Should the guard do the trolley?

[tempests1]

Fatality occurred at Atherstone PRIOR to us stopping at MKC. Platform staff tell passengers trains will be diverted via West Midlands. We indeed are diverted and do not stop again after MKC until Birmingham International where we caught up another train. Passengers ask guard on approach to Coventry what time will we arrive in Preston. Guard who has been sat in office says we are on time still. Passengers say but MKC said we were being diverted and would be delayed. Oh I know nothing about that says the guard. I stand up and tell the guard both where we are and also why we are being diverted. He says he will have to check as he hadn't been told of the diversion. He returns and agrees we have been diverted and will be delayed approx 40 mins. On passing Aston another passenger asks him where we are and how late we will be and he says he doesn't know the route so he will only be able to update her once we reach Stafford. I remember this clearly as I thought it astounding that a Virgin guard didn't know the West Midlands diversion given they go that way so regularly. I realise this is only one example but it does highlight my point. Ironically in this case it was the shop crew who seemed to know the diversion route better than the guard as they at least informed the passenger of the route they usually go when diverted.
I love how everyone is so critical of my argument and yet no-one has any statistical evidence of trains being more dangerous without guards. You can rubbish my argument but cannot prove your own other than "its common sense". No it's not common sense its what you'd have us believe is common sense as scaremongering protects unnecessary jobs. If anything I'd rather have a trolley person than a guard as at least in general they know the meaning of hard work and are heavily underpaid compared to ridiculously overpaid guards. They also these days tend to deal with more passenger queries than guards in my experience because they at least walk through the train periodically(or in the case of SWT Exeter trains very often)

Embers consider the following at times it has been necessary for a guard to do emergency protection when the driver has been incapacitated after an accident without the guard doing this the train may have been subject to a rear end collision with further damage to life/train/infrastructure. An example of where things can wrong is at Ais Gill on the Settle to Carlise Line in 1995 http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=152 where if the guard had done emergency protection the outcome may have been a lot different. You may say what about DOO trains not being more dangerous but are they safer? If a fire or other serious problem happened on board the guard is the first port of call for panicked and worried passengers and will coordinate an evacuation as they receive extensive training for these scenarios. To be fair this is a rail forum so of course people will disagree with your anti train staff views! As for the guard not knowing the route this is doubtful as without the required route knowledge the train would not have diverted unless the guard was been conducted, or a new guard took over. Do you know if there was a second guard? it’s all good and proper posting comments without knowing the full story as you were not a third party in the probable conversations between the Route Control/Signaller/Guard/Driver. It perhaps could be seen as a bit patronising like you are saying you know the guards role inside out when it is obvious you don’t with the postings you have made after all have you been on a Guards rules course lately?

 

[Ferret]

Fatality occurred at Atherstone PRIOR to us stopping at MKC. Platform staff tell passengers trains will be diverted via West Midlands. We indeed are diverted and do not stop again after MKC until Birmingham International where we caught up another train. Passengers ask guard on approach to Coventry what time will we arrive in Preston. Guard who has been sat in office says we are on time still. Passengers say but MKC said we were being diverted and would be delayed. Oh I know nothing about that says the guard. I stand up and tell the guard both where we are and also why we are being diverted. He says he will have to check as he hadn't been told of the diversion. He returns and agrees we have been diverted and will be delayed approx 40 mins. On passing Aston another passenger asks him where we are and how late we will be and he says he doesn't know the route so he will only be able to update her once we reach Stafford. I remember this clearly as I thought it astounding that a Virgin guard didn't know the West Midlands diversion given they go that way so regularly. I realise this is only one example but it does highlight my point. Ironically in this case it was the shop crew who seemed to know the diversion route better than the guard as they at least informed the passenger of the route they usually go when diverted.
I love how everyone is so critical of my argument and yet no-one has any statistical evidence of trains being more dangerous without guards. You can rubbish my argument but cannot prove your own other than "its common sense". No it's not common sense its what you'd have us believe is common sense as scaremongering protects unnecessary jobs. If anything I'd rather have a trolley person than a guard as at least in general they know the meaning of hard work and are heavily underpaid compared to ridiculously overpaid guards. They also these days tend to deal with more passenger queries than guards in my experience because they at least walk through the train periodically(or in the case of SWT Exeter trains very often)

Conclusions to be drawn then:

1. He knew he could say how late you'd be at Stafford when the train rejoined the booked route. So much for not knowing the diversion.

2. I'd say he was trying to save himself a load of grief by blagging. Not something I condone I'm afraid as I prefer to be honest with my punters, but he clearly felt saving himself some grief for 40 minutes was a good idea.

3. You've made an assertion but don't seem to be able to back it up with actual facts, instead trying to divert attention on to those who are pointing out the fundamental flaws in your argument.

4. You need to put that shovel down!

 

[notadriver]

I think guards are essential on main line services. They do a fantastic job. But to bring this back to the original question - perhaps they could become multi-skilled especially on intercity services which may be travelling non-stop for over an hour. Many are called train managers and as such should have the freedom to be able to choose when to help out with - for example the buffet on times of short staff. Its a bit like the hands on supermarket manager who will man the tills during busy periods ? Airline cabin crew have been mentioned. On an aircraft there are usually several with one in charge. This person doesn't normally do the trolley but is trained to if necessary. Surely airline cabin crew and train guards are similar roles - equivalent to each other? On 395s the on board manager has to 'tidy' the train after each trip. If guards were more like managers and multi-skilled I really think jobs would be safeguarded for the future.

 

[185]

I often helped out when trolley staff were stuck - one had a sprained wrist once, it's all about keeping the passengers happy, not company image.

Virgin however are a mess, and the amount of times there has been no catering (at all) is becoming worrying, seems like they are competing with XC to be as awful as possible. After all, done right, on-train catering pays for itself - I know because I ran my own small business some years ago.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see the harm in having staff multi-skilled, and paid according to the level of skills (and the importance). Any good manager should be able to do the jobs of people beneath him/her (yet the unions often get upset if they actually do).

It would be up to that person who has a range of skills to determine the importance of any of them. Clearly, we'd have some who would genuinely be unable to do 'lesser' duties, and some who would simply not want to do them at all. I can't see any way to change that, as some staff are better than others.

 

[BestWestern]

embers25 - you've had ample opportunity to share your views on the job of the Guard. Now I'd like you to share with us what your employment is, and we will pick over how we feel about your job. You could ignore this request, but of course you'll totally discredit yourself. So, over to you.

As for the original suggestion, there some practical issues to begin with. The Guard may not have the required food hygiene training, which immediately rules out the possibility of serving food. The Guard will also not have the appropriate training or knowledge of things such as stock control and rotation, the sales and cash systems used, which are in no way connected to what is used by the Guard for company revenue, and at the points where a buffet would be restocked or suchlike the Guard will be busy carrying out station duties. On an average intercity train you may have 7, 8, even 11 coaches, and despite the alleged observations of some the Guard will be slowly working through the train during the journey in the vast majority of cases - commission is a far stronger incentive for most than a copy of The Sun! Even with much time between certain station stops, there simply isn't adequate opportunity to go and stand behind the bar or wheel a trolley up the train in most cases, unless no revenue is going to be done for an entire journey.

It's also worth bearing in mind that on some services the trolley staff aren't employed by the TOC. On my trains with a trolley it's provided by Rail Gourmet, who are contracted to provide the service by the train operator. The TOC is highly unlikely to suggest that it's own staff do the job of a private contractor whom it is already paying to do the job on it's behalf. And besides that, the catering people use a different office at a different location to the traincrew depot.

If some Guards can find the time and are happy to do a bit of multitasking then fair play to them, but it's not something which is likely to become a regular occurrence, for quite a number of reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So many things wrong with this.

Thirdly, fares wouldn't go down but reducing costs, however it is done, would reduce fare increases in the future back to either RPI+1% or perhaps RPI.

No, very unlikely I'm afraid. The only priority of the Government on this front is to reduce their subsidy to the railway. It has already been said that they wish to increase the contribution from passengers in order to help them achieve this. Fares will continue to rise regardless of what cost saving measures might be introduced, in the same way as the cost of fuel constantly rises regardless of how stifled the economy is or how they Government know full well that half the population can now barely afford to travel to work.

It also needs to be pointed out that even if every Guard on the network was sacked tomorrow, the total saving would still be totally insignificant in comparison to what it costs to run the railway. This is the folly of those who think scrapping staff is the answer; it really isn't. To force DOO would mean massive expenditure on infrastructure and rolling stock modifications, substantial salary increases for Drivers who would demand - and receive - a large pay rise in exchange for the additional responsibilities, plus the prickly issue that with no Guards the revenue would fall through the floor. A network without Guards in the current day would cost a damn sight more than it does already.

 

[radamfi]

I remember being surprised when I was in Germany on an ICE in 1st Class and the lady checked my ticket and then 5 minutes later asked me if I wanted some refreshments! I remember thinking that the unions wouldn't stand for this back in the UK. She then came down the train later on delivering coffees to other passengers in the coach and taking money off them.

I was surprised, though, as I thought the Germans had strong unions.

 

[GadgetMan]

I remember being surprised when I was in Germany on an ICE in 1st Class and the lady checked my ticket and then 5 minutes later asked me if I wanted some refreshments! I remember thinking that the unions wouldn't stand for this back in the UK. She then came down the train later on delivering coffees to other passengers in the coach and taking money off them.

I was surprised, though, as I thought the Germans had strong unions.

The same happens here on some trains. On EMT services the First Class host often checks the tickets in first class and then comes back offering refreshments etc. Any ticket issues are obviously referred back to the TM to deal with.

 

[Marvin]

The guard is not there for when everything is running fine. He's there for when things start going wrong, and he's paid for that knowledge.

So if everything (else) is running fine - a situation which you say the guard is not there for - why can't the guard help out an understaffed catering trolley/shop?

 

[Michael.Y]

So if everything (else) is running fine - a situation which you say the guard is not there for - why can't the guard help out an understaffed catering trolley/shop?

Because it's not his job. End of.

Not to mention the hygiene issues. Guards handle all sorts of potentially dirty things - from people's luggage to tickets to money to the door buttons, his t-key, plus the general environment of the driving cab itself.

 

[WestCoast]

Not to mention the hygiene issues. Guards handle all sorts of potentially dirty things - from people's luggage to tickets to money to the door buttons, his t-key, plus the general environment of the driving cab itself.

There are definetly hygeine issues, but it's no different to cabin crew on an aircraft having to serve food and drinks after they've handled mucky luggage, wiped the toilets and sorted rubbish.

Difference being it is their job, and basic hygeine procedures need to be employed in many lines of work.

Of course, catering isn't the guard's role and it shouldn't become part of it.

 

[notadriver]

Because it's not his job. End of.

Not to mention the hygiene issues. Guards handle all sorts of potentially dirty things - from people's luggage to tickets to money to the door buttons, his t-key, plus the general environment of the driving cab itself.

As a coach driver - when I'm not driving I can be doing anything to cleaning up rubbish, sweeping up, to selling drinks and light snacks.

 

[AndrewP]

Thought I'd add my perspective from the other side of the coin as a catering specialist.

• Someone trained to do catering is trained for a very different role than that of a guard. Not all guards will be able to do this - even if they wanted to.
• Catering and ticket checking can go together well as they are both customer facing roles and may even be complimentary
• Vending will have been considered many times by virtually all TOCs but the problem is that machines are big and expensive, need maintaining and restocking. A commercial grade machine would take up seating space. However, a cold vending offer is technically viable in my view

I also thought that these days much of the role of a guard was similar to that of a cockpit crew on an aircraft - there to monitor and act if something goes wrong rather than be constantly doing 'stuff'

 

[Holly]

... Really...then guards are never seen sitting reading newspapers in their little offices because they are so overworked! Come on. On many trips on Virgin the guard only leaves his home to open doors and that is in several hours...clearly so overworked and underpaid!

I suspect the guards are busy working at something that isn't apparent most of the times they appear to be idle.
If they truly find themselves with time on their hands they should be slowly walking up and down the train making their presence apparent and engaging the public in polite conversation to brighten everyone's lives.
A bit like the old fashioned bobby on the beat.

The story of the guard spending time entertaining the group of disabled kids was delightful. Common sense and ordinary decency don't go unnoticed. Similarly when there is a large group of half drunken young men on their way home from whatever the guard should be hanging around their area to discourage bravado whenever it goes over the line into stupidity.

As to catering, I'm sure there is nothing stopping a guard from voluntarily lending a helping hand to his workmates if he thinks it appropriate - and most of the time it won't be! The catering job must have unskilled, as well as skilled, parts to it.

 

[Jeremy B]

I suspect the guards are busy working at something that isn't apparent most of the times they appear to be idle.
If they truly find themselves with time on their hands they should be slowly walking up and down the train making their presence apparent and engaging the public in polite conversation to brighten everyone's lives.
A bit like the old fashioned bobby on the beat.

The story of the guard spending time entertaining the group of disabled kids was delightful. Common sense and ordinary decency don't go unnoticed. Similarly when there is a large group of half drunken young men on their way home from whatever the guard should be hanging around their area to discourage bravado whenever it goes over the line into stupidity.

As to catering, I'm sure there is nothing stopping a guard from voluntarily lending a helping hand to his workmates if he thinks it appropriate - and most of the time it won't be! The catering job must have unskilled, as well as skilled, parts to it.

Reminds me of my neighbours journey a few weeks ago when they arrived for the train at Kings Cross to find the football fans travelling. Whilst no trouble happened they were most comforted by the visable presence of the police & the guard patrolling the train & didnt feel as though they were being left to fend for themselves.

 

[34D]

Usual pish I see. This place really is so predictable nowadays. DOO this, Bob Crow that, unions bad, staff lazy, etc etc etc.

Absolutely. I see very little difference between a bus conductor and a guard. I also see very little difference between train driver and coach driver - and I've done both and got the t-shirt for both.

Both (drivers) have to know their traction and know their route - and regardless of speed I'd suggest that better reactions are needed to respond with stationary traffic ahead when doing 62mph than when my TPWS applies itself to tell me there's a danger signal ahead.

The only difference between the two is the way ASLEF and RMT treat the train driver as some mythical being.

 

[spacehopper]

Absolutely. I see very little difference between a bus conductor and a guard. I also see very little difference between train driver and coach driver - and I've done both and got the t-shirt for both.

If there is such little difference between a bus conductor and a train guard then why do TOCs, RSSB, HMRI etc place so much on the role of the guard? I'm sure bus conductors whose main role was to collect fares never got continually assessed and were subject to a bi-annual rules exam on the bus conductors rule book, route and traction knowledge. Same goes for those coach drivers.

You must be very popular down your local branch.

 

[embers25]

I suspect the guards are busy working at something that isn't apparent most of the times they appear to be idle.
If they truly find themselves with time on their hands they should be slowly walking up and down the train making their presence apparent and engaging the public in polite conversation to brighten everyone's lives.
A bit like the old fashioned bobby on the beat.

I totally agree...they should be like bobbys patrolling when not working...ie conducting safety walks for their oh so important safety role! The problem is that in the past the guards hid in one of the cabs and so weren't as visible so could get away with laziness. Now they have offices in the main carriages so are very visible and their unbelievable laziness is even more visible. On Virgin they can normally be found reading newspapers or chatting with shop staff. On SWT often found doing the crossword. On SWT 159's they are locked in the back cab but can be seen when they go to open doors putting their paper down. Otherwise they sit with the trolley person (after the trolley person has finished working) and the spare driver in first class chatting. It's not one off experience it's 90% of the frequent times I travel. As for the Virgin guard the day of the diversion, when not dealing with the couple of queries (which I ended up solving for him anyway as he was so lost) he spent the rest of the time chatting to the shop staff from his office and was completely visible so I do know for sure what he wasn't doing. The fact is whether you agree or disagree with me on guards being needed you certainly cannot claim, as some have, that guards are always busy except on stopping services. Virgin guards particularly have very little to do on the non-stop Euston to Warrington bit and are very good at doing nothing except chat. I understand it is your livelihood but in every job I have worked in roles become superfluous due to technological advance and a guard certainly is no longer needed nd no one has produced any cold hard figures proving otherwise...including the RMT.
One last thing on the pathetic hygiene argument for not helping. It is a well known fact that money is one of the dirtiest things to handle and trolley staff handle that all the time, more than guards. To follow strict hygiene rules they should wear disposable gloves to handle any food but given the food is all prepacked it is not seen as an issue so a guard could quiet easily help if they weren't so lazy and so stuck in their "jobsworth" attitude.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there is such little difference between a bus conductor and a train guard then why do TOCs, RSSB, HMRI etc place so much on the role of the guard? I'm sure bus conductors whose main role was to collect fares never got continually assessed and were subject to a bi-annual rules exam on the bus conductors rule book, route and traction knowledge. Same goes for those coach drivers.

You must be very popular down your local branch.

Well of course he wouldn't be as the RMT have to maintain this idea that train guards are so vital to maintain both their jobs and pay levels and thus union dues. The RMT do a very good job on that front of putting guards on a pedestal that quite frankly they don't deserve. The sooner we go DOO nationwide the better. If we can't fire all guards they should be redeployed on the MUCH lower pay of station staff checking tickets, manning booking offices, helping people get to platforms etc. If they all actually worked as station assistants they'd really just how cushy they have life and they could watch trains leave safely and guardless all day long. It would be a reality check but would increase station staffing levels making the railway safer...more safe than with guards on the trains reading papers.

 

[jon0844]

Vending will have been considered many times by virtually all TOCs but the problem is that machines are big and expensive, need maintaining and restocking. A commercial grade machine would take up seating space. However, a cold vending offer is technically viable in my view

A TOC would merely outsource the running of the machines, thus making someone else (e.g. Selecta) responsible for installing, cleaning, repairing and restocking them.

On the many foreign trains I've been on with them, they take up little room as they can be placed near doors and where there's an open space (to allow people to consume things, or for standing when it's very busy).

 

[Ferret]

Still not put the shovel down Embers! The notion that the Guard was 'lost' is bordering on libellous. I think you need to grow up quite honestly.

 

[Captain Chaos]

This thread is absurd!

I work as a guard based in Reading. We work local trains, between Reading and Basingstoke, the North Downs Line and the Marlow Branch.

The Marlow Branch is rather unusual in the sense that we have responsibility for setting the points and obtaining the token/staff in order to proceed.

On earlies I average takings of £700 - £1000 per day depending on the turn I have etc. On Lates I can average about £150 - £200 per day (except weekends when I can make up to £500 Fri/Sat.

The East Region combined (that's Paddington, Worcester, Slough, Reading and Oxford) take in Circa £1m per period. This is revenue taken on-board trains. Where is this money going to come from if there is no-one to collect it? What company can afford to allow £1m to just walk through the door? None. No company in their right mind would do such a thing. On the routes I sign most of the stations are unstaffed, unbarriered and a fair few without ticket vending facilities. So without us on the train where are these people going to buy their tickets? They probably aren't.

And before we say barriers are the answer, that is a lie. They give the impression they protect revenue. They do protect it. To a certain extent. But I have lost count the number of times a person boarding at Blackwater or Farnborough North going to Reading boards the train. Train is too busy and can't get to them in time. Reading is barriered. Excellent, they'll buy a ticket. Which they do. From Earley/Wokingham. So although money is collected, it's not the right amount. So barriers aren't really a solution or a replacement. They work, but not very well.

Then we come to the 'lazy' guards bit. I agree. There are lazy guards. There are also a hell of a lot more hard-working ones. To say that we should be sacked because there are some lazy people amongst us is retarded. You get lazy people in all work environments FFS! If we had to sack every person in every industry because there are lazy people there then there would be no-one left employed!

This thread has no logic to it, and is just going to go round and round in circles.

I don't know what embers problem is with us. But it's quite clear he hates us. VERY clear indeed. So my Question is: What the hell have I done to deserve the sack embers?

EDIT: My apologies, I forgot to add Redhill to that list of depots.

 

[embers25]

Still not put the shovel down Embers! The notion that the Guard was 'lost' is bordering on libellous. I think you need to grow up quite honestly.

Still not seen anyone produce actual facts yet that guards do result in a better safety record. That would seem quite important given the only way to justify a guard is on flawed safety grounds.
I read those manuals..even the extra non-applicable and duplicate ones that were posted to make it look like there were more manuals than there are. All very fascinating but many jobs have role descriptions and guidelines (which is what those manuals amounted to) more detailed than those and yet those roles were eliminated just like a guard should be. Without the unions the guard would already be on the way out and quite right too. A huge waste of money and a large reason why our railway is one of the most expensive in the world.

As for the fGW guard...I have done numerous trips on the North Downs Line where the guard has just sat in the cab. I agree some do work but particularly on long non-stop sections such as Euston to Warrington to claim that a guard is busy the whole time as some have is frankly ludicrous. Also if you are so tied up in collecting fares that does diminish your apparently critical role as safety guy. I agree with on train revenue collection where necessary but it certainly isn't necessary everywhere and barriers do help...just ask SWT. Ticket machines, barriers and proper enforcement of penalty fares does significantly reduce revenue loss. Also if you were just checking tickets not doing the doors at all or anything else you would cover more of the train preventing revenue loss so clearly a ticket checker is what is needed and they are paid less than guards thereby saving us all money. Similarly I whole heartedly disagree with guard commission as why should they get commission for basically doing what is a basic part of their already overpaid job.

 

[spacehopper]

Like I said before- what would you have us do!

So because a train runs non-stop for 2 hours we are automatically lazy.

Would you say a nurse is lazy just sat behind nurses station because no patient needs medical attention.

What about a copper just sat in his patrol car picking his nose not arresting anyone so guess he is lazy too.

We all know firemen have some impressive gyms in their fire stations, is firemen sam being lazy because there aren't any fires.

I'm sure all people in control are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for phone to ring.

So I guess a worker is lazy if they aren't jumping up and down and never touch a seat.

Here is me thinking I'm employed by a TOC and not the RMT.

Don't they already employ station assistants? But I guess if they are only despatching one train an hour and spend the other 59 minutes reading a paper then they too are lazy and should be got rid off? I've done both jobs and they are by no means "cushy". When I was on platforms I found work load lighter but it was still hard work when job was up a height and I had to deal with more undesirables on station then on train. Beggars in the subway, junkies over dosing in toilets, homeless sleeping on station, the bloke that attacked me with a crow bar.

It would be nice to have 2 hours to read the paper the longest non stop section I have is 20 minutes. Some of my diagrams have over a 100 stops, minutes between stations, majority unstaffed so constantly flogging tickets. 5 minute turn around then back out again. After 5 and half hours then I can put my feet up for 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes I'm sure I have enough time to cook some hot food, go to the toilet and recharge my batteries before I do it all again for another 4 hours are so.

Come home to my wife and I'm knackered, feet swelled up, you should smell my work shoes. Goodness knows how many miles I've walked up and down trains I've worked. I don't work for GBrf Eurotunnel I'm not making £70K a year. My actual take home pay a year is £15,000. If you think that is excessive pay I'd love you to tell me what a glorified kit-kat seller should be earning.

I enjoy my job- I'm sure majority of my passengers appreciate level of service and safety I provide. It is no piece of cake and I have more pish on this forum then I do on my trains. I still wouldn't want to do anything else and I'm sure despite best efforts of jealous, biased few I will continue to do so.

 

[1D53]

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever read.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Still not seen anyone produce actual facts yet that guards do result in a better safety record. That would seem quite important given the only way to justify a guard is on flawed safety grounds.
I read those manuals..even the extra non-applicable and duplicate ones that were posted to make it look like there were more manuals than there are. All very fascinating but many jobs have role descriptions and guidelines (which is what those manuals amounted to) more detailed than those and yet those roles were eliminated just like a guard should be. Without the unions the guard would already be on the way out and quite right too. A huge waste of money and a large reason why our railway is one of the most expensive in the world.

Embers, you would save vast amounts more money by banning ROSCO's and letting the DFT just dish out rolling stock on a per franchise basis. There isn't any purpose to a ROSCO apart from draining money from the system.

Perhaps your ire would be best targeted at huge wastes of money like ROSCO's first that bring no value to the system apart from draining money before targetting those that do bring money and value to the system.

If you would like to sample a typical Guarded train v a DOO train you are most welcome to accompany me and I will show you what the true difference is. My local line is the Reading - Bedwyn line. It's DOO. And it's bloody terrible. You can ride with me if you'd like. Then you will see why quite a few of the regulars prefer to travel on the guarded HST's instead of the DOO Turbo's.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever read.

I find a certain persons views ridiculous, and bordering on the offensive, still if it makes that person feel important for 5 minutes so be it lol

 

[tempests1]

Embers produce actual facts to show they don't improve safety!

 

[Captain Chaos]

As for the fGW guard...I have done numerous trips on the North Downs Line where the guard has just sat in the cab. I agree some do work but particularly on long non-stop sections such as Euston to Warrington to claim that a guard is busy the whole time as some have is frankly ludicrous. Also if you are so tied up in collecting fares that does diminish your apparently critical role as safety guy. I agree with on train revenue collection where necessary but it certainly isn't necessary everywhere and barriers do help...just ask SWT. Ticket machines, barriers and proper enforcement of penalty fares does significantly reduce revenue loss. Also if you were just checking tickets not doing the doors at all or anything else you would cover more of the train preventing revenue loss so clearly a ticket checker is what is needed and they are paid less than guards thereby saving us all money. Similarly I whole heartedly disagree with guard commission as why should they get commission for basically doing what is a basic part of their already overpaid job.

Like I said. You get good ones and bad ones.

BTW, you do realise that we have just hired some of these 'ticket checkers' for the North Downs Line to assist us don't you? They are RPI's. And they get considerably more money than I do. Your solution does not save money. It costs more.

And my main reason for focussing on Revenue is because I am from a Revenue background. I used to do Revenue Protection before deciding to become a Guard and play a more active role within the running of the railway. If you think RPO's and RPI's are the solution I am afraid you are highly delusional. The PF scheme is not a deterrent. We have a PF scheme operating on most of my routes and I still take vast sums of money. You also forget that with a PF scheme comes the administrative costs required to run it efficiently, the Appeals system, and lots of other little things that all add up.

Here's the problem Embers. I could come up with all the proof of how useful we are and how much money we bring in. I could present official company accounts, details of our prosecutions etc. (I wouldn't be allowed to do this as it is confidential but you get the point). It doesn't matter. You aren't going to listen. Are you? I mean if you feel that RPI's are the way forward then crack on fella. Because I would have no trouble taking home their salary. I might even buy you a pint for giving me my generous pay rise...

EDIT: Just for clarity: I was an RPO, which was slightly lower pay than as a Guard. However that was many years ago now and an RPO salary is about the same. An RPI is more.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think I'm calling troll now as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think I'm calling troll now as well.

Me too. It was good while it lasted.