Do I have any right to keep my train ticket after the journey?

[muz379]

I assume you are being facetious when saying why not pick some tickets up off the floor ... if you submit a load of expenses for tickets that have no relevance to where you're travelling from/to on your defined expenses then of course accounts will pick up or you won't get paid when they are cross-checked. Have you ever had to claim on expenses?

Then again, let's flip that round and using the example of my SWT receipt from the ticket machine, how can I prove that I have made journey x and bought the ticket that I have required in line with expenses policy if the receipt is so vague?

Why not just do as other countries do and just endorse the ticket when you exit the transit system (if, say it is a single)?

Problem solved - the ticket collectors of the world can rejoice, and those that need to keep tickets to claim expenses can do so.

Im not being facetious . Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station X . And sit next to someone who got on a stop earlier at a manned station but gets off at the same station as you. Now because the conductor for whatever reason does not come through you have had no opportunity to buy a ticket .

Back to the person sitting next to you . Because they no longer have any use for it they leave their ticket on the table . There is nothing to stop you picking this up , claiming expenses and getting paid out if all your accounts department needs is a ticket that is relevant to the journey you are making .

Im not saying you could get away with picking up a load of random tickets and submit them . But there are always loads of discarded tickets on the floor on trains , stations etc . sure someone could find one that is relevant to their expenses .

I have had to claim expenses before yes . although the accounts department in the company I worked for was satisfied with a receipt from a booking office or a printed invoice from buying tickets online . simply listing the stations traveled between and the price . That after all is actually more proof of purchase than the possession of a ticket itself .

As for the policy being what it is . I as you say will usually simply endorse tickets as used , have never had reason to withdraw somebodies ticket . However If I suspect the ticket is fake or the person is up to no good I need to be able to withdraw that ticket with no arguments . Having a policy that allows people to retain tickets would make this incredibly hard .

 

[Howardh]

Oxford Road spits back the outward portion back at you - I presume this is because it can still be used on the centre trams - even though Oxford Rd is some distance from the nearest tram stop?

Wish it would take them instead so I don't have to search for a bin (the one outside Sainsbury's is ALWAYS overflowing....grrrr!!!

 

[MKB]

I'm very surprised you have to provide tickets in order to claim on expenses.

My employer too insists on, not just receipts, but also actual train tickets when claiming expenses. They also require all tickets to be booked through the corporate travel agent, even though that frequently results in more expensive tickets being bought because they insist the cheaper ones don't exist on their system.

I know my employer -- with a US-based head office -- is particularly worried about employees deriving any personal benefit from expensed items and their failing to declare a personal tax liability. Maybe that's an American thing, and maybe that's why they want tickets handed in case they've only been part used.

 

[Hadders]

My employer too insists on, not just receipts, but also actual train tickets when claiming expenses. They also require all tickets to be booked through the corporate travel agent, even though that frequently results in more expensive tickets being bought because they insist the cheaper ones don't exist on their system.

I know my employer -- with a US-based head office -- is particularly worried about employees deriving any personal benefit from expensed items and their failing to declare a personal tax liability. Maybe that's an American thing, and maybe that's why they want tickets handed in case they've only been part used.

That's ridiculous. If you drive on a work appointment how do you claim that? You could submit a petrol receipt but that doesn't prove that you made the journey you are claiming.

As has been previously said it seems that your employer is applying a higher threshold to rail expenses than to other ones.

 

[najaB]

My employer too insists on, not just receipts, but also actual train tickets when claiming expenses. They also require all tickets to be booked through the corporate travel agent, even though that frequently results in more expensive tickets being bought because they insist the cheaper ones don't exist on their system.

I guess I'm lucky then... my employer only insists that tickets are bought through the travel portal 'whenever possible' as they recognise that it's not always possible. Regardless of if the tickets are bought through the portal or at the station, they only require a receipt, though they will accept the ticket as well.

I know my employer -- with a US-based head office -- is particularly worried about employees deriving any personal benefit from expensed items and their failing to declare a personal tax liability. Maybe that's an American thing, and maybe that's why they want tickets handed in case they've only been part used.

Reductio ad absurdum, I'm surprised they when you claim a meal on expenses that they don't require a stool sample!

 

[maniacmartin]

My employer is happy to accept Oyster Usage Printouts from the ticket office with the relevant journeys highlighted.

 

[island]

Oxford Road spits back the outward portion back at you - I presume this is because it can still be used on the centre trams - even though Oxford Rd is some distance from the nearest tram stop?

Wish it would take them instead so I don't have to search for a bin (the one outside Sainsbury's is ALWAYS overflowing....grrrr!!!

I would expect the vast majority of tickets to Manchester Oxford Road will have been issued to Manchester CTLZ or Manchester Stns, in each event meaning they retain validity to (at least and depending on direction) Deansgate G-MEX and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[drbdrb]

Where the contract for travel by rail only, it is from one station to another, there is nothing to suggest that the journey is to the gateline, though Compulsory Ticket Areas would require you to hold the ticket until the gateline.

So I can throw my ticket away as soon as I get to my destination station before passing through the barrier. How do I now get through the barrier?

 

[island]

So I can throw my ticket away as soon as I get to my destination station before passing through the barrier. How do I now get through the barrier?

Applying common sense is better than setting word traps for people.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So I can throw my ticket away as soon as I get to my destination station before passing through the barrier. How do I now get through the barrier?

You can can throw it away if you want to, ultimately it's you that has the problem if you can't get out the barriers.

 

[drbdrb]

Why would there be a problem? I would explain to the nice person on the barrier that my journey ended when the train arrived so I no longer needed a ticket, and would they kindly open the gate.

Or was someone incorrect to say that the journey ended when the train arrived and the journey doesn't end until I have passed through the barrier, in which case they have to provide a receipt if they want to keep the ticket?

 

[bb21]

I am confused. What is your point?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sigh.....

The ticket is proof you have paid for the journey, the journey ended when you got to the destination station, the proof is needed when using the barrier at the destination station. The barriers keep the ticket because it is railway property. Rocket Science? Hardly....

 

[Merseysider]

Why would there be a problem? I would explain to the nice person on the barrier that my journey ended when the train arrived so I no longer needed a ticket, and would they kindly open the gate.

Or was someone incorrect to say that the journey ended when the train arrived and the journey doesn't end until I have passed through the barrier, in which case they have to provide a receipt if they want to keep the ticket?

See you in the Disputes section in a few weeks then

 

[drbdrb]

Sigh...

People not able to make up their mind.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

Or was someone incorrect to say that the journey ended when the train arrived and the journey doesn't end until I have passed through the barrier, in which case they have to provide a receipt if they want to keep the ticket?

I've clarified this question on here previously, so I will simply quote myself for those who missed them :

Bremme v Dubery in the Court of Appeal in 1963, Lord Parker C.J.:

"The expression 'and with intent to avoid payment thereof' must refer to a point in time when the person is still travelling on a railway, and the sole question is: does he cease to 'travel on a railway' when he gets out of the carriage onto the platform, or does he remain a traveller until at any rate he has reached the barrier, or, possibly more logically, until he has left railway premises?
The matter is in a very short compass. It is observed that the Act of 1889 is to be read with the RoRA 1840 onwards, and by the RoRA 1873 S.5 where the term 'railway' is defined as including 'every station, siding, wharfe or dock of or belonging to such railway and used for the purpose of public traffic'.

. . . .

It is sufficient to say that he does not cease to be a traveller when he alights at a platform."

[Christian Bremme was prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act S.5.3 following travel on the London Underground with a ticket costing 6d. The Appeal was heard on 14th November 1963 by Lord Parker LCJ, Winn J and Fenton Atkinson J.]

. . . . . they no longer have any use for it they leave their ticket on the table . There is nothing to stop you picking this up , claiming expenses and getting paid out if all your accounts department needs is a ticket that is relevant to the journey you are making .

Im not saying you could get away with picking up a load of random tickets and submit them . But there are always loads of discarded tickets on the floor on trains , stations etc . sure someone could find one that is relevant to their expenses . . . .

I wonder if you are aware of the work of forensic accountants? I suspect there would be several lines of enquiry from that scenario if one was to investigate that employer's records. and forensic accountants do seem to be in demand.

 

[Flamingo]

Forensic accountant? Sounds like the title for the most boring CSI spin-off yet...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Forensic accountant? Sounds like the title for the most boring CSI spin-off yet...

Yes, I come across them in giving complex evidence in Fraud cases. It doesn't seem to be a profession that can provide much fun or interest - unless the forensic accountant already has an obsessive fascination with details, numbers and unlikely possibiiities.

Come to think of it, these are qualities which might not be unfamiliar to a few on this forum?

 

[Flamingo]

Yes, I come across them in giving complex evidence in Fraud cases. It doesn't seem to be a profession that can provide much fun or interest - unless the forensic accountant already has an obsessive fascination with details, numbers and unlikely possibiiities.

Come to think of it, these are qualities which might not be unfamiliar to a few on this forum?

You might be on to something...

 

[Tibbs]

So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.

That should lead to some interesting conversations!

 

[island]

Sigh...

People not able to make up their mind.

This is nothing to do with people not making up their minds and everything to do with you being deliberately awkward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.

That should lead to some interesting conversations!

This is ludicrous. Any suggestion that passengers have to be allowed to retain their tickets at the barriers of their destination station in case there might be another inspection later on is so far-fetched that it is incomprehensible why anyone would make one.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Forensic accountant? Sounds like the title for the most boring CSI spin-off yet...

Nah, that was CSI: Ambleside.

As for receipts, this is what Northern Rail gave me at Bradford Interchange during the summer. Quite what that's supposed to help show, goodness only knows.

 

[Greenback]

What do you want/need it to show?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The type, origin and destination of the ticket might have been useful. It's not as though the receipt is too full to fit it on...

 

[maniacmartin]

I admit it is lacking a few details, such as the name of the company who sold the ticket. However, it does state the price and it is obviously for rail products.

I still don't get why it would need to show the actual ticket sold. Employer X wants you to go from A to B. You paid the price to go from A to B, and you got to B. Even if you did buy a totally different ticket that happened to have the same price, they've still got the end result they wanted, at the price they wanted.

Including 'VAT Reg No' but then not including a number is a bit odd. Perhaps it only prints the actual number if you bought something subject to VAT, which I understand that normal rail tickets are not.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course, all of this is great. But if the company you work for says you HAVE to provide the ticket for expenses and won't listen to the fact that receipts are just as good, then that is that. You have ensure that you keep your ticket (and potentially annoy station staff, and maybe break bylaws), or if you can't then you don't take the train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I admit it is lacking a few details, such as the name of the company who sold the ticket. However, it does state the price and it is obviously for rail products.

It's obviously for a ticket, it does at least say that much, but it doesn't show what ticket it was for. Normally the whole point of a receipt is to show what product or service was bought. This doesn't do that at all. It could be for anything.

 

[Hadders]

It's obviously for a ticket, it does at least say that much, but it doesn't show what ticket it was for. Normally the whole point of a receipt is to show what product or service was bought. This doesn't do that at all. It could be for anything.

The product purchased is clearly a rail ticket!

If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?

Why should rail journeys be subjected to a higher threshold?

 

[MikeWh]

The product purchased is clearly a rail ticket!

If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?

Why should rail journeys be subjected to a higher threshold?

Perhaps because they want to ensure you haven't wasted money by using first class. A car is a car is a car, but a train could be standard or first. And yes I know that sometimes first tickets can be cheaper than standard, but let's not go down that route.

 

[QJ]

The reason I am given for having to submit tickets not receipts is that

"... If we accepted receipts you have the potential to purchase a non discounted ticket, get a refund on that ticket and travel on a cheaper ticket whilst submitting the receipt for the higher priced ticket that you have kept."