Northern strike action suspended

[bb21]

No it hasn't "achieved a good result for their members", it's cost them thousands each.

And for what, we'll have a second member of staff on the train, just like we have now, and just like we were always going to have.

Short of having barriers at EVERY station, what other option was there?

To me, whether they have "achieved a good result for their members" depends on your perspective and your level of scepticism about the intentions of the government. You are both correct to a certain extent, but I wouldn't be getting overly excited just yet.

Encouraging signs so far for those poor customers who have suffered a great deal of late.

 

[bb21]

Tony Miles

You'll have to excuse my ignorance. Who is that?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Did we really come that close to having a train being worked by Carlisle Revenue?

Possibly yes, and that's a scary thought... imagine being on a train that derails, fouling the adjacent line, in the middle of Morley Tunnel. Driver incapacitated, and the only member of staff on board can't help with evacuation (or put down detonators to alert other traffic) as they aren't PTS trained...

I wouldn't want to be a passenger in that situation, and I wouldn't want to be the staff member either.

 

[craigybagel]

No it hasn't "achieved a good result for their members", it's cost them thousands each.

And for what, we'll have a second member of staff on the train, just like we have now, and just like we were always going to have.

Short of having barriers at EVERY station, what other option was there?

Northern don't give a damn about revenue. If they did they'd have fitted their units with extra door controls years ago, or made a better effort of barriering their stations

This dispute was about making it possible to run trains with only a driver. Thanks to this dispute, they have failed in their attempt to make this happen.

And it's worth pointing out - this dispute wasnt the reckless action of an uncontrolled Union - it was democratically voted for by it's members, who from what I can tell are now pretty happy, or at least cautiously optimistic, about their future.

 

[WatcherZero]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance. Who is that?

Senior Modern Railways journalist and BBC go to rail commentator.

He also says Mick Cash is coming in to oversee the conclusion of talks personally.

 

[bb21]

Senior Modern Railways journalist and BBC go to rail commentator.

He also says Mick Cash is coming in to oversee the conclusion of talks personally.

Right, thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

ASLEF has signalled to Northern they have no problem operating doors.... for a price.

So basically OBS (in some cases), but if they're not there the train is cancelled.

Interesting. I'm not really sure what this gains over driver release, guard close.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

DOO only works with stations which are staffed and barriered. This is fine on London commuter routes where stations have been barriered for years, but to implement it on a route like Wharfedale or Calder Valley would cost more than the savings in guards' wages. Stations like Walsden, Ravensthorpe and even the newly built Low Moor and Kirkstall Forge, would need buildings installed (or at the very least canopies over the gatelines) and fencing to prevent folk from dodging round said gatelines. Considering TPE spent a load of money installing barriers at Dewsbury which can't be used due to a lack of fire exits from P1, a bit more common sense is required.

I'm of the opinion that the whole debacle was driven by a Tory determination to smash the unions. That they appear to have failed in those efforts for now doesn't mean it's all champagne and smiles though. Come the next franchise negotiations, it'll all come round again. If any moves towards DOO are implemented, they need to be properly costed with regard to alternatives, including staffing and barriering ALL stations.

 

[Eccles1983]

Tony Miles

Unless he has told you this personally then where is the source?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm of the opinion that the whole debacle was driven by a Tory determination to smash the unions. That they appear to have failed in those efforts for now doesn't mean it's all champagne and smiles though. Come the next franchise negotiations, it'll all come round again. If any moves towards DOO are implemented, they need to be properly costed with regard to alternatives, including staffing and barriering ALL stations.

Much now depends on just how ASLEF approach the changes which appear now to have been agreed in principle. They will surely have learned from the GX/SN experience and look to ensure that the necessary changes to their T&Cs are fairly tight in scope, possibly with some reference to drivers not being expected to take sole responsibility for safe operation of passenger trains. This would allow for a wider rollout of trains with doors fully controlled by the driver but would still ensure that trains in passenger service must have a fully safety trained second member of staff on board ie a Conductor-Guard. Full DOO has, in the past at least, led to significant increases in drivers' pay: perhaps by going for something rather short of DOO Northern can avoid such cost escalation going forward, remembering that their stated intention was to retain a second member of traincrew in any case. Given the feelings expressed by so many drivers about moving to full DOO I think there's a reasonable chance that the changes do not have to cost very much.

 

[Kite159]

When they do come around there's loads without tickets and the guard has his/her hands full. There should be barriers. It's a lot of lost revenue.

Although all the barriers will say is that ticket is valid at that station, not for the journey being made...

...Single to Edge Hill anyone?

 

[Tetchytyke]

it is very much the exception that I see a Northern guard doing any more than the absolute minimum

Amazing how people don't try so hard when their employer is trying to get rid of their job.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

ASLEF has signalled to Northern they have no problem operating doors.... for a price.

If so, that’s that. Good result in the circumstances.

 

[PR1Berske]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

ASLEF has signalled to Northern they have no problem operating doors.... for a price.

All agreements come with compromises, and price tags!

 

[Llama]

Let's hope that the guards who tend to be 'shy' realise the significance of this decision to retain them for this franchise. We have also had one guard dismissed recently at my place for serial failure to collect revenue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Let's hope that the guards who tend to be 'shy' realise the significance of this decision to retain them for this franchise. We have also had one guard dismissed recently at my place for serial failure to collect revenue.

In my experience (my local station has 1tph in each direction from both Northern and TPE) TPE guards seem far less visible than the Northern ones. Whether this is the case on other shared routes, I'm not sure... but there seems to be an attitude with TPE that the smaller stations are an inconvenience they've been saddled with, both from management and front-line staff.

 

[Mathew S]

Amazing how people don't try so hard when their employer is trying to get rid of their job.

Which is, to be blunt, idiotic. If your job is under threat you should be trying to prove that you are (or your role is) worth keeping. Reinforcing negative perspectives by not doing even the bare minimum expected of you is just asking for the chop.

 

[PR1Berske]

Which is, to be blunt, idiotic. If your job is under threat you should be trying to prove that you are (or your role is) worth keeping. Reinforcing negative perspectives by not doing even the bare minimum expected of you is just asking for the chop.

Exactly. Now that they've fought for their jobs, and won, they should be careful not to be seen to have little care for those jobs!

 

[Tomnick]

The Southern OBSs still have a key and use local door to prevent the train departing.

They do, but that seems to introduce an unnecessary risk of confusion if the driver’s trying to close the doors without initially realising that the OBS has a key on somewhere. How does the OBS prevent the train departing, if a wheelchair user needs to be helped on at the other end of the train, whilst he makes his way to that door? There are so many questions and I just don’t understand (as I think you agree) why anyone would consider that method of working preferable to driver release/guard close, especially if there’s a guard guaranteed to be on the train anyway!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

DOO only works with stations which are staffed and barriered.

What utter rubbish. There are plenty of stations on the Glasgow suburban network that are unstaffed, are used by DOO services and do not have barriers.

 

[Kite159]

What utter rubbish. There are plenty of stations on the Glasgow suburban network that are unstaffed, are used by DOO services and do not have barriers.

And not to mention the hundreds of station in the South East which have been DOO since NSE times which don't have barriers and some are not even staffed (just have a TVM).

 

[driver_m]

What utter rubbish. There are plenty of stations on the Glasgow suburban network that are unstaffed, are used by DOO services and do not have barriers.

And if memory serves me correctly, suffers from serious ASB from my time up there. Both in train and on platforms, unless rigourously staffed .

 

[driver_m]

Much now depends on just how ASLEF approach the changes which appear now to have been agreed in principle. They will surely have learned from the GX/SN experience and look to ensure that the necessary changes to their T&Cs are fairly tight in scope, possibly with some reference to drivers not being expected to take sole responsibility for safe operation of passenger trains. This would allow for a wider rollout of trains with doors fully controlled by the driver but would still ensure that trains in passenger service must have a fully safety trained second member of staff on board ie a Conductor-Guard. Full DOO has, in the past at least, led to significant increases in drivers' pay: perhaps by going for something rather short of DOO Northern can avoid such cost escalation going forward, remembering that their stated intention was to retain a second member of traincrew in any case. Given the feelings expressed by so many drivers about moving to full DOO I think there's a reasonable chance that the changes do not have to cost very much.

Ahem...You can also achieve decent pay increases without DOO. Look at what XC drivers pick up .

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do, but that seems to introduce an unnecessary risk of confusion if the driver’s trying to close the doors without initially realising that the OBS has a key on somewhere. How does the OBS prevent the train departing, if a wheelchair user needs to be helped on at the other end of the train, whilst he makes his way to that door? There are so many questions and I just don’t understand (as I think you agree) why anyone would consider that method of working preferable to driver release/guard close, especially if there’s a guard guaranteed to be on the train anyway!

Indeed, I find the whole OBS working method a bit bizarre, and while I see what was trying to be achieved with them by making them optional (saving money on route learning, increasing flexibility etc) it does seem to be a really cack-handed way of working, which might have been better with them actually dispatching (even if that was by some kind of bell code) if present.

But as they aren't going to be optional on Northern, it seems silly to use anything other than driver release, guard close.

 

[Andrew32]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

ASLEF has signalled to Northern they have no problem operating doors.... for a price.

I can confirm that the above is incorrect on all counts, the only thing that has been agreed is a safety critical guard on all services for the remainder of the franchise, thats from a senior RMT officer.

In regards as Merseyrail agreement, there isn't one yet as its still being discussed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

I thought that the matter most stressed by the RMT in debates and interviews was the safety-critical duties performed to be protectful of the travelling public in instances when this need should arise, so surely that is one matter that they now cannot be seen to agreeing to.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ahem...You can also achieve decent pay increases without DOO. Look at what XC drivers pick up .

My comment was not to suggest that DOO is necessary in order to secure a hefty pay increase, rather to suggest that, from a TOC's POV, by avoiding full DOO it might be possible to avoid such an increase being granted just to make DOO agreeable to drivers.

 

[infobleep]

How can something that was impossible for two years happen almost overnight?

I quite agree here. If it can be agreed after 2 years why could it not be agreed two years ago or to give them some slack, perhaps 21 months ago.

Taking two years to agree something sounds a bit like someone not doing their job properly. I've come across situations before now where one person suggests something without having the expert knowledge and those with the knowledge are not listened to. This leads to things dragging on longer than is needed. I don't have a problem with outsiders giving comment and challenging those with knowedlege but when it ends up shifting towards what those which knowledge said from the beginning then I object. Especially if it takes months if not years.

I hope there will be a lesions learned review into why it took so long to agree this. Do they ever to lesions learned on industrial disputes?

I'm dyslexic so I know what's it's like to not work so fast. Perhaps the nagoiaters were all dyslexic. Haha. Although if they were dyslexic, you'd think they would be intelligent enough to realise just how worthwhile it is to have a second safety trained member of staff on board all trains.

I'm aware some trains don't have this and yes I do take the risk and travel on them. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

And indeed, I (and many others I guess!) would be interested to hear of the views of DfT's Peter Wilkinson on this solution ... But sadly I expect we never will

I suspect the truth will never come out, unless someone working inside is paid a lot of money to spill the beans. Would have to be someone who wanted to become or was a former employee though.

I for one would pay good money to hear & view that one

So would I. Alas they probably don't need our money or if they did, would still not want it.

Can agree with most of that and, sitting on hands, will stay on topic.

You may well not get to hear the details of the DfT's involvement. I also have a suspicion that the hand of Grayling has had some input or has issued an ultimatum of some kind to have it sorted by Mar 29th.

I'd like to hear Grayling's views. His real thoughts though. Not edited spin.

Also would like to read the views of forum members involved in the Govia Thameslink Railway dispute and what they think of this. Do they wish this kind of deal had come to GTR or do they think the GTR deal is better?

This one sounds better to me but I don't work in the industry.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What utter rubbish. There are plenty of stations on the Glasgow suburban network that are unstaffed, are used by DOO services and do not have barriers.

How are those routes for fare evasion?

 

[xc170]

The seats in the back cabs of Northern units will be kept warm for a few years yet then.