First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[ainsworth74]

There really isn't enough time between the awarding of a franchise and the commencement - yet another flaw in the wonderful system

Well there is, there just isn't enough time for someone to decide to throw their toys out of the pram about the decision (after waiting for as long as possible before deciding to do anything about it).

I will be amazed (assuming the Judicial Review is granted which I don't think is anything like a certainty) if DOR aren't in place to take over in December. Whilst this industry/government are known for being slow movers, I think that when the decision is taken to do something and do it quickly then it can be done, very quickly.

 

[WatcherZero]

The time wasnt supposed to be this short, the Government delayed the West Coast franchising for a consultation on the Franchising process. Add to that the car wreck waiting to happen of 1/3rd of franchises up for renewal in a two year timespan.

 

[SprinterMan]

Long post incoming



Just looking at the RMT rail news archive, what little time and respect I had for Bob Crow has now gone. Comrade Crow has nothing good to say about First, but strangely, is very quiet when it comes to talking about SRB and/or Virgin Rail ....



First RMT press release about the ICWC franchise, dated 30th July.



2nd press release spreading lies, this one dated 2nd August.



3rd press release, repeating the same lies, and this time threatening strike action, dated 10th August.

4th press release containing the same lies, but this time, promising industrial action, dated 15th August.

5th press release, this one demanding guarantees from First over jobs and conditions, also dated 15th August.

6th press release. this time demanding that the Virgin and First bids be fully disclosed, dated 4th September.

7th press release, this one promising strike action, dated 13th September.

In all those press releases, nothing bad is said about SRB. Is he paying off Comrade Crow and the RMT to sound off against First for him?

Oh dear, it seem Bob Crow has sold his soul to the devil.....
Adam

 

[ainsworth74]

The time wasnt supposed to be this short, the Government delayed the West Coast franchising for a consultation on the Franchising process. Add to that the car wreck waiting to happen of 1/3rd of franchises up for renewal in a two year timespan.

Oh yes I'd forgotten about both of those contributing to the short timescale! I blame it on the late hour

 

[IanXC]

Except DOR don't have a safety case - and you need named people in posts for that. Oh, and it has to go through the ORR.

Tony Miles on WNXX reckons they could just about get DOR ready to go for December if they started now (within the next week) and if all parties and bodies co-operate fully....like that will happen.

There really isn't enough time between the awarding of a franchise and the commencement - yet another flaw in the wonderful system:roll:

Surely if push came to shove, DOR have a subsidiary with a safety case (East Coast Main Line Company Limited), could the senior managers not be "double hatted" to also operate ICWC (West Coast Main Line Company Limited?)?

 

[snail]

Firstly how can there be a trial if the commitment already exists

But is it a commitment to run services or a commitment to run a trial? The headline may say 'new services to Blackpool' but that can mean many things.

 

[Stats]

All we know for sure is that the franchise agreement contains Committed Obligations to provide new services between London and Blackpool, London and Shrewsbury, and Preston and Manchester Piccadilly via Bolton. These of course would be subject to obtaining ORR approval. My guess would be these Committed Obligations would contain clauses that require them to run them for a minimum period, and a performance or break clause that if after that minimum period that some criteria - whether that be profit, revenue, loadings, or something else - is not met then the services can be withdrawn and it is this which some quarters have referred to as a trial.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just spend a week travelling on FGW on holiday in devon. Relied entirely on train for transport as i have no car. Not one problem... friendly staff which apparently first do not have. Clean nice stations with far better facilities than northern and all in better condition than Virgins. Yes the odd train was late but thats par for every TOC. How anyone can say FGW are rubbish is beyond me. Although i went nowhere near reading which may explain some of it!

 

[jon0844]

Does what he [Bob Crow] says always need to make sense?

Absolutely not, but it would then require us to have a media that check facts and don't just quote from press releases without asking questions.

Bob, SRB and many others, know that newspapers and websites need to fill pages and haven't got the time or manpower to go checking everything. It makes PR companies extremely valuable now (more than ever) because the big boys will just print it - and the smaller, more focussed, titles/sites will question it but for the most part be unnoticed - or even considered to be biased (hence the accusations of being 'anti union' or 'working for First' etc).

Bob knows exactly what he's doing - and has proven exactly how easy it is to do and get away with.

I do wonder why the RMT is so supportive of SRB though. Has Richard given a donation to the union or something?

 

[Wath Yard]

Except DOR don't have a safety case - and you need named people in posts for that. Oh, and it has to go through the ORR.

Tony Miles on WNXX reckons they could just about get DOR ready to go for December if they started now (within the next week) and if all parties and bodies co-operate fully....like that will happen.

There really isn't enough time between the awarding of a franchise and the commencement - yet another flaw in the wonderful system:roll:

And where is the evidence they haven't already started preparations?

If they haven't already started then why wouldn't they start in the next week? All the smart money is on a decision whether there will be full judicial review in the next few days, so by the end of next week we should know whether DOR or FirstGroup will be running services in December. Therefore, by Mr Miles's own admission there is enough time for DOR to take over. You do remember the thread on WNXX was locked and butchered a few weeks ago due to Tony Miles's wild and inaccurate accusations regarding what First were going to do to staff don't you?

 

[CC 72100]

Just spend a week travelling on FGW on holiday in devon. Relied entirely on train for transport as i have no car. Not one problem... friendly staff which apparently first do not have. Clean nice stations with far better facilities than northern and all in better condition than Virgins. Yes the odd train was late but thats par for every TOC. How anyone can say FGW are rubbish is beyond me. Although i went nowhere near reading which may explain some of it!

Absolutely my view too. Never had any problems down in Devon & Cornwall (where I am for uni), ironically only a 30 minute delay on a Pad - Worcester last week due to signalling problems and trying to remove a passenger at Swindon (who then bailed at his own accord at Kemble!)

I think that FGWs 'problems' are nearly always on the Reading - Pad corridor, mainly from commuters, who are probably the hardest to please in the first place!

 

[jon0844]

You'll never please most commuters. When I commuted daily, most people just got on with things and seemed happy enough to read their paper, listen to music, play on their iPhone or whatever.

They mostly knew the score with the little details, like having to stand still for a minute or two to wait to get on the fast line (and thus, get there faster than continuing to crawl on the slow). To others, merely standing still for more than 5 seconds anywhere but in a station was cause to go off on one.

Some moaned about anything. Like being held outside King's Cross for a platform, even when we were too early.. and tutting and commenting about how crap the service is because they've got somewhere to be. Yes, the train is early and it's 8am and King's Cross is full - and you expect to just waltz in and block a train due to leave on time but will now be held up? And if the train arrives early or bang on time, what the hell are you moaning about anyway? Surely you didn't plan for an early arrival to get where you need to be?

I (and others) did occasionally explain to some commuters what was going on, or gave information as to what the delay was (having looked it up online) but even when you explain the fault - such as a trespasser ahead or even a fatality, or the lines being down or whatever, you know they're angry that you've stopped them being able to rant - and so they just carry on ranting anyway!

If only Virgin ran a franchise that consisted of people like this - I bet their reputation wouldn't be quite the same.

 

[tbtc]

Just spend a week travelling on FGW on holiday in devon. Relied entirely on train for transport as i have no car. Not one problem... friendly staff which apparently first do not have. Clean nice stations with far better facilities than northern and all in better condition than Virgins. Yes the odd train was late but thats par for every TOC. How anyone can say FGW are rubbish is beyond me. Although i went nowhere near reading which may explain some of it!

Yes, but First ran Pacers around Manchester fifteen years ago, which seems to be much more relevant to some people than the experience they've had running an intense Intercity service pretty efficiently on the GWML.

Sadly most of those grumbling about the WCML bid won't have used First's Greater Western franchise though.

 

[Aictos]

Ive just read a letter in RAIL which states that the writer has three question points they have:

1. First not to change the name of West Coast.

2. Hopefully Virgin will bid and win the ECML then take the 390s with them.

3. First to recruit Chris Gibb so he can continue to improve the WCML as he's done over the past few years.

I can only agree with the 3rd point as I very much doubt that the DfT will allow Virgin to put in a winning bid for the ECML then nick the 390s off First, it simply ain't going to happen!

 

[jon0844]

Can someone please remind Virgin Trains that they don't own the trains?

I know people who signed the e-petition believe they do, and I've had people tell me that they designed, ordered and paid for them - which presumably means they're free to take them with them (maybe export them all to Richard's island?) in December.

The fact, whoever wins the ECML franchise will inherit the trains already in use and then the IEP trains where applicable.

That's not to say that one day you might not get new trains for the WCML and cascade the 390s elsewhere, but I doubt it would be to the ECML.

 

[TheJRB]

Can someone please remind Virgin Trains that they don't own the trains?

I know people who signed the e-petition believe they do, and I've had people tell me that they designed, ordered and paid for them - which presumably means they're free to take them with them (maybe export them all to Richard's island?) in December.

I wish somebody in the media could slip this fact in somewhere as it's seriously annoying me (and I can imagine I'm not the only one). I was at Stafford a couple of weeks ago and I overheard a family who were discussing Virgin losing West Coast; one of them asked what Virgin were going to do with their trains! Would it really be that difficult to explain that rolling stock is owned by leasing companies and then leased to the operators? :roll:

 

[SprinterMan]

Ive just read a letter in RAIL which states that the writer has three question points they have:

1. First not to change the name of West Coast.

2. Hopefully Virgin will bid and win the ECML then take the 390s with them.

3. First to recruit Chris Gibb so he can continue to improve the WCML as he's done over the past few years.

I can only agree with the 3rd point as I very much doubt that the DfT will allow Virgin to put in a winning bid for the ECML then nick the 390s off First, it simply ain't going to happen!

1. Does this mean First West Coast will have to call themselves "Virgin Trains", or use the words "West Coast" in the name of their company.

2. Yeah, just like when NXEA lost Greater Anglia they took the 90s and Mark 3s with them for use with c2c, so Abellio now uses Northern Pacers in their place....

3. Not 100% who he is, but I'm sure First are perfectly capable of picking their own staff.

Adam

 

[sprinterguy]

You'll never please most commuters...

They can be a cynical old bunch, those commuters. I was travelling into Euston on the 07:30 from Birmingham one morning this week, while the suited gent in the seats in front of me described to his colleague that the ride qualities of the Pendolinos at full speed put him in mind of being on a ferry, with the sudden rolling motion. Another suit wearing fellow sitting across the aisle then gravely interjected into his musings that we can forget about the trains travelling fast once First Group take over! :roll: The first suit then tidily finished up this little exchange by sardonically mentioning that at least in the future we can look forward to HS2 reducing the Birmingham to London journey time “by about three minutes”.

I’m glad that I don’t occupy a world as miserably pessimistic as theirs!

 

[jon0844]

No harm in people moaning if they're actually at least partially correct about certain key facts!

Still, I'd love to know that jobs these people had. People that a) Think a tilting train is anything like a ferry (I was recently on a boat that went through a fairly mild storm and it's somewhat worse) b) That First will replace the trains, or somehow slow them down purely out of spite and c) HS2 will only save three minutes.

Sure, some of it might have been some general banter, not meant to be taken seriously, but I fear that some people really do believe their own nonsense when giving their opinion on the state of the railway (and of course, many other things).

 

[northwichcat]

Bob Crow has called a strike ballot for Virgin staff.

THE RMT says it is preparing to hold a strike ballot in protest at the continuing uncertainty over the award of the next Intercity West Coast franchise.

The DfT is making contingency plans in case Virgin's legal challenge prevents completion of the contract with FirstGroup in time for a transfer on 9 December, and the union said thousands of staff have been left in doubt about whether they will still have a job.

RMT general secretary Bob Crow said; "The fiasco over West Coast has left staff and the travelling public without a clue as to who will be running this key transport artery in little more than ten weeks time. It is still not out of the question that there will be no one to run it if the Government don’t stop messing about and accept that, with the clock ticking down, they need to get on with the public sector option as a matter of urgency or risk a total meltdown.

“Transfer of staff and operations cannot be done overnight and with DOR on the East Coast tried and tested it is simply the Government’s entrenched opposition to public control, even though it is now supported by 70 per cent of the British people, that is stopping them getting on with this logical and urgent option for the West Coast route.

“The case for renationalisation is now overwhelming as a key route in the nation that gave the railways to the world is dragged down to a laughing stock by the insane privatisation process. The public sector stepped in and rescued the East Coast and rather than waiting for history to repeat itself we are calling for the safe and logical publicly-owned option to now be given an opportunity to sort the West Coast debacle.”

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/09/14-strike-ballot-announced-over-west.html

 

[Wath Yard]

I would also like to see No. 2 but only because I travel on the WCML more often than the ECML.

On a more serious note, I don't see how Virgin can bid for any more franchises and retain a shred of credibility. In their own words the franchising system encourages reckless, undeliverable bids. Therefore if that is true, if they bid for the ECML with a 'deliverable' bid they can't win, and if they do win then their bid must be reckless and undeliverable.

 

[Aictos]

Can someone please remind Virgin Trains that they don't own the trains?

I know people who signed the e-petition believe they do, and I've had people tell me that they designed, ordered and paid for them - which presumably means they're free to take them with them (maybe export them all to Richard's island?) in December.

The fact, whoever wins the ECML franchise will inherit the trains already in use and then the IEP trains where applicable.

That's not to say that one day you might not get new trains for the WCML and cascade the 390s elsewhere, but I doubt it would be to the ECML.

I totally agree which is why I believe that the Midland Mainline is capable of 125mph operation BUT this depends I believe on tilting trains being cascaded onto the route ie 390s or similar, while the existing 222s are capable of 125mph operation I think they're restricted to 110mph on the route?

Now while I don't see the 390s going anywhere for a number of years, if the 222s are NOT able to run at 125mph on the Midland Mainline then I believe that a addon order to the 6 car trains that First will eventually operate should be made although I'm not sure if these ought to be 6 cars with services running as 12 car trains, a mix of 6 and 8 car trains or just run them as 9 car trains?

This is because I can't see the HSTs continuing past 2030 without their replacement being considered.

 

[sprinterguy]

No harm in people moaning if they're actually at least partially correct about certain key facts!

Still, I'd love to know that jobs these people had. People that a) Think a tilting train is anything like a ferry (I was recently on a boat that went through a fairly mild storm and it's somewhat worse) b) That First will replace the trains, or somehow slow them down purely out of spite and c) HS2 will only save three minutes.

Sure, some of it might have been some general banter, not meant to be taken seriously, but I fear that some people really do believe their own nonsense when giving their opinion on the state of the railway (and of course, many other things).

Certainly, the nature of the conversation seemed quite light hearted and off the cuff, particularly concerning the paltry HS2 time saving, rather than being a major doom and gloom gripe, but with the comment about First slowing down the service particularly there definitely appeared to be a reasonable amount of belief in what they were saying, too. The brief exchange just amused me a little, rather than irritating, and I thought it worth sharing here.

 

[CalumCookable]

I totally agree which is why I believe that the Midland Mainline is capable of 125mph operation BUT this depends I believe on tilting trains being cascaded onto the route ie 390s or similar, while the existing 222s are capable of 125mph operation I think they're restricted to 110mph on the route?

Now while I don't see the 390s going anywhere for a number of years, if the 222s are NOT able to run at 125mph on the Midland Mainline then I believe that a addon order to the 6 car trains that First will eventually operate should be made although I'm not sure if these ought to be 6 cars with services running as 12 car trains, a mix of 6 and 8 car trains or just run them as 9 car trains?

This is because I can't see the HSTs continuing past 2030 without their replacement being considered.

I thought a few sections of the MML could be upgraded to 125mph with the existing rolling stock? There was a test run recently in which one of the 222s reached that speed.

 

[MK Tom]

I thought a few sections of the MML could be upgraded to 125mph with the existing rolling stock? There was a test run recently in which one of the 222s reached that speed.

Yes there is an intention to upgrade sections south of Bedford to 125 mph. The tests were largely to do with aerodynamics and clearances through Ampthill Tunnel as I understand it.

 

[ainsworth74]

I while the existing 222s are capable of 125mph operation I think they're restricted to 110mph on the route?

I'm fairly sure Network Rail are in the middle of an upgrade that will introduce some sections of 125mph running. Certainly they're looking at raising linespeeds along the MML. There was a useful document (that of course I didn't save :roll that outlined exactly where and what the speed increases would be.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Just thinking of how many 10s of 1000's of gallons of blue paint etc will be used!!!
Million pounds worth of respraying & vinyl, or am I miles out!!! :roll:

 

[Wath Yard]

Probably not £700 million worth.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just thinking of how many 10s of 1000's of gallons of blue paint etc will be used!!!
Million pounds worth of respraying & vinyl, or am I miles out!!!

They'll probably repaint one or two trains for the launch of the franchise and the rest will run around in VT Silver with FWC vinyl's stuck on the side until they're due a repaint. Either way in the grand scheme of things I'm less than convinced by the argument that repaints somehow cost a great deal of money.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just thinking of how many 10s of 1000's of gallons of blue paint etc will be used!!!
Million pounds worth of respraying & vinyl, or am I miles out!!! :roll:

ATW's class 175s still show elements of the original First (ex-FNW) livery (the lilac band at waist level in the saloons) even after a full refit and repaint.
Goes very badly with the Arriva green seats/carpet.