Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Flying_Turtle]

Ah that old chesnut; France in fact on Intercity routes which are not TGV or ran with comfortable but getting-on-a-bit loco + coaches will actually be run most likely by Bombardier DMUs, with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 down the carriage in 3/4/5 formations.

So perhaps not quite so far away from a class 170

Oh but the Bombardier DMU s have a darn good reason not to have doors at the carriage ends... take a good look at them

 

[jingsmonty]

Agreed.


HST: Class 91 locomotive with mark 4 vehicles and DVT, classes 158, 159, 168, 170, 171, 172, 175, 180, 220, 221, 222, 253, 254 and 373
MU: Multiple Unit Trains
DMU: Diesel Multiple Units
EMU: Electrical Multiple Units
SP: Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170 , 171 and 172
CS: Class 67 locomotive

At locations where more than one speed indicator is displayed, classes listed in more than one speed category shown above, may run at the higher of the speeds displayed.

National exceptions to MU trains
• Class 185 trains are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds
• Class 390 trains are not permitted to run at MU or EMU speeds
• Class 253 and 254 trains formed with less than three coaches between the power cars are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds.

Thanks for confirming that...I was sure that HSTs could use MU speed boards. One snag with the HSTs on ScotRail Intercity trains is the differential speeds on the Highland Mainline..they are all SP boards! Wonder if there will be a local instruction for Scotrail HST? Mind you, a 4/5 coach HST is bound to be able to go up the gradients faster than a 170 (a 'good' 170 can do about 60mph heading north from Blair Atholl up the hill, if you get more that 55mph heading south from Inverness up to Culloden Moor, you'll be lucky..on an 80mph line!).

 

[Highland37]

Could I ask about the planned refurbishment of the HSTs?

I understand the FGW Mk3s were refurbished recently and from the pictures I can see online, they look very nice. Will Scotrail just re-brand the FGW coaches or go for something more involved?

 

[sprinterguy]

Could I ask about the planned refurbishment of the HSTs?

I understand the FGW Mk3s were refurbished recently and from the pictures I can see online, they look very nice. Will Scotrail just re-brand the FGW coaches or go for something more involved?

It will be much more involved. They will be fitted with power doors and CET tanks, new seats, tables, floor coverings and carpets, additional power sockets and improved LED lighting.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont see the need for new seats, esp if it means ironing boards as the current seating is the same as fitted to some of the 158s and I understand these will also be installed in the Haymarket ones when refurbished?

 

[sprinterguy]

I dont see the need for new seats, esp if it means ironing boards as the current seating is the same as fitted to some of the 158s and I understand these will also be installed in the Haymarket ones when refurbished?

It does seem strange not to reuse the relatively new Grammer seating already fitted to FGWs' HST vehicles, especially given that, as you say, the same design of seat is fitted to refurbished class 158s, but "new seats" is what has been reported by Abellio Scotrail.

 

[Clansman]

GWR has quite high density seating on the HSTs, and the high back seat desgin doesnt give you impression of a spacious cabin. The tables are smaller as well, as is the legroom (imo). I can imagine Scotrail would go down the XC route (not literally) with their HST refurbishment in terms of interior, but with Scotrail colours, more tables and Chilternised coaches.

I'm curious to find out what the buffet car is going to look like. In the plans it does state "Galley" rather than buffet, so I can imagine the buffet will probably be in the same carriage as first class. XC style comes to mind again, but with a shop counter as opposed to just the kitchen door, which should give plenty of space at the end of the carriage for queuing space (as opposed to the little area of standard seats aboard XCs buffet Mk3s).

 

[route:oxford]

GWR has quite high density seating on the HSTs, and the high back seat desgin doesnt give you impression of a spacious cabin. The tables are smaller as well, as is the legroom (imo). I can imagine Scotrail would go down the XC route (not literally) with their HST refurbishment in terms of interior, but with Scotrail colours, more tables and Chilternised coaches.

I'm curious to find out what the buffet car is going to look like. In the plans it does state "Galley" rather than buffet, so I can imagine the buffet will probably be in the same carriage as first class. XC style comes to mind again, but with a shop counter as opposed to just the kitchen door, which should give plenty of space at the end of the carriage for queuing space (as opposed to the little area of standard seats aboard XCs buffet Mk3s).

It's important not to forget that the operation of these units will not be too dissimilar to the operations on the GWR.

In the evening peak, services are crush loaded from Glasgow to Stirling and Dunblane. And like on GWR, Scotrail commuters want to get on the fast train that is going now, not the slightly slower train that is going 5 minutes later.

I'm not convinced that filling a carriage with tables seats is going to be overly helpful - for most services, it's not a tourist making the journey - it's the same people day-in, day-out who are more interested in their device than playing footsie with a loved one.

 

[Clansman]

It's important not to forget that the operation of these units will not be too dissimilar to the operations on the GWR.

In the evening peak, services are crush loaded from Glasgow to Stirling and Dunblane. And like on GWR, Scotrail commuters want to get on the fast train that is going now, not the slightly slower train that is going 5 minutes later.

I'm not convinced that filling a carriage with tables seats is going to be overly helpful - for most services, it's not a tourist making the journey - it's the same people day-in, day-out who are more interested in their device than playing footsie with a loved one.

By "more table seats", I'm not talking about converting whole carriages to table seat only. If you look at the table:aisle ratio on GWR HSTs, looking at pictures, you can tell that there are less table seats, as GWR sets don't go by the traditional IC70 original seat layout - only VTEC and EMT do. So, by comparing the Scotrail refurb to XC, I was meaning that if Scotrail were to go down the XC refurbishment route, then there would probably be more tables as stated in the plans on Rail Magazine.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I do hope that the interior is designed with more than a nodd to commuters as the emphasis on much of the non EMU stock is on tourists who will benifit but locals must be catered for too

 

[gsnedders]

It's worthwhile pointing out that almost all services to/from Aberdeen, and I think all to Inverness are single two/three car DMUs, so even a five-car HST with plenty of table seating is likely going to have more seats.

 

[Blindtraveler]

True enough, plus more space for standees in vestibules

Wonder what the stance will be on standing outside FC with a Standaed ticket?

 

[Eng274]

Happens all the time on Great Northern. Less than five people sat in first class on a 317, sandwiched between two rammed vestibules.

 

[Clansman]

Wonder what the stance will be on standing outside FC with a Standaed ticket?

We'll cross that bridge in 2 years when some nutter creates a thread complaining of it

 

[47271]

In the evening peak, services are crush loaded from Glasgow to Stirling and Dunblane.

I regularly use the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness and, yes, it's mobbed until the Larbert-Stirling-Bridge of Allan-Dunblane stops. It also does Gleneagles, yawn. To be fair, the service was extended from a Glasgow-Perth semi fast four or five years ago so they have little choice but run it like that.

My assumption was that Dunblane electrification would give us a break from this sort of short distance use when the commuter unsuitable HSTs come along. Am I wrong?

 

[Clansman]

I regularly use the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness and, yes, it's mobbed until the Larbert-Stirling-Bridge of Allan-Dunblane stops. It also does Gleneagles, yawn. To be fair, the service was extended from a Glasgow-Perth semi fast four or five years ago so they have little choice but run it like that.

My assumption was that Dunblane electrification would give us a break from this sort of short distance use when the commuter unsuitable HSTs come along. Am I wrong?

Youre right. Considering Scotrail are playing the "Intercity" card, it's pretty much fair to say that the HSTs will miss out stops. With new regular Dundee to Glasgow semi fasts running from 2018 (170 operated) theyll most likely take over diddy stations from Intercity routes such as Larbert, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Gleneagles and Invergowrie (as well as more further north).
Stirling is a contender also, considering some services run fast to Perth. The increase of both Inverness and Dundee services from 2018 will see a half hourly peak time service between Glasgow and Dundee - so providing that the HSTs cater for Stirling, the capacity will even out on the Dundee/Dunblane/Alloa services for intermediate stops. The 385s arriving also will compliment that even further.

 

[47271]

Youre right. Considering Scotrail are playing the "Intercity" card, it's pretty much fair to say that the HSTs will miss out stops. With new regular Dundee to Glasgow semi fasts running from 2018 (170 operated) theyll most likely take over diddy stations from Intercity routes such as Larbert, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Gleneagles and Invergowrie (as well as more further north).
Stirling is a contender also, considering some services run fast to Perth. The increase of both Inverness and Dundee services from 2018 will see a half hourly peak time service between Glasgow and Dundee - so providing that the HSTs cater for Stirling, the capacity will even out on the Dundee/Dunblane/Alloa services for intermediate stops. The 385s arriving also will compliment that even further.

Ah good, I thought that this would be the case.

So it's in everyone's interests for the seat layout to be less crowded and have more tables than GWR's.

To be honest I find the seats and tables in Scotrail's 170s to be just about up to long distance standards - it's other things about these trains that annoy me - so if the HSTs offer an improvement on that we'll be doing fine.

 

[route:oxford]

My assumption was that Dunblane electrification would give us a break from this sort of short distance use when the commuter unsuitable HSTs come along. Am I wrong?

That all depends on how services are diagrammed.

The opening of the Alloa route changed the provision of Dunblane services considerably.

Generally speaking you've got the "fast" direct service at xx.11 that takes around 40 minutes and the xx.22 change at Camelon or Falkirk Grahamston that takes 1h15m. So in reality you might as well wait until the next fast rather than freeze your bits off at Camelon or Falkirk.

I can't see much changing with those diagrams until electrification reaches Perth at which point there would be a benefit to running a Glasgow-Perth stopper or semi-fast (Larbert, Stirling, BofA, Dunblane, Gleneagles) thus allowing the HSTs to operate a more premium Glasgow-Stirling-Perth then onwards to Dyce or Elgin route.

 

[Clansman]

Ah good, I thought that this would be the case.

So it's in everyone's interests for the seat layout to be less crowded and have more tables than GWR's.

To be honest I find the seats and tables in Scotrail's 170s to be just about up to long distance standards - it's other things about these trains that annoy me - so if the HSTs offer an improvement on that we'll be doing fine.

I think it will in the best interests. Considering GWR are strapped for capacity on a lot, if not most services, then the high density airline seating would've probably been a last resort measure to deal with capacity. Also given the fact that the HSTs will provide double per 4 car seat than what a single 170 would, I think it's fair to say that Scotrail can get away with providing some tables. Scotrail are probably the best TOC in the sense of providing plenty of table seats, as well as seat:window alignment, so I doubt we can expect that to change when the HSTs come.

On the 170s, I also don't mind them. Considering they are more Regional/Suburban type DMUs they've done a blooming good shift up here. As passenger figures rise though, it's only right that that be catered for - so the arrival of the HSTs will bring a new lease of life to all routes in Scotland, not just Intercity.

 

[jingsmonty]

It does seem strange not to reuse the relatively new Grammer seating already fitted to FGWs' HST vehicles, especially given that, as you say, the same design of seat is fitted to refurbished class 158s, but "new seats" is what has been reported by Abellio Scotrail.

I hope not, the grammer seating is terrible...hard high backed seats with a strange pitch (like you are being forced to assume the 'crash' position!). I've travelled on a fgw hst a while ago & I had a numb posterior by the time St Austell came around!

Refurb could be done really well, but I suspect it will be done on the cheap...

 

[Clansman]

I hope not, the grammer seating is terrible...hard high backed seats with a strange pitch (like you are being forced to assume the 'crash' position!). I've travelled on a fgw hst a while ago & I had a numb posterior by the time St Austell came around!

I despise that seating. Worst legroom at a table seat I've experienced - a half our trip on one of them seats is enough to formally diagnose yourself with sciatica! Dispose of them as quickly as possible with the Pacers and be done with them.

Refurb could be done really well, but I suspect it will be done on the cheap...

Not necessarily. Abellio's success of the Scotrail franchise is probably most dependent on the HSTs. Considering they are doing a terrible job just now, Abellio are playing the 'future' card, and since they pitch to the Scottish Government during the bidding about their HST plans I can only imagine they will want to properly refurbish them to the highest standard possible - not like the Anglia refurb (which looks horrible) but more of a XC type where every thing from head to toe would be stripped and replaced to the highest standard possible.

Hopefully they are heavily invested in as stated in the plans.

 

[Butts]

Abellio are currently running a "Free" Rail Replacement Service whilst the line is being upgraded between Edinburgh and Glasgow at certain times. Services affected include Edinburgh to Dunblane and other branches Sun-Thurs Nights and early Sunday Morning.

This morning I caught the Coach from FKG to EDP leaving at 0930. I have a season ticket but people attempting to pay were being ushered onto the bus with money waved aside.

During these works having boarded the bus at Polmont, Waverley, Haymarket and Edinburgh Park no one has ever been asked to produce a ticket. The Staff are not interested on the rail or bus side.

Are tickets ever checked on Rail Replacement Bus Services ?

 

[cf111]

I have never had a ticket checked on a RRB.

 

[Mordac]

I think I did a couple of times during the Lamington related disruption, but that was only a small amount of the times I took it.

 

[me123]

Are tickets ever checked on Rail Replacement Bus Services ?

I vaguely remember this coming up previously, and being somewhat of a touchy subject for the TEs and guards.

In essence, the ticketing system is so complex that the bus driver isn't going to be able to reliably check tickets in the same way that someone from the industry does (there's little chance that they'll have even heard of the routeing guide, for example) so it's been argued on here that a guard/ticket examiner should be the only person checking tickets. Obviously a Falkirk to Edinburgh ticket would be accepted without question, but what about Coatbridge Central to Leuchars? (Perfectly valid on that route). And will they know about all the many restrictions?

Given that a bus driver can't possibly be expected to know the intricacies of the railway ticketing system, the argument then states that they shouldn't, and that any ticket checking in these scenarios should be undertaken by an appropriately trained member of rail staff.

 

[Butts]

I vaguely remember this coming up previously, and being somewhat of a touchy subject for the TEs and guards.

In essence, the ticketing system is so complex that the bus driver isn't going to be able to reliably check tickets in the same way that someone from the industry does (there's little chance that they'll have even heard of the routeing guide, for example) so it's been argued on here that a guard/ticket examiner should be the only person checking tickets. Obviously a Falkirk to Edinburgh ticket would be accepted without question, but what about Coatbridge Central to Leuchars? (Perfectly valid on that route). And will they know about all the many restrictions?

Given that a bus driver can't possibly be expected to know the intricacies of the railway ticketing system, the argument then states that they shouldn't, and that any ticket checking in these scenarios should be undertaken by an appropriately trained member of rail staff.

Well at Polmont there are two staff directing passengers to the RRB's and they do not ask to see a ticket.

ps isn't it time you replaced your Saltire with a Welsh Flag !!!

 

[Mordac]

Announcement of some extra cash from TS. Not sure how much of this is things that were already announced being announced again:

http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/...senger-comfort-and-accessibility-our-railways

Over £3 million to improve passenger comfort and accessibility on our railways

Transport Scotland have announced details of an extra £3.13 million funding for Scotland’s railways which will go towards improving passenger facilities and increasing accessibility on board trains and in stations.

The funding was awarded through the Scottish Government’s Programme for Government, announced earlier this month by the First Minister.

This investment in rail will enhance the day-to-day passenger experience on routes across the network, improving wifi coverage as well as complementing existing franchise commitments designed to boost tourism and the economy.

Specific investments will include:

• New ticket office at Blairhill station
• Ticket Vending Machines to be installed at the 10 busiest stations yet to have one.
• Upgraded air conditioning system across Class 158 trains. These will serve on Scotland’s world famous ‘scenic routes’ in the west and north Highlands as well as the Borders line from late 2018.
• Additional Passenger Counting Equipment installed on trains across the ScotRail fleet to help target overcrowding on trains.
• Upgraded wi-fi equipment and installation of tables for wheelchair areas on the new Class 385 trains introduced from Autumn 2017.

Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said:

“By investing in our public transport links, not only are we aiming to reduce the number of cars and congestion on our roads, but we’re helping cut carbon emissions and create a greener society.

“The Scottish Government is committed to making public transport a more accessible and attractive option, meaning that increasing numbers of people can use it as an alternative to car travel.

“This extra funding recognises our commitment to improving accessibility and passenger experience across the rail network. It complements the overall £5 billion investment that the Scottish Government is making in Scotland’s railways to 2019 and will mean more people will be able to take the train in greater comfort than ever before.”

ScotRail’s Managing Director Phil Verster welcomed the £3 million spend, saying:

“This investment in improving rail facilities – both on-train and around our stations – is what makes customer experience all the more positive.

“Our customers expect a wide-ranging package of services when they travel with us, from efficient methods of ticket purchase, readily available wi-fi and comfortable trains to technology and extensive station facilities. All of these improvements show we’re committed to making their rail travel enjoyable and efficient.”
Publication Date:
Mon 03/Oct/2016

 

[Blindtraveler]

The new booking office, TVMs and 158 aircon I think are new announcements, hoping the 158 AC is a new system as aposed to regassing and overhaul of current one.

 

[scotraildriver]

The new booking office, TVMs and 158 aircon I think are new announcements, hoping the 158 AC is a new system as aposed to regassing and overhaul of current one.

I'm not so sure. The current system works very very well when it works. If they can sort out why the cooling function trips out so easily then all would be well. Another all new system may bring all new issues.

 

[Eng274]

I thought the 158 air con was overhauled a couple of years ago? Is this overhauled kit really that bad again?

There's only so much that can be done on a 158 given the design and layout of the equipment, and without sapping more power from the engine.