats are offered to passengers who have paid for full-price tickets if none are available?

 

[trainophile]

I'd rather suffer someone's stinky food than their stinky bodies.

A couple of weeks ago I was sitting across the table from an Oriental couple. I became vaguely aware of what smelt like very strong blue cheese, and wondered what someone was eating. After a little while the smell became nauseating. At that point I glanced down, and saw that under the table the male had taken his trainers off his bare feet (no socks), and that was where the smell was coming from!

I stared at the horrid things (the feet, not the couple) and eventually he shuffled his shoes back on. However the smell lingered, and I changed seats at the next stop, on the pretext of getting off the train.

 

[RJ]

Pity it was only PFs. A RoRA prosecution would have been relevant, as there was clearly an intent to travel without paying the correct First Class fare.

I think a prosection would be pointless. Nobody would benefit from it.

 

[najaB]

Don't the terms of staff travel facilities typically require that seats are offered to passengers who have paid for full-price tickets if none are available?

I believe so, but can't say for sure. So it's between them, their conscience and possibly their manager!

 

[jon0844]

I believe so, but can't say for sure. So it's between them, their conscience and possibly their manager!

I've seen staff get up to let others sit. I've seen them told not to worry, but they've insisted - presumably to avoid ending up photographed and appearing in the Daily Mail.

I think more firms should offer benefits to staff to boost morale and encourage people to want to stay in a job. And if others are jealous, they're free to get a job for that company!

 

[Phil.]

Is it a problem that staff were sat in First?
Do you know whether they had permission to sit in First?

"Is it a problem....".
When people are standing in a doorway of a first class coach due to overcrowding in standard then get a penalty fare (it wasn't thus on this occasion) you bet your sweet life.
"Do you know....". Why should staff have permission when fare paying passengers are penalised?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is nothing more annoying than someone with fish and chips when you're starving!

No one is starving in the United Kingdom.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't the terms of staff travel facilities typically require that seats are offered to passengers who have paid for full-price tickets if none are available?

Staff travelling for leisure purposes and staff travelling for duty purposes are two different things.

 

[najaB]

No one is starving in the United Kingdom.

While I get the point you're tying to make... (a) it's a commonly used idiomatic expression, and you know that's how I meant it; and (b) that isn't true.

 

[Phil.]

If you really want to wind up the passengers sit in first class with a high visibility vest on. Its hilarious when they tell you in a condescending manner you are sitting in first class and then when the inspector/guard gets on its them with the ticketing irregularity

This sort of childish behaviour does a lot of staff no good whatsoever. What exactly are you trying to prove?

 

[Llanigraham]

"Is it a problem....".
When people are standing in a doorway of a first class coach due to overcrowding in standard then get a penalty fare (it wasn't thus on this occasion) you bet your sweet life.

So why didn't you say that in the original posting?
How do you know they weren't entitled to 1st class travel, as some staff on duty are?

"Do you know....". Why should staff have permission when fare paying passengers are penalised?

Who were penalised?
Can I suggest that if you are so het-up about it that you report it to the relevant TOC, but to be honest, if the Guard or Train Manager has given permission there is not a lot you can do about it, especially when you do not know the whole facts, but have jumped to an anti-rail staff conclusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This sort of childish behaviour does a lot of staff no good whatsoever. What exactly are you trying to prove?

That there are too many people who have pre-conceived notions of their own self-importance and who jump to conclusions, without finding out the facts, perhaps?

 

[nw1]

I'm starting to think I'm the only person whose annoyance with people eating on the train is that it usually makes me hungry rather than leaving me feeling disgusted or outraged or similar!

Yes, finding it hard to understand people's problems with the smell of food.
Surely food smells nice, appetising, savoury etc. Doesn't it ?!?

 

[Starmill]

No one is starving in the United Kingdom.

You are quite sure about that, are you!? Must be nice in your world!

Staff travelling for leisure purposes and staff travelling for duty purposes are two different things.

Clearly. Now maybe you might provide an answer which is actually helpful, as opposed to pointing out a technicality in my phrasing. Or not.

 

[455driver]

I agree that is very antisocial to eat foul-smelling food on trains and I absolutely hate people who do so, especially on short journeys.

There is absolutely no need for it; you're not going to starve to death - wait until you get home and eat something properly, using a knife and fork, rather than stuffing your face with your paws whilst assaulting my nostrils.

Says the user with a user name very similar to a certain fast food chains biggest seller!

Oh the irony!

 

[bb21]

Can we all do without the bickering and sarcasm please?

 

[Deepgreen]

Dragging the thread back to the topic - this morning saw the opposite effect. My train from Redhill was a five car 377, with first class near the rear. When I got on there were at least ten people sitting in first. After a few minutes it became obvious to me that they shouldn't be there, given the frequent nervous glances down the train to see if the guard was coming. More boarded at Merstham and Coulsdon South and sat in first. Sure enough, my suspicions were confirmed at East Croydon when the train partly emptied and almost all those in first moved to the now-emptier standard class!

The guard was nowhere to be seen for the entire journey to Victoria, and it begs the question of why the guard doesn't take up his position in the first class vestibule in these situations - he would be a deterrent to the parasites and be able to patrol first with ease, while also being near the rear of the train to provide a spread of crew along its length (i.e. driver at the front, guard at the rear).

 

[gray1404]

Where would I have stood in this situation. I know you can walk through 1st if it is in the centre of a train. As I often do to get to the toilet on a LM service and on the SN service to/from MKC, but last week I was on the latter SN service and needed to speak to the guard. He was in first so I entered it and spoke to him, then left. Could RPI have taken an issue with that?

(I was on an advance ticket and my connection had been cancelled so I needed assistance with onward travel plans. The conversation resulted in him giving my "permission to travel" via an alternative route, quicker then waiting for the next direct connection and still sticking to the TOC restriction on the ticket.)

 

[MikeWh]

Where would I have stood in this situation. I know you can walk through 1st if it is in the centre of a train. As I often do to get to the toilet on a LM service and on the SN service to/from MKC, but last week I was on the latter SN service and needed to speak to the guard. He was in first so I entered it and spoke to him, then left. Could RPI have taken an issue with that?

(I was on an advance ticket and my connection had been cancelled so I needed assistance with onward travel plans. The conversation resulted in him giving my "permission to travel" via an alternative route, quicker then waiting for the next direct connection and still sticking to the TOC restriction on the ticket.)

In that specific situation I would be stunned if an RPI took exception. Presumably the first class area was relatively small so you would always either be talking to the guard or within earshot of him/her.

 

[gray1404]

In that specific situation I would be stunned if an RPI took exception. Presumably the first class area was relatively small so you would always either be talking to the guard or within earshot of him/her.

Correct, very small. But the guard had stationed himself up there in the door in the middle of the first class section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On a wider point though, my ticket was an advance ticket to Hove. So I was travelling from Milton Keynes Cental to Clapham Junction. The Capham Junction to Hove sector was cancelled. The result of the conversation was I was advised to get the next service from Clapham Junction to Brighton. Then a Brighton to Hove service. This meant I didn't have to wait for the next direct train and decreased the overall delay to my journey. I stuck to the TOC restrictions in the route field of my ticket.

Did I need permission to do this however, bearing in mind I was using an advance ticket? When RPI came though seconds after departure from Clapham Junction on Brighton service, I thought "oh no, I am going to have to give an explanation for being on a different train and ALSO on a different route." But thankfully they were only checking tickets in first class.

 

[MikeWh]

Correct, very small. But the guard had stationed himself up there in the door in the middle of the first class section.

In which case you should get the guard's name and include that in your appeal. I'd still be surprised if any RPI were to ignore such an explanation from a fellow employee. I'd also be reasonably certain that PF/your MP/Daily Mail et al would also be happy to get involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did I need permission to do this however, bearing in mind I was using an advance ticket? When RPI came though seconds after departure from Clapham Junction on Brighton service, I thought "oh no, I am going to have to give an explanation for being on a different train and ALSO on a different route." But thankfully they were only checking tickets in first class.

Probably not. You only deviate from the route after Preston Park and I'm sure that the Southern staff would have been very aware of the cancellation. Also, the deviation is under 3 miles so really nothing to get bothered about. Walk up tickets from north of Brighton/Hove are all valid via the other.

 

[John @ home]

I ... needed to speak to the guard. He was in first so I entered it and spoke to him, then left. Could RPI have taken an issue with that?

It seems to me that you did not remain in First Class accommodation, and therefore you were not in breach of Railway Byelaw 19.

RAILWAY BYELAWS

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . last week I was on the latter SN service and needed to speak to the guard. He was in first so I entered it and spoke to him, then left. Could RPI have taken an issue with that?

The Byelaw 19 Offence is "to remain in . . . any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for . . . holders of tickets of a specific class"
There has been little to clarify how 'remain' is to be read, but I'm unable to find how your description of events includes an element of 'remaining'. Unlike some other Byelaw offences which capture 'enter or remain in', this one is simply 'to remain'.

I can't comment on what any Inspector might find worthy of investigation, but that's a different question.

 

[sarahj]

Dragging the thread back to the topic - this morning saw the opposite effect. My train from Redhill was a five car 377, with first class near the rear. When I got on there were at least ten people sitting in first. After a few minutes it became obvious to me that they shouldn't be there, given the frequent nervous glances down the train to see if the guard was coming. More boarded at Merstham and Coulsdon South and sat in first. Sure enough, my suspicions were confirmed at East Croydon when the train partly emptied and almost all those in first moved to the now-emptier standard class!

The guard was nowhere to be seen for the entire journey to Victoria, and it begs the question of why the guard doesn't take up his position in the first class vestibule in these situations - he would be a deterrent to the parasites and be able to patrol first with ease, while also being near the rear of the train to provide a spread of crew along its length (i.e. driver at the front, guard at the rear).

Because there are no dispatch facilities in the vestibule next to first class, so at each station there would be a delay to squeeze through the train to get the train going. Plus, no matter how much you want it to be true, we cannot spend all our time on the train checking first class. There are many other punters and goings on involved. I once, on a very busy train had a punter before boarding, said, I hope you are going to check first class', then proceeded to walk to the first class bit in coach 1 of a 12 car full and standing train. When the train cleared out and I managed to get through checking tickets, I did get to the first class bit where he was, but we are not miracle workers, if a train is -packed, we cannot get through, and have to think of being in the correct places for dispatch. And sometimes a plan to check tickets can be trashed by a wheelchair, or someone needed assistance.
But don't worry, perhaps we will soon all be gone and replaced by some customer service thingimy, who may, or may not be on your train and will be gone by the next franchise change over anyway.

 

[gray1404]

Probably not. You only deviate from the route after Preston Park and I'm sure that the Southern staff would have been very aware of the cancellation. Also, the deviation is under 3 miles so really nothing to get bothered about. Walk up tickets from north of Brighton/Hove are all valid via the other.

Oh yeah, the station group rule so it would have been very difficult for anyway to have a case to say I had gone "off route".

Thanks to the rest of you for confirming the situation regarding "remaining" in first class and how it is the remaining there that makes the offence.

Makes me question my behaviour when I've walked to the front of a first class coach at the very front of the train when its been arriving into Euston to be one of the first off though. lol As I then ended up standing by the door a couple of minutes as we pulled into the platform. However, it sounds like boarding a first class section from the platform (for the sake of getting on a departing train) and then moving straight to standard would be all right.

 

[sarahj]

Oh yeah, the station group rule so it would have been very difficult for anyway to have a case to say I had gone "off route".

Thanks to the rest of you for confirming the situation regarding "remaining" in first class and how it is the remaining there that makes the offence.

Makes me question my behaviour when I've walked to the front of a first class coach at the very front of the train when its been arriving into Euston to be one of the first off though. lol As I then ended up standing by the door a couple of minutes as we pulled into the platform. However, it sounds like boarding a first class section from the platform (for the sake of getting on a departing train) and then moving straight to standard would be all right.

I've heard that trains coming into paddington bar standard folks from walking into first class to alight after first class punters complained they were struggling to leave the train due to all the interlopers. Boarding a first class coach, then leaving it to walk through into standard without taking a seat is allowed. At Victoria you find lots sitting in first in the coach next to the buffers going' but there were no other seats. How do you know, you boarded the first door, sat right down, there are another 12 coaches, possibly some with only one man and a dog.

 

[gray1404]

I've heard that trains coming into paddington bar standard folks from walking into first class to alight after first class punters complained they were struggling to leave the train due to all the interlopers.

I wonder how they enforce that. It would require staff on the train actually preventing customers from moving further down the train.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wonder how they enforce that. It would require staff on the train actually preventing customers from moving further down the train.

You'd only need one member of staff at the point where the first class starts, and there's already several staff on board most of these longer distance trains.

 

[matt_world2004]

This sort of childish behaviour does a lot of staff no good whatsoever. What exactly are you trying to prove?

Why is it childish to sit in first class with a first class ticket that you have paid for? The company I work for doesnt provide any free first class travel. It doesn't even retail first class travel.

 

[Phil.]

Why is it childish to sit in first class with a first class ticket that you have paid for? The company I work for doesnt provide any free first class travel. It doesn't even retail first class travel.

"If you really want to wind up.....".
Seems a little immature to me.

 

[gray1404]

If it just Southern that have this problem in the main of customers holding standard classs tickets sitting in first class. You do not hear about it as much on other TOCs.

 

[matt_world2004]

"If you really want to wind up.....".
Seems a little immature to me.

The winding up of passengers is an unintended consequence of sitting in first class in a high visiblity jacket. If a passenger makes assumptions based on the way I have dressed about weather I am carrying a first class ticket or not. That is their problem not mine.