Should the guard do the trolley?

[embers25]

Like I said. You get good ones and bad ones.

BTW, you do realise that we have just hired some of these 'ticket checkers' for the North Downs Line to assist us don't you? They are RPI's. And they get considerably more money than I do. Your solution does not save money. It costs more.

Fair enough I can accept I am wrong here then. So guards on some more local routes have revenue purposes but still no justification on other longer distance routes such as West Coast/East Coast and certainly no evidence of their importance in safety.

 

[CarterUSM]

I think I'm calling troll now as well.

Bit slow for you Ralph! I seen it coming when I seen the thread title(no offence to the OP whatsoever!) I just wasn't sure who it would be.

 

[175001]

Opening doors...serving coffee...closing doors...serving juice...getting the ramp out for a wheelchair...warming up a bacon roll...phoning control to arrange someone to meet my train with a ramp on arrival...restocking beer shelf...checking tickets...serving tea...Unpaid Fares Notice...serving cola...dealing with fault on unit...selling sarnies...phoning control to inform of fault...more coffee...AND if the worst comes, emergency train protection....The new day in a life of a Guard..........hmm.

 

[notadriver]

Bit slow for you Ralph! I seen it coming when I seen the thread title(no offence to the OP whatsoever!) I just wasn't sure who it would be.

Boo I didn't see it coming. I thought it was a good idea but only in exceptional circumstances on intercity services with long distances between stops.

 

[34D]

Opening doors...serving coffee...closing doors...serving juice...getting the ramp out for a wheelchair...warming up a bacon roll...phoning control to arrange someone to meet my train with a ramp on arrival...restocking beer shelf...checking tickets...serving tea...Unpaid Fares Notice...serving cola...dealing with fault on unit...selling sarnies...phoning control to inform of fault...more coffee...AND if the worst comes, emergency train protection....The new day in a life of a Guard..........hmm.

You forgot the pulling buckeye chains without gloves right before stretching pizza dough

 

[jon0844]

On the Danish Intercity train from Esbjerg to Copenhagen, the TM/guard was serving/bringing tea and coffee (plus oranges and other sweets) to us in first class, checking tickets, issuing tickets, giving us Wi-Fi code vouchers, all while then doing door duties and even joining up another train half away along (the trains having the cab 'folding in' to allow you to walk through).

That was certainly multi-skilled!

It CAN be done. I have no idea how much they are paid, however.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Yes, but, in Europe and Scandinavia, things are done, and run, differently. DSB is an Independent Public Company owned by the Danish Ministry of Transport, so, it's still run by the State, not like in this country, and I would think the salary matches performance, which, considering Denmark's higher standard of living being greater than over here, would be eye watering to some of us mere mortals.

And as to the OP, I know many guards who would lap up the chance to push the trolley up and down the train all day long, and many others, who wouldn't raise their finger to help, I don't know what Bob Crow would say to all this.......LOL

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[bb21]

I think you have some very valid points, such as the potential for technological advancement to automate many of the functions that a guard has, however the way your arguments were presented meant that they were rather buried underneath a general rant about the role of guards, which inevitably caught more attention.

While you claim that people on the opposite side of your arguments have failed to put forward convincing proofs, I, like many others, also fail to see how you have put forward concrete proofs that guards are unnecessary.

I totally agree...they should be like bobbys patrolling when not working...ie conducting safety walks for their oh so important safety role!

Yes, I agree with you on this and I believe that it is what the majority of guards do, or at least they did based on my observations.

The problem is that in the past the guards hid in one of the cabs and so weren't as visible so could get away with laziness.

Is there a credible source for this statement or is it purely an accusation?

Now they have offices in the main carriages so are very visible and their unbelievable laziness is even more visible. On Virgin they can normally be found reading newspapers or chatting with shop staff. On SWT often found doing the crossword. On SWT 159's they are locked in the back cab but can be seen when they go to open doors putting their paper down. Otherwise they sit with the trolley person (after the trolley person has finished working) and the spare driver in first class chatting. It's not one off experience it's 90% of the frequent times I travel.

As with all professions, there are bad apples, however it is ridiculous to generalise from a small sample.

I very much doubt that 90% is a statement of fact, even based on your own observations. To be honest I would be very shocked if that percentage is anywhere near even 50%, and you will see that too if you kept a detailed log of every single journey that you do.

The way our mind works is that we do not remember instances where what we see conforms to our own expectations or agrees with our own opinions, whatever they might be. We remember the bad ones, those that we don't agree with, those that don't conform to our expectations and the more this happens, the more exaggerated, as a proportion, it becomes in our own minds.

Furthermore what would you think of a guard who has performed all his duties (safety, revenue, etc) and is now sitting down for a 5-minute break in his cab, while the catering department is fully staffed. Is he therefore being lazy in your opinion? If so, please tell me how often do you just sit/stand there idle during one shift in your job?

As for the Virgin guard the day of the diversion, when not dealing with the couple of queries (which I ended up solving for him anyway as he was so lost) he spent the rest of the time chatting to the shop staff from his office and was completely visible so I do know for sure what he wasn't doing. The fact is whether you agree or disagree with me on guards being needed you certainly cannot claim, as some have, that guards are always busy except on stopping services. Virgin guards particularly have very little to do on the non-stop Euston to Warrington bit and are very good at doing nothing except chat. I understand it is your livelihood but in every job I have worked in roles become superfluous due to technological advance and a guard certainly is no longer needed nd no one has produced any cold hard figures proving otherwise...including the RMT.

So how about being constructive and informing Virgin of such a poor standard of performance by one of their staff so that he can be trained to perform to a higher standard?

Yes, new technology might be able to carry out some of the tasks that a guard does, however we're a long way off from being that far ahead for various reasons that have been mentioned.

Why do you think that aeroplanes still need co-pilots? Why do ships need First Officers?

One last thing on the pathetic hygiene argument for not helping. It is a well known fact that money is one of the dirtiest things to handle and trolley staff handle that all the time, more than guards. To follow strict hygiene rules they should wear disposable gloves to handle any food but given the food is all prepacked it is not seen as an issue so a guard could quiet easily help if they weren't so lazy and so stuck in their "jobsworth" attitude.

I agree that the hygiene argument doesn't hold much water, however many people, even guards, have agreed with you that they would be very willing to help, when they have finished with their other duties, if short-staffed in the catering department.

I don't know what your job is, but imagine for a moment that you're the CEO of a multi-national corporation, would you be happy to be told to go and clean the toilet whenever you sit there idle for 5 minutes? If not, why?

I fail to see how the word "jobsworth" is any relevant here other than the fact that you wanted to have a rant at the guards in general.

Well of course he wouldn't be as the RMT have to maintain this idea that train guards are so vital to maintain both their jobs and pay levels and thus union dues. The RMT do a very good job on that front of putting guards on a pedestal that quite frankly they don't deserve.

Why do they not deserve it? Guards are not particularly well paid. Words like over-paid are meaningless as people's opinion differs wildly. The way I see it is that no one is over-paid, because if an employer deems a position to be worthwhile having, then that employee is worth every penny he/she is paid. If a job exists, then it has its value. If guards are really that unnecessary, do you not think that the profit-chasing TOCs would have just ignored those empty threats of strikes and sacked the lot?

The sooner we go DOO nationwide the better. If we can't fire all guards they should be redeployed on the MUCH lower pay of station staff checking tickets, manning booking offices, helping people get to platforms etc. If they all actually worked as station assistants they'd really just how cushy they have life and they could watch trains leave safely and guardless all day long. It would be a reality check but would increase station staffing levels making the railway safer...more safe than with guards on the trains reading papers.

If it really is as simple as you suggest then why do you think it has not happened?

I'm sorry but like many others have said, I seriously struggle to see the value of much of what you have said.

 

[BestWestern]

@ embers25 -

You have, rather unsurprisingly, failed to reply to the question I asked you in my last post.

You've already proved yourself to be a frothing wibbler, with quite possibly the biggest chip on your shoulder that many of us are likely to have encountered on here for quite some time - and yes, that is quite a statement - but before I also write you off as a coward, I will ask you again. What is your job role please?

I have never been a fan of biased one sided arguments, and as you clearly have such a high ground from which you can inform so many of us that our jobs are utterly worthless, it is only fair that we are put in the picture as to what it is that you do.

A truthful answer would be preferred.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Bit slow for you Ralph! I seen it coming when I seen the thread title(no offence to the OP whatsoever!) I just wasn't sure who it would be.

Well, I thought I don't recognise the username so let's give him a chance. Clearly I was mistaken!

 

[tirphil]

sounds like a Troll to me..btw Train fare rises the government pockets the RMT "members like myself" certainly do not! you certainly have zero idea what the guards role is, maybe you should spend a few hours reading the rule book, learning traction, learning the routes and them tickets and customer service, takes about 3 months on average, you ask the majority of DOO drivers what they prefer, with or without a guard, the majority would easily say WITH.

I've driven DOO but currently work trains with guards. I prefer working with a guard. It is reassuring to know that there is someone else on board to assist and who knows exactly what to do in the event of an emergency.

 

[embers25]

While you claim that people on the opposite side of your arguments have failed to put forward convincing proofs, I, like many others, also fail to see how you have put forward concrete proofs that guards are unnecessary.

It was the guards who claimed their role was too busy to help elsewhere and the guards who claimedtheir role was safety critical and yet these same guards and their union are unable to provide any evidence at all to back up this claim

"Furthermore what would you think of a guard who has performed all his duties (safety, revenue, etc) and is now sitting down for a 5-minute break in his cab, while the catering department is fully staffed. Is he therefore being lazy in your opinion? If so, please tell me how often do you just sit/stand there idle during one shift in your job?"

The phrase "If you have time to lean you have time to clean" springs to mind...On West Coast for example, instead of employing cleaners to pick up rubbish and tidy the trani between Carlisle and Glasgow why couldn't that money be saved and use the guard as the guard does not have an hours worth of jobs to do in that section ever.

"Why do you think that aeroplanes still need co-pilots? Why do ships need First Officers?"

Because they ARE safety critical positions and can take oevr the running of the plane/ship if needed. A guard cannot and would not.

"I agree that the hygiene argument doesn't hold much water, however many people, even guards, have agreed with you that they would be very willing to help, when they have finished with their other duties, if short-staffed in the catering department."

Actually this thread began with guards claiming they were too busy and too safety critical to help and continued with them basically saying they wouldn't lower themselves to work on the trolley. Then the trolley staff on here rightly took offence given they work MUCH harder for MUCH less money so they backed down not wanting to offend fellow railstaff even though the guards clearly from their posts considered them a lower class.

"If a job exists, then it has its value. If guards are really that unnecessary, do you not think that the profit-chasing TOCs would have just ignored those empty threats of strikes and sacked the lot?"

Just because a job exists does not by any means ensure it has value and cannot be done better by less or no staff. Also TOC's are still scared of the RMT and so wouldn't pick that fight as they would have a full driver and guard strike on their hands because the RMT would see their very existance threatened.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So what do you do for a job embers25?

 

[Marvin]

many people, even guards, have agreed with you that they would be very willing to help, when they have finished with their other duties, if short-staffed in the catering department.

That is quite right and proper, and it's all the OP was asking for.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes Embers what do you do exactly? we are all dying to know as you obviously have so much knowledge of how the railway works.

 

[BestWestern]

Hmm, still no reply to the crucial question then :roll:

What a surprise. Somehow I have a feeling that the elusive job role of Mr embers will remain a mystery to us all. Doubtless though it is vital to the continued rotation of planet earth...

 

[GadgetMan]

He's the Prime Minister.

In between meetings he polishes the knob on number 10's front door and replenishes the drinks cabinet after sweeping downing street clean.

 

[Yew]

You mean you want to know what his job is so that you can can launch a barrage of personal insults...

 

[PaxVobiscum]

So what do you do for a job embers25?

PA to the Mountain King?

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes Embers what do you do exactly? we are all dying to know as you obviously have so much knowledge of how the railway works.

Maybe embers is Roy McNulty?

 

[GadgetMan]

You mean you want to know what his job is so that you can can launch a barrage of personal insults...

Don't worry they won't be personal to him. They'll be insulting every single person in that profession regardless of how hard they work to earn their wage.

 

[Nonsense]

I don't know what your job is, but imagine for a moment that you're the CEO of a multi-national corporation, would you be happy to be told to go and clean the toilet whenever you sit there idle for 5 minutes? If not, why?

The CEO of a multinational will be surrounded by opportunist sycophants only too keen to ensure that the toilets are spotless all of the time. If that wasn't the case though, and the CEO's role was extended to toilet cleaning, he/she has the same rights and opportunity as the menial rail staff to say "no, I don't want to clean toilets, therefore I shall go work elsewhere and leave behind me the opportunity for someone else to do the job I no longer wish to do"

Edited to add. The CEO of a multinational corporation will never ever be sat idle for five minutes.

 

[AndrewP]

A TOC would merely outsource the running of the machines, thus making someone else (e.g. Selecta) responsible for installing, cleaning, repairing and restocking them.

Agreed but even so its difficult to make a profit from vending - in most cases (except where managed by a catering option on the same site and the machine is purchased) they are provided as an amenity rather than a money maker.

On the many foreign trains I've been on with them, they take up little room as they can be placed near doors and where there's an open space (to allow people to consume things, or for standing when it's very busy).

I'd envisage that they'd have been designed in then - my key point (badly expressed) was that there is more to putting a vending machine in than meets the eye.

 

[reb0118]

Like I said before- what would you have us do!

So because a train runs non-stop for 2 hours we are automatically lazy.

Would you say a nurse is lazy just sat behind nurses station because no patient needs medical attention.

What about a copper just sat in his patrol car picking his nose not arresting anyone so guess he is lazy too.

We all know firemen have some impressive gyms in their fire stations, is firemen sam being lazy because there aren't any fires.

I'm sure all people in control are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for phone to ring.

So I guess a worker is lazy if they aren't jumping up and down and never touch a seat.

Here is me thinking I'm employed by a TOC and not the RMT.

Don't they already employ station assistants? But I guess if they are only despatching one train an hour and spend the other 59 minutes reading a paper then they too are lazy and should be got rid off? I've done both jobs and they are by no means "cushy". When I was on platforms I found work load lighter but it was still hard work when job was up a height and I had to deal with more undesirables on station then on train. Beggars in the subway, junkies over dosing in toilets, homeless sleeping on station, the bloke that attacked me with a crow bar.

It would be nice to have 2 hours to read the paper the longest non stop section I have is 20 minutes. Some of my diagrams have over a 100 stops, minutes between stations, majority unstaffed so constantly flogging tickets. 5 minute turn around then back out again. After 5 and half hours then I can put my feet up for 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes I'm sure I have enough time to cook some hot food, go to the toilet and recharge my batteries before I do it all again for another 4 hours are so.

Come home to my wife and I'm knackered, feet swelled up, you should smell my work shoes. Goodness knows how many miles I've walked up and down trains I've worked. I don't work for GBrf Eurotunnel I'm not making £70K a year. My actual take home pay a year is £15,000. If you think that is excessive pay I'd love you to tell me what a glorified kit-kat seller should be earning.

I enjoy my job- I'm sure majority of my passengers appreciate level of service and safety I provide. It is no piece of cake and I have more pish on this forum then I do on my trains. I still wouldn't want to do anything else and I'm sure despite best efforts of jealous, biased few I will continue to do so.

Top post!

 

[313103]

You mean you want to know what his job is so that you can can launch a barrage of personal insults...

Well why not! I mean its alright for others to give us a barage of insults. But it would be nice for my questions to be answered otherwise i will have to think that he is a troll!

I do see the irony of your question now.

 

[jon0844]

1008532[/URL]]I'd envisage that they'd have been designed in then - my key point (badly expressed) was that there is more to putting a vending machine in than meets the eye.

It wouldn't be hard to remove some seats and create an open area on any existing train, but it would likely prove unpopular as the number of seats would be reduced - and even the DfT may have a thing or two to say about that.

However, I am sure that for every person that might be upset to lose 4 or 8 seats (or whatever), there would be others quite happy to know they could get a cup of tea, a bottle of water or a packet of crisps etc.

It would also be good if they were set to take credit cards and/or smartcards (maybe NFC enabled mobiles in the future, plus of course contact less cards - which most people will have in the next year or so, when they get a replacement credit or debit card) - which would reduce the need for cash (and often correct change) which would in turn reduce the cash held in the machines - useful for reducing theft.

In fact, given how most people probably have a debit card and will soon get a contact less one by default, why not install them to be card ONLY, which does away with any incentive to break in and steal the cashbox.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Well why not! I mean its alright for others to give us a barage of insults. But it would be nice for my questions to be answered otherwise i will have to think that he is a troll!

I do see the irony of your question now.

As the old saying goes...

What's good for the goose....

 

[Urban Gateline]

Can I join the line of people who want to find out what embers25 does career-wise?

 

[martin2345uk]

Maybe he failed the guards assessments twice, would explain his apparent hatred towards guards :-/

 

[embers25]

Wow such interest...kinda sad really....maybe thats actually because none of you have managed to justify your existence (with the possible exception of the fGW guard) within 10 full pages of posts!!! I would have posted a reply to the barrage of hate sooner but unlike guards I don't get breaks to sit around and chat all day at work...some of us out there actually work whilst on the clock. You should try it some time! Anyway clearly without having ANY evidence to back up your claims of being so safety critical you all find it more fun to hurl abuse (glad to see Bob Crow's approach to things is followed by his members!). All rather pathetic really. You all say I should justify my comments but I was responding to your bold claims about being too overworked and safety critical to help lowly trolley staff neither of which you have proved.
It is VERY noticeable on here that whenever anyone questions the role or ability of any railway staff they get abuse hurled their way regardless of facts. Kind of sums up why so many have such a negative view of rail staff. *sigh* I give up you all continue to live in your delusional world of self importance rather than reality.